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The Joe Rogan Experience

#2411 - Gavin de Becker

with Gavin de Becker

Published November 13, 2025
Visit Podcast Website

About This Episode

Joe Rogan talks with criminologist Gavin about historical and modern government operations, pharmaceutical industry behavior, and public health policy. They discuss CIA covert programs like Project Gladio, patterns of propaganda and information control, and parallels between the AIDS crisis and the COVID-19 response. Gavin argues that citizens must adopt deep skepticism toward government, media, and pharmaceutical narratives, using examples from vaccine policy, Agent Orange, baby powder litigation, population control documents, and the war in Ukraine.

Topics Covered

Government secrecy Media trust and propaganda COVID-19 response and public health policy Vaccines Pharmaceutical industry corruption AIDS and HIV research controversy Bioweapons research Population control policy CIA covert operations War and empire

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Quick Takeaways

  • Gavin describes Project Gladio as a CIA-managed stay-behind network in Europe that conducted terrorist attacks and assassinations in allied countries to influence elections and suppress left-leaning movements.
  • Both speakers argue that propaganda against domestic populations is now legal and ubiquitous, and that information control has become central to modern governance and crisis management.
  • Gavin draws parallels between the AIDS crisis and COVID-19, highlighting disputed science, toxic treatments like AZT, and severe professional retaliation against dissenting scientists such as Peter Duesberg.
  • They contend that major vaccine safety questions have been managed through institutional processes designed to avoid finding causation, using Agent Orange, SIDS, Gulf War Syndrome, and baby powder as templates.
  • The conversation details extensive criminal histories and fines of major pharmaceutical companies and questions why their products, especially liability-free vaccines, are trusted by default.
  • Specific childhood diseases like measles, tetanus, and polio are discussed with cited statistics to argue that actual risks are far lower than most parents assume and that some vaccine risks may outweigh benefits for children.
  • Gavin claims U.S. policy documents such as the Kissinger Report explicitly framed population reduction in selected countries as foreign policy, allegedly using medical and reproductive interventions to achieve it.
  • They criticize gain-of-function and bioweapons research, pointing to historical programs and suggesting some modern outbreaks and chronic diseases may be linked to such research.
  • Gavin presents Volodymyr Zelensky as a constructed political figure whose TV show narrative and oligarch-backed media campaign were used to propel him into the Ukrainian presidency before the current war.
  • Both conclude that COVID-era censorship and coercion damaged institutional credibility but also revealed who is willing to question authority, and they advocate for personal skepticism and shared evidence-based discussions.

Podcast Notes

Introduction and Gavin's criminology perspective

Setting up the conversation

Joe opens the show and notes Gavin arrived with many notes and topics to discuss[0:15]
Gavin emphasizes he is a criminologist, not a doctor or scientist, and approaches issues through evidence and behavior rather than medicine[0:29]
He signals a deep dive into pharma but first wants to discuss historical covert operations[0:36]

Project Gladio and post-World War II covert operations

Overview of Project Gladio

Gavin asks if Joe knows Project Gladio; Joe does not[0:56]
He explains that after World War II the OSS (predecessor to CIA) decided to leave behind armed networks in Europe rather than bring all U.S. soldiers home[1:14]
Hundreds of operatives were instructed to hide weapons and stay dormant as stay-behind forces intended to counter communism and socialism[1:31]

Alleged Gladio operations in Europe

Gavin claims these stay-behind units carried out terror incidents in allied countries rather than just resisting the Soviets[1:41]
• Example: bombing of a train station in Bologna, Italy, injuring about 285 people and killing 85, which he says was funded and operated by the CIA under Gladio
• Example: 1989 assassination of a journalist investigating Gladio, allegedly shot twice in the head
• Example: bombing at Oktoberfest in Germany where 17 people were killed
He argues attacks were timed to influence elections by pushing public opinion toward more right-leaning or authoritarian governments that U.S. intelligence preferred[2:26]

Aldo Moro and political assassinations

Gavin describes the kidnapping and killing of former Italian prime minister Aldo Moro[2:38]
• Moro and five bodyguards were attacked; the bodyguards were killed, he was kidnapped, and later found shot in the head in the trunk of a car
• Gavin states this was a Project Gladio operation allegedly run by the United States against an ally

Scale and official reaction to Gladio

Gavin says Gladio eventually involved a 20,000-person army spread across Europe[2:56]
He urges listeners to verify Gladio via Wikipedia and emphasizes he is not asking for blind belief[3:04]
He notes Gladio was acknowledged to have ended in 1990 during George H. W. Bush's presidency, and Bush initially denied it[3:21]
• An Italian prime minister pursued exposure of Gladio, and the evidence became strong enough that some convicted terrorists were released after courts accepted the CIA-run narrative

