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The Joe Rogan Experience

#2420 - Chris Masterjohn

with Chris Masterjohn

Published November 29, 2025
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About This Episode

Joe Rogan speaks with nutrition researcher Chris Masterjohn about how mitochondrial function underlies many aspects of health, aging, and disease. They discuss topics including creatine for brain and muscle energy, red light and sunlight for mitochondrial support, cautious use of supplements such as methylene blue and CoQ10, the long-term risks of seed oils, and how exercise variety, skill training, and good nutrition can promote healthy longevity. The conversation also covers thyroid health, iodine and selenium, cholesterol and statins, and the potential role of nattokinase in reducing clot-related heart attack and stroke risk.

Topics Covered

Mitochondrial function Longevity Cardiovascular disease Brain health Hormones and metabolism Cancer Food as medicine Ultra-processed foods Exercise and weight loss Traumatic brain injury

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Quick Takeaways

  • Masterjohn argues that mitochondrial energy production sits at the root of most health and disease processes, influencing sleep, aging, hormones, immunity, and repair.
  • Creatine is relevant far beyond muscle performance, with evidence it can support cognitive function, reduce the impact of sleep deprivation, and speed recovery from traumatic brain injury.
  • Red and near-infrared light can directly support mitochondrial function, and both systemic red light exposure and carotenoids like lutein and zeaxanthin play roles in eye health.
  • Seed oils rich in polyunsaturated fats appear to make tissues more vulnerable to oxidative damage and, in long-term trials, are associated with increased cancer and atherosclerosis despite lowering cholesterol.
  • Masterjohn emphasizes a "food first, pharma last" approach, using nose-to-tail animal foods, sufficient protein, sunlight, and diverse exercise (including skill, balance, and coordination) as the foundation before high-dose supplements or drugs.
  • Thyroid function depends on adequate energy status, protein, iodine, selenium, and other nutrients, and low iodine is still common despite assumptions that deficiency was solved.
  • High LDL cholesterol may often reflect sluggish metabolism and poor cholesterol turnover rather than a simple causal agent, and statins can impair mitochondrial function by inhibiting CoQ10 and related pathways.
  • Injury and concussion recovery draw heavily on mitochondrial reserves, meaning repeated trauma and inadequate recovery can accelerate functional decline far beyond the obvious local damage.
  • Nattokinase, an enzyme from the fermented soy food natto, can help break down blood clots and may reduce the risk of clot-triggered heart attacks and strokes in people with high clotting tendency or advanced plaque.
  • Long-term health and resilience are better supported by building broad physical skills and capacities (strength, endurance, agility, upside-down movement, rotation, cognitive challenge) than by focusing narrowly on VO2 max or one sport.

Podcast Notes

Introduction, turkey tryptophan myth, and post-feast sleepiness

Greeting and framing the discussion around diet after holidays

Joe introduces Chris and notes he has followed his content online for years[0:15]
They joke about bringing Chris on right after everyone "messed up" their diet on Thanksgiving[0:24]

Debunking the turkey tryptophan sleep myth

Chris explains the myth that turkey's tryptophan content causes post-Thanksgiving sleepiness originated with journalists in the 1980s[0:56]
• Journalists noticed everyone was tired after Thanksgiving and saw that turkey has tryptophan, a precursor to melatonin, and assumed causation
Turkey is not particularly high in tryptophan compared to other proteins[1:15]
• Chris notes that whey protein has more tryptophan than turkey
Tryptophan itself does not acutely make you tired when eaten in normal amounts[1:18]
• They joke that eating a slice of turkey for breakfast will not knock you out

Overeating and parasympathetic "rest and digest" response

Joe attributes post-Thanksgiving fatigue to overeating large amounts of stuffing, sides, and food in general[1:32]
Chris compares humans to lions: animals are alert and energized when hungry and then sleep after a big meal[1:53]
• He notes that the parasympathetic nervous system is called the "rest and digest" system, wiring us to be alert while seeking food and to relax after eating

