#2419 - John Lisle
Historian John Lisle discusses the history of CIA mind control research, focusing on MKUltra, its OSS roots, and figures like Sidney Gottlieb, George White, and psychiatrist Ewen Cameron. He explains how the program was structured, the drugs and psychological techniques that were tested, the disastrous impacts on unwitting subjects, and the near-total lack of oversight. The conversation expands into government secrecy, real versus fabricated conspiracies, cognitive dissonance, cult dynamics, social media disinformation, and how human psychology shapes both science and belief in conspiracies.
#2411 - Gavin de Becker
Joe Rogan talks with criminologist Gavin about historical and modern government operations, pharmaceutical industry behavior, and public health policy. They discuss CIA covert programs like Project Gladio, patterns of propaganda and information control, and parallels between the AIDS crisis and the COVID-19 response. Gavin argues that citizens must adopt deep skepticism toward government, media, and pharmaceutical narratives, using examples from vaccine policy, Agent Orange, baby powder litigation, population control documents, and the war in Ukraine.
650. The Doctor Won't See You Now
Stephen Dubner examines the growing shortage of physicians in the United States, exploring both demand-side pressures like an aging population and supply-side constraints in medical education and training. Former CDC director and infectious disease physician Rochelle Walensky outlines workforce data, training bottlenecks, burnout, debt, and rural access problems, while economic historian Karen Clay explains how the early 20th-century Flexner Report raised medical standards but also sharply reduced the number of medical schools and doctors, with complex long-term consequences. Throughout, practicing and former physicians describe how bureaucracy, insurance rules, changing public attitudes, and alternative career options are reshaping the medical profession.