Oversight, skepticism, and continuation of war

Lack of oversight and public credulity

Joe asks if Gladio was a precaution that spun out of control due to no oversight[4:00]
Gavin agrees oversight is central and argues it must come from public skepticism about official stories[4:26]
• He says if people unquestioningly accept narratives like terrorist groups killing Aldo Moro without skepticism, there can be no effective oversight

U.S. empire and never-ending wars

Gavin notes the U.S. rarely truly ends wars; after WWII it left hundreds of thousands of troops in Germany, Japan, and South Korea[5:14]
He frames this as how empires operate, shifting from open war to secret operations like Gladio rather than fully demobilizing[5:26]
He imagines American outrage if foreign powers carried out terror attacks on U.S. soil, implying that is analogous to what Gladio did in Europe[5:40]

Gavin's stated purpose

He stresses his examples are drawn from mainstream sources like Wikipedia, and his criminology approach is to lay out evidence systematically[5:56]
His main purpose is to encourage Americans to be skeptical, arguing that without skepticism, government power dominates citizens instead of the reverse[6:17]

Domestic propaganda, media operations, and social media manipulation

Legalization of domestic propaganda

Joe references changes to the Smith-Mundt Act during the Obama administration that made it legal to use propaganda on American citizens[6:40]
He argues this permanently blurred truth and reality because intelligence agencies can legally lie to the public in the name of national security[6:56]

Project Mockingbird and media influence

Gavin recalls Project Mockingbird, in which hundreds of American journalists were on the CIA payroll or in close collaboration to float narratives domestically[7:12]
He notes it was supposedly shut down by the Church Committee but questions whether it truly ended or just changed names[7:26]
• He points out that in a global information environment, propaganda floated abroad quickly reaches U.S. audiences anyway

Saudi use of Twitter and bot networks

Gavin describes his work on an investigation into Saudi misuse of Twitter around 2018-2019[7:56]
• Twitter canceled about 5,000 accounts that were fake bots promoting state messaging
• After the bots were removed, Gavin says Saudi authorities had around 40,000 real people in their homes pushing coordinated daily messages such as attacks on Jeff Bezos
He argues that controlling perceptions of young people is a classic state objective and that every regime throughout history cultivates a national narrative[9:14]

National narratives and religion as control mechanisms

Gavin gives examples of national narratives: in the U.S., the idea that anyone can become president and the government works for the people; in India, a focus on the next life; in England, class structure and royal spectacle[9:19]
He characterizes religion as historically the biggest tool for controlling populations[9:56]
He claims the U.S. government has become hostile toward churches and other power centers, citing COVID policies where liquor stores and big-box retailers could open but churches were restricted, even outdoors[10:08]

COVID lockdowns, social division, and governmental power

Restrictions on gathering and cultural life

Joe notes that Los Angeles outlawed outdoor dining and even outdoor comedy shows during COVID, questioning whether this was really about targeting alternative power centers like churches[12:56]
Gavin argues restrictions on concerts, beaches, and shared leisure spaces reduce opportunities for people to relate across political lines and instead facilitate division[14:02]
• He describes how at concerts or beaches people typically enjoy themselves without fixating on others' political affiliations, which is incompatible with strategies that rely on polarization

Division as a source of power

Gavin states directly that division is a source of power for governments, and COVID lockdowns created an unprecedented opportunity to divide and control populations[13:57]
He differentiates between the COVID disease and the lockdown response, claiming the lockdown impact is historically enormous, comparable to all world wars combined in terms of government control lesson[15:26]
He says nearly every Western country placed citizens under a form of house arrest, shuttered hundreds of thousands of businesses, and demonstrated that governments could do anything they wanted in an emergency[15:07]

Event 201, incentives, and tyranny as historical norm

Event 201 tabletop exercise

Gavin describes Event 201, a 2019 tabletop pandemic exercise organized by Bill Gates with CIA, Chinese CDC, military, and media participants[16:08]
• He says the exercise focused not on health interventions but on controlling information during a hypothetical pandemic, and it occurred shortly before COVID emerged

Aligned incentives without explicit conspiracy

Gavin argues one does not need a single conspiratorial meeting to explain coordinated behavior; shared incentives lead actors to converge on strategies like making sanitizer, spacing stickers, and other pandemic products[17:16]
He notes human nature in large centralized governments trends toward tyranny, framing freedom as a brief historical anomaly in Western Europe and the U.S. before 2020[18:02]