Mitochondria, sleep, and creatine's role in brain energy

Mitochondria as root of health and purpose of deep sleep

Chris says his core thesis after 21 years in nutrition research is that mitochondrial function should be seen at the root of health and disease[2:59]
He frames deep sleep as a period where mitochondria "take a rest" and turn down their activity so the body can rebuild energy reserves[3:34]
• During deep sleep, mitochondrial engines reduce workload but do not shut off entirely, allowing ATP reserves to be replenished for maintenance, repair, and distribution of energy across the body

Creatine supplementation and sleep deprivation study

Chris describes a study where subjects were kept awake all night doing cognitive puzzles while drinking either placebo or 20 grams of creatine in a drink[4:09]
• Those receiving 20 grams of creatine performed better on brain puzzles and reported feeling less tired despite sleep deprivation
He explains mitochondria as power plants and creatine as the cellular power grid distributing energy (ATP) throughout the cell[4:39]
• By improving distribution, creatine can allow the brain to function longer before needing restorative sleep, effectively extending the time before energy depletion becomes limiting

Creatine beyond muscle performance

Joe notes that creatine was long thought of only as a muscle supplement but now is discussed in relation to cognitive function and sleep[5:09]
Chris mentions evidence that 20 grams of creatine for six months after traumatic brain injury doubled the rate of healing in some studies[5:34]
He says nearly every cell and tissue has the creatine system, not just muscles, suggesting wide-ranging potential benefits[5:59]
• Creatine is important in tissues with polarized energy demand (e.g., muscles that alternate between rest and intense work) and in long cells like retinal neurons
• He notes creatine is involved in processes like pumping stomach acid and sperm motility, implying effects far beyond bodybuilding

Red light therapy, eye health, and antioxidant nutrients

Red and near-infrared light on mitochondria

Chris says whenever you think of red light you should think of mitochondria, because red, near-infrared, and far-infrared light go straight into mitochondrial engines and help them produce more energy[10:20]
• These wavelengths also order the water structure inside mitochondria, making energy production easier
He cites a study where exposing people's chests (not eyes) to red light improved visual performance the next day even though their eyes were covered during exposure[10:53]
• This suggests systemic mitochondrial effects from red light can improve vision indirectly, not only via direct irradiation of the eyes

Lutein, zeaxanthin, and egg yolks for macular support

Joe reports using a red light bed plus a macular support supplement and feels his macular degeneration has stopped and partially reversed[11:52]
Chris explains lutein and zeaxanthin accumulate in the macula and are well known to protect against macular degeneration[11:52]
• He notes egg yolks from chickens fed marigolds are a particularly rich source of lutein and zeaxanthin, and the yolk fat improves absorption
He comments that vitamin A, vitamin C, N-acetylcysteine, and glutathione in such formulas all make sense as antioxidants and eye-supportive nutrients[13:42]

Glutathione: best source and supplements

Chris says the best glutathione is what your body makes from dietary protein[14:15]
If supplementing, he prefers straight glutathione over more expensive specialized forms, arguing the marginal absorption benefits may not justify much higher price[14:28]
• He is skeptical that liposomal glutathione is dramatically better, suggesting any improvement is likely modest (on the order of 10-20%) if present at all

Sunlight, vitamin D, tanning beds, and light therapy

Sunlight versus vitamin D supplements

Chris distinguishes between getting vitamin D from sun, food, or supplements and emphasizes that sun exposure has benefits beyond vitamin D production[15:14]
• He recommends about 30 minutes of morning sunlight (which does not make vitamin D) plus 10-15 minutes of unprotected afternoon sun for vitamin D and other benefits
He warns against skipping sun by relying solely on vitamin D pills because you would miss sunlight's other physiological effects[16:00]

Living in cloudy climates and use of tanning beds or light therapy

For places like Seattle in winter, Chris suggests using a lux meter app to verify outdoor brightness and, if needed, a bright light therapy lamp indoors for morning light[17:06]
He has personally used tanning beds sparingly (2-3 minutes) in winter to prevent eczema when UV index is too low for effective sun exposure[16:34]
• He cautions about skin damage risk from tanning beds but says using very short exposures purely for systemic effects is different from tanning to get dark
Different tanning beds use different wavelength mixes; to get more vitamin D-producing UVB, he suggests asking for a bed that mixes "surface and deep" tanning rays[17:54]

Methylene blue, mitochondrial detours, and individualized testing

Polarized opinions on methylene blue

Joe notes methylene blue is controversial, with some calling it a panacea and others questioning putting a dye in the body[18:44]
Chris says methylene blue can do wonders for mitochondria if you need it, but can really hurt you if you do not[19:03]
• He points out selection bias in online rave reviews, since people who feel worse are less likely to post enthusiastically
At higher doses (~10 mg and above), methylene blue also acts as a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (an antidepressant), which may explain some mood benefits[20:06]

How methylene blue alters mitochondrial electron flow

Chris explains mitochondria extract energy from carbs, amino acids, and fats by moving electrons through defined pathways to synthesize ATP[20:19]
He likens methylene blue to putting up "detour" signs on a main road: it grabs electrons in the pathway and shuttles them to alternative routes (a redox cycler)[20:57]
• If a segment of the main electron transport chain is blocked, these alternative routes can restore ATP production; but if the main route is fine, methylene blue just creates chaos and inefficiency
Animal experiments show that in healthy mitochondria without inhibitors, methylene blue lowers ATP production, but in mitochondria with specific inhibitors it raises ATP back toward normal[22:49]

Mitochondrial testing and adverse methylene blue response

Chris describes a client whose mood and fatigue worsened even at very low methylene blue doses and whose mitochondrial testing showed he was not a candidate for it[23:24]
• Testing showed his mitochondria were unusually good at using cysteine for energy, and Chris leveraged this with cysteine supplementation rather than methylene blue
The client had felt about 50% better on a steak-only carnivore diet and, after tailored mitochondrial support, reached about 75% of desired function without methylene blue[24:30]

Mitochondrial decline, aging, and lifestyle pillars

Mitochondrial dysfunction as aging itself

Chris argues mitochondrial dysfunction and aging are essentially the same thing, since mitochondria produce and repair everything in the body, including themselves[27:36]
He describes a vicious cycle where overtraining, illness, injuries, and poor nutrition cause small hits to mitochondrial capacity that then reduce their self-repair, leading to progressive decline[27:20]
On average, mitochondrial function declines about 1% per year from age 18 to 70-80, so by 70 the average person has about half the energy-producing capacity they had at 18[27:48]
• However, age explains only about 25% of mitochondrial function variance, implying about 75% is under individual control via lifestyle and environment

Pillar 1: Creatine intake and dietary sources

Chris recommends creatine optimization for everyone who is not eating 1-2 pounds of meat per day[29:21]
• He notes red meat and salmon (which he includes as "red" fish) are rich in creatine and that cooking meat well-done reduces creatine content, suggesting higher intake is needed when relying on white meat and well-cooked foods
He has tried to "steelman" a vegan diet that could avoid creatine supplementation, concluding it would require roughly 0.5 kg of tofu plus 0.5 kg of quinoa daily, which is impractical for most[30:55]

Pillar 2: Sunlight and circadian entrainment

Morning light entering the eyes signals the brain to wake mitochondria up and increase energy production for the day[31:32]
• Without morning sunlight, he believes people spend their mornings with suboptimal energy metabolism that accelerates the vicious cycle of aging
Red and infrared components of sunlight particularly benefit mitochondria; morning is the safest time to accumulate these wavelengths without burning[32:51]
He views in-home red-light devices and beds as useful on top of, not instead of, a base of natural sunlight exposure[33:18]

Pillar 3: Nutrition, deficiencies, and nose-to-tail eating

Chris challenges the idea that deficiencies are solved, citing surveys showing 93% of Americans get less than they need of at least one nutrient and 30% have blood markers of at least one deficiency[33:45]
• He thinks these numbers underestimate true need because standard recommendations do not account for individual higher requirements
He advises nose-to-tail animal consumption (including liver and bone broth), diversifying proteins (shellfish, fish, dairy), and aiming for at least one-third of the plate as protein (double the volume for eggs/dairy)[35:15]
He encourages broad carbohydrate variety, potentially excluding grains if something must be left out, and eating around 80% of food cooked or prepped at home[35:49]