Letting go of comforting illusions

Gavin says personal suffering in recent years has come from resistance to relinquishing childhood beliefs that courts are fair, the Constitution is always followed, and government protects freedom regardless of circumstance[18:37]
He insists people must be willing to believe distressing historical truths like Gladio and similar operations instead of reflexively dismissing them[18:50]

AIDS, HIV, AZT, and dissenting scientists

Joe's experience with Duesberg and AIDS skepticism

Joe describes the difficulty regular people have processing deep-state operations and conspiracies, noting that most people are busy with work and family and have limited time to investigate[19:02]
He recounts learning about Peter Duesberg's challenges to the HIV-AIDS orthodoxy from an article in Spin magazine and from 'conspiratorially minded' friends[20:36]
Joe recalls hosting Duesberg years ago and facing intense backlash, as critics argued that so many doctors could not possibly be wrong about HIV as the cause of AIDS[21:26]

AZT, drug toxicity, and profit motives

Joe explains AZT was originally a chemotherapy drug abandoned because it killed patients faster than their cancers, yet it was repurposed as a long-term AIDS treatment[20:26]
He emphasizes chemotherapy is typically used short term, whereas AZT was prescribed indefinitely, which he views as unprecedented and dangerous[21:34]
Joe notes that when AZT use declined, AIDS deaths declined, challenging the narrative that improved drugs alone reduced mortality[20:51]

Duesberg's arguments and patient anecdotes

Gavin asserts there was a darker reason for heavy AZT dosing: it produced the same symptoms patients were said to die from, keeping AIDS case numbers high[22:26]
He references the documentary 'House of Numbers', saying it shows Fauci and Redfield promoting a strict HIV-causes-AIDS stance, while other scientists, including a Nobel laureate, had more nuanced views[23:26]
• Gavin mentions that even the Nobel Prize winner for discovering HIV believed one could have HIV without AIDS and AIDS without HIV
He shares a personal story of his son who tested HIV positive, briefly tried modern antiretroviral therapy, felt unwell, then stopped and has remained healthy without medication[26:00]

Drug use, poppers, and diagnostic inconsistencies

Joe recounts Duesberg's point that many early AIDS patients were heavy drug users whose immune systems were compromised by lifestyle, antibiotics, and substances like poppers[27:14]
Gavin notes 'House of Numbers' documents that AIDS definitions and diagnostics varied radically between Africa and the U.S., including questionnaire items about gay sex in African diagnoses[27:44]
Gavin describes how an HIV test he once took turned out to be highly interpretive rather than binary, challenging his assumption that it worked like a pregnancy test[28:35]

Career destruction of dissenters

Gavin says Duesberg, once on track for a Nobel Prize and a tenured professor at Berkeley, lost all grants and was relegated to obscurity for challenging HIV orthodoxy[30:49]
He quotes Duesberg joking that scientists are prostitutes for funding, but others 'go all the way', highlighting the pressures to conform[31:18]
Gavin reports that Duesberg is now being cared for by his son and that he personally offered support, describing Duesberg as a hero[31:18]

COVID vaccines, myocarditis, and sudden deaths

Myocarditis cases and youth deaths

Gavin argues that by now vaccine manufacturers and regulators must be aware of vaccine-induced myocarditis and associated sudden deaths in young people[33:31]
• He mentions early coroners' reports in two states attributing teenage boys' sudden deaths in bed directly to vaccine-induced myocarditis, which he believes should have been a major news story

Internet, information control, and prior pandemics

Gavin notes swine flu episodes in 1976 and 2009 as pre-internet examples of problematic public health responses[34:19]
He says the internet is a double-edged sword: it enables truth-telling and alternative voices, but also allows governments to refine population-level information control[35:10]

Vaccine mandates, risk tradeoffs, and specific disease statistics

General framework for evaluating vaccines

Gavin says evaluating any drug or vaccine requires asking how likely one is to get the disease, how severe it is, whether the product works, and what harms it can cause[38:09]
He asserts many parents would never let a stranger inject an unknown substance into their baby, yet effectively do so by trusting mass vaccination without understanding contents or prior reactions[39:38]

Tetanus risk and vaccination approach

Gavin states tetanus is not transmissible and is caused by a specific bacterium, not by rust on nails as many believe[52:33]
He cites U.S. data that over a decade only 13 people, all elderly, died of tetanus and 154 contracted it, arguing the risk is extremely low in developed regions[52:05]
He points out that tetanus vaccination can be given at the time of injury after proper wound cleaning, challenging the logic of multiple prophylactic doses in infancy[53:42]