Pillar 4: Comprehensive exercise for mitochondrial adaptation

Chris warns against reductionist focus on one exercise type for mitochondria; endurance training increases mitochondrial density in muscle, but sprinting and strength work rely more on liver and other tissues[36:44]
He argues people should train all needed functions: endurance, strength, mobility, agility, balance, proprioception, reaction, and cognitively demanding movement (e.g., team sports)[36:49]
He highlights the need for brain exercise such as memory and creativity training to preserve cognitive function into older age[37:59]

Exercise types, gymnasts vs cyclists, and skill-based longevity

Longevity stats among different athletes

Chris cites a study aggregating pro athletes where male gymnasts and pole vaulters lived about eight years longer than their general population peers[40:34]
Cyclists had only about two extra years, and some high-impact or injury-prone sports (e.g., sumo) showed reduced lifespan[40:45]
• The study adjusted mortality relative to the home country's general population and baseline mortality rates, making the longevity differences sport-specific

Why gymnasts and pole vaulters might outlive others

Chris notes gymnasts are typically short while pole vaulters are tall, so height differences cancel out, implying other factors are driving longevity[40:34]
He suspects functionality of movement, whole-body coordination, and skill-intensive explosive actions train aspects of health that simple cardio (like cycling) misses[40:55]
He references rodent research showing that stretching reduced tumor growth, linking mechanical tissue states to immune function and cancer risk[42:53]
• He connects this with data on T cells needing a certain extracellular stiffness to generate activation energy and with Crohn's disease work showing that liquid diets reduce mechanical intestinal pressure and inflammation
He speculates that upside-down positions and flipping in gymnastics and pole vaulting may aid fluid circulation and immune function, though he notes this is hypothesis, not proven fact[44:16]

Skill, variety, and maintaining peak function across the lifespan

Chris argues people focus too much on reverse-engineering what to avoid losing at 80 instead of maximizing peak capacity (e.g., bone mass, memory) in their 20s and 30s[45:06]
He advocates trying a different sport each year when young to uncover untrained capacities (e.g., rotation, balance) and then integrating those elements into training[45:55]
Examples from his own life include realizing poor jump rope skill and dizziness with forward/backward rolls, then adding daily rolls and handstand progressions to his routine[46:31]
He maintains basic capacities with small daily practices, such as doing 50 uninterrupted jump ropes each morning to preserve coordination gains[48:12]

Injuries, concussions, and the systemic cost of recovery

Accumulated injuries in sports and mitochondrial toll

Joe raises concerns that martial artists with repeated hand fractures, joint surgeries, and weight cuts incur not just local damage but systemic costs[59:03]
Chris agrees and reiterates that healing from injuries diverts mitochondrial energy from maintaining "home base," accelerating long-term decline[59:25]
He suggests that if one's goal is longevity or lifelong strength, injury prevention should be the top priority, even above short-term performance gains[1:00:20]

Concussions, knockouts, and vulnerability

Joe notes that fighters often return too soon after a knockout and then get knocked out again, believing they can "fix" mistakes while underestimating increased vulnerability[1:03:03]
Chris emphasizes that the brain, while small, uses disproportionate energy; healing brain injury heavily taxes systemic energy and supports Joe's point that the whole body becomes more vulnerable[1:04:01]
He reiterates that creatine (at around 20 g/day in studies) has evidence of doubling healing rates in traumatic brain injury and would be a logical component of recovery support[1:04:43]

CoQ10, high-dose vitamins, and "food first, pharma last"

CoQ10 as a naturally occurring mitochondrial component

Chris contrasts methylene blue, which began as a dye and first drug, with CoQ10, which is produced endogenously and obtained from foods like heart tissue[1:08:24]
He personally eats a ground meat blend that includes liver, heart, and kidney to get CoQ10 and other nutrients, and recommends eating heart before reaching for high-dose CoQ10 capsules[1:08:24]
Clinical trials suggest that, on average, 100-200 mg/day of CoQ10 improves glucose, insulin, and blood pressure, whereas 400 mg/day worsens these markers, with large individual variability[1:09:37]

Case study: amenorrhea reversed with high-dose CoQ10

Chris describes a client who lost her period at 28 and had 10 years of amenorrhea despite numerous functional medicine and homeopathic interventions[1:12:59]
Mitochondrial testing suggested she needed very high CoQ10; at 700-800 mg/day her period returned within two weeks after a decade without cycles[1:13:41]
• He notes she had previously taken standard 100-200 mg doses in supplement bundles without effect, reinforcing the value of individualized dosing based on testing

Defining health via energy, anxiety, libido, and sleep

Chris proposes that true health means having abundant energy to pursue goals and enough adaptability to handle life changes[1:15:08]
He suggests using a high energy-to-anxiety ratio and strong libido as practical North Stars for assessing metabolic health, along with deep restorative sleep[1:15:25]
He warns that mitochondrial decline may manifest not as fatigue but as poor control over energy allocation, leading to anxiety, racing thoughts, and insomnia instead of productive output[1:15:57]

High-dose thiamine and the importance of real-time markers

Chris recounts a case where a woman with severe fatigue was put on 1,100 mg/day of thiamine; she gained some energy but developed worsening dizziness and new motor dysfunction[1:19:41]
Later mitochondrial testing showed she had blockages in pathways most stimulated by high-dose thiamine, explaining why it made her worse[1:20:00]
He recommends self-testing lactate (along with glucose and ketones) when experimenting with strong supplements: rising lactate at rest suggests added metabolic stress rather than benefit[1:21:20]
• He analogizes food to a diversified investment portfolio that protects against ignorance, citing Warren Buffett's statement that diversification protects those who do not know exactly what they are doing

Seed oils, cholesterol, statins, thyroid, and nattokinase

Seed oils as tissue vulnerability enhancers

Chris characterizes seed oils as substances that make tissues more vulnerable to damage, especially over long timeframes, rather than directly damaging them acutely[1:28:53]
He argues that many pro-seed oil commentators focus on short 7-12 week trials and ignore older 5-8 year randomized trials conducted in the 1950s-1970s[1:30:15]
In the LA Veterans Administration Hospital Study (mean age 65), seed oils initially lowered heart disease risk but over years led to more cancer and a late divergence toward higher total mortality[1:30:49]
• He notes authors of that study concluded that trials needed to last well beyond eight years to resolve toxicity questions, yet subsequent research shifted to short-term studies instead
He adds that it takes roughly four years for tissue fatty acid composition to fully reflect a switch from butter/olive oil to corn oil, and further years for secondary effects like vitamin E depletion to manifest[1:32:44]

Oxidized PUFAs, LDL, and buried trial data

Chris explains that LDL particles carry cholesterol inside but have polyunsaturated fatty acids (from seed oils) on their outer membrane; when these PUFAs oxidize, the immune system recognizes them as toxic[1:34:54]
Immune cells then engulf and sequester these damaged particles to protect blood vessels, and this quarantine process is what forms atherosclerotic plaque[1:35:16]
He cites the Minnesota Coronary Survey, where long-unpublished data from boxes in a deceased investigator's basement showed double the atherosclerosis in the seed oil group and a paradoxical rise in heart disease as cholesterol fell[1:36:34]

Cholesterol levels, metabolism, and statins

Chris acknowledges that higher cholesterol in younger adults prospectively predicts more heart disease, but he sees this as a marker of sluggish metabolism and poor cholesterol utilization rather than cholesterol being inherently toxic[1:37:48]
He points out that converting cholesterol into bile acids, adrenal and sex hormones, and brain synapses all depend on good mitochondrial energy status in tissues like the liver and hypothalamus[1:39:22]
Statins, by inhibiting CoQ10 synthesis and other mitochondrial pathways, lower cholesterol but also impair energy production and can increase risks such as diabetes and muscle damage[1:41:14]
He insists that optimizing mitochondrial function and nutrition should always precede decisions about statins or hormone therapies, likening drugs to a house that should be built on a solid foundation[1:41:56]

Thyroid hormone, iodine, and modern deficiencies

Thyroid hormone is constructed from the amino acid tyrosine and iodine; thus adequate protein and iodine intake are prerequisites for healthy thyroid function[1:42:04]
Iodine content in land foods varies dramatically with soil; seafood and seaweed are reliable sources because rainfall washes minerals into the ocean[1:43:12]
Chris personally adds about a quarter teaspoon of kelp powder daily to his food to ensure iodine sufficiency, effectively self-fortifying his diet[1:44:58]
He notes that large breasts can increase iodine needs due to breast tissue acting as an iodine sink, and that environmental bromine and fluoride exposures further raise iodine requirements[1:45:36]
He criticizes the medical assumption that iodine deficiency is solved, pointing out that iodized salt worked until people were told to avoid salt for heart health, unintentionally reintroducing deficiency and goiter[1:47:11]
He states that every woman on thyroid hormone he has seen who was tested had low iodine, and none had been tested previously[1:47:22]