Polio statistics and vaccine-derived cases

Gavin quotes CDC information that 99% of people infected with polio have no symptoms, and typical symptoms resemble a mild cold[54:11]
He says there were zero polio deaths worldwide in the prior year and about 500 cases of paralytic polio, roughly half of whom recovered[54:29]
He emphasizes that about 97% of recent paralytic polio cases globally are vaccine-derived, citing CDC data[55:07]

Measles, mumps, and survival rates

Gavin claims that for all classical childhood vaccine-targeted diseases, the survival rate for a healthy American child is 100%[58:17]
He notes that for 22 years there were zero measles deaths in the U.S., and when Texas recently reported two deaths, he suggests questions remain about comorbidities and treatment quality[1:00:24]
He says the death rate from tetanus in children is about one in 154 million Americans, framing this as extremely low risk compared to vaccine side effects[1:01:11]

Mumps vaccine effectiveness

Gavin mentions a CBS report stating that most mumps cases occurred in vaccinated individuals and clarifies that 'most' meant about 94%[58:15]
He questions whether a product that fails 94% of the time in preventing target disease can be considered effective[58:43]

Institute of Medicine, Agent Orange, and debunking methods

Agent Orange toxicity and data suppression

Gavin recounts U.S. testing of Agent Orange containing dioxin on 40 monkeys, with 37 dying within a week, showing extreme toxicity[1:03:29]
He says this study was classified top secret and hidden for decades while Agent Orange was widely used in Vietnam[1:03:02]
He describes veterans returning with severe illnesses and deformed children, yet government delaying acknowledgment and compensation[1:04:27]

Institute of Medicine's 'more studies needed' pattern

Gavin says the Institute of Medicine (IOM), a private body within the National Academies, conducted multiple Agent Orange reviews (2001, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2012, 2014) and repeatedly concluded 'more studies needed'[1:05:22]
He frames this as a deliberate strategy to delay resolution until affected veterans either die or give up, and asserts the same pattern was used for Gulf War Syndrome and other issues[1:06:50]
He cites Admiral Zumwalt, who ordered Agent Orange use and whose son died from exposure, testifying that government and industry intentionally withheld and manipulated evidence of harm[1:07:21]

Extending the pattern to vaccines and other harms

Gavin lists topics IOM has 'debunked' or downplayed using similar methods: vaccines and autism, SIDS, Gulf War Syndrome, silicone breast implants, anthrax vaccines, burn pits, and baby powder cancers[1:07:13]
He describes SIDS as a residual category for unexplained infant deaths and mocks IOM's claim that while they do not know what causes SIDS, they know vaccines do not[1:08:15]

Pharmaceutical industry misconduct and fines

Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson, GSK, Merck, Eli Lilly

Gavin catalogs major fines and settlements paid by large pharma companies for illegal marketing, kickbacks, false claims, and concealment of risks[1:11:45]
• He notes Pfizer paid what was then the largest criminal fine in U.S. history in 2009 plus other penalties in 2004 and later for fraudulent marketing and kickbacks
• He says Johnson & Johnson paid multi-billion-dollar penalties related to opioids and baby powder, while still publicly claiming their talc did not cause cancer
• He recounts Eli Lilly paying large settlements over Zyprexa, with alleged side effects including severe weight gain, movement disorders, stroke, heart attack, and sudden death, yet the drug produced about $40 billion in revenue
He states that over 31 years pharma manufacturers paid about $62 billion in fines while earning trillions in revenue, calling them repeat offenders[1:14:23]
Joe recalls Vioxx killing tens of thousands of people; Gavin says estimates may reach 200,000 deaths and emphasizes profit far exceeded penalties[2:48:51]

Vaccine ingredients, adjuvants, and pediatric practice

Historical and modern vaccine components

Gavin sketches early vaccine practices using cow pus, horse pus, rabbit spinal cords, duck embryos, chicken blood, human bile, rat spleens, and boiled pig skin[1:18:34]
He then lists ingredients he says are present in modern childhood vaccines: gelatin from boiled pig skin, chicken embryo protein, cow fetal blood, DNA from human fetuses, oil from shark livers, proteins from worm ovaries, DNA from monkey kidneys[1:17:50]
He further cites chemical additives like formaldehyde, polysorbate 80, potassium chloride, sodium borate, Triton X, aluminum, and until recently ethyl mercury[1:19:02]
He highlights potassium chloride as the third drug in lethal injection protocols and questions injecting any amount into infants[1:18:46]

Adjuvants and mercury rationale

Gavin explains that vaccines need adjuvants to irritate the body and provoke an immune response