Nattokinase and clot-driven heart attacks and strokes

Chris clarifies that most heart attacks and strokes are not caused by a plaque slowly choking off blood flow, but by plaque rupture that triggers an acute blood clot which blocks the artery[1:49:14]
He explains that plaque tends to bulge outward rather than inward to preserve lumen size, while repeated inflammation and collagen breakdown on its surface create microtears covered by scar tissue[1:50:08]
Nattokinase is an enzyme from the fermented soy food natto that helps break down fibrin clots, potentially reducing total clot burden and lowering the chance that a rupture will result in a fatal occluding clot[1:51:08]
• He notes that natto also provides vitamin K2, which helps prevent calcium deposits that weaken plaques, so eating natto itself fits his "food first" principle even more than taking nattokinase alone

Closing and where to find Chris Masterjohn

Contact information and sign-off

Chris shares that he writes a newsletter at chrismasterjohnphd.substack.com and offers mitochondrial testing information at mito.me[2:22:12]
Joe thanks him and expresses interest in doing another conversation in the future[2:22:10]

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Optimizing mitochondrial function should be a central health priority, because mitochondria power every process of maintenance, repair, and adaptation in the body and their decline largely defines aging.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your daily routine are you most likely compromising your mitochondrial energy production (e.g., sleep, nutrition, overtraining, light exposure)?
  • • How could you adjust your habits over the next month to better support your mitochondria through sunlight, protein intake, and smarter training?
  • • What specific metric (energy levels, sleep quality, exercise performance) will you track to see if mitochondrial-supportive changes are working for you?
2

A "food first, pharma last" strategy reduces the risk of imbalances and unintended side effects compared to immediately jumping to high-dose supplements or drugs.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which of your current health concerns are you trying to manage primarily with pills or powders instead of foundational food and lifestyle changes?
  • • How might shifting one of those interventions back to a food-based or behavioral solution improve both safety and sustainability for you?
  • • What is one supplement or medication you rely on today that you could start backing up with a stronger nutritional or lifestyle foundation this week?
3

Health is better gauged by how effectively you can direct abundant energy (low anxiety, strong libido, deep sleep, and productive focus) than by the absence of formal diagnoses.

Reflection Questions:

  • • When you look at your last few weeks, how often did you feel wired but unproductive versus calm, focused, and effective?
  • • In what ways could you change your schedule, workload, or recovery practices to shift your energy from anxiety and rumination toward meaningful output?
  • • What daily check-in could you use (e.g., rating energy, anxiety, and libido) to catch early signs that your energy is being misallocated?
4

Diverse, skill-based physical activity (strength, endurance, agility, rotation, upside-down movement, and reaction) builds more robust long-term health than focusing on a single metric like VO2 max.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which dimensions of movement (balance, rotation, power, coordination, skill) are currently missing from your exercise habits?
  • • How could you experiment with a new sport or movement practice in the next quarter to expose and train capacities you have been neglecting?
  • • What simple weekly or daily drill (e.g., jump rope, rolls, handstands, balance work) could you adopt to maintain and slowly expand your movement skillset over time?
5

Interventions that look good on short-term markers (like lowering cholesterol or boosting a biomarker with high-dose supplements) can backfire long term if they ignore underlying energy metabolism and tissue vulnerability.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where are you currently using lab numbers or single biomarkers as proof that an intervention is working, without considering long-term tradeoffs?
  • • How might your decisions change if you prioritized improving underlying resilience (mitochondrial function, nutrient status, injury prevention) over optimizing one lab value?
  • • What conversation do you need to have with a healthcare provider to better understand the long-term implications of a drug or supplement you are using now?

Episode Summary - Notes by Casey

#2420 - Chris Masterjohn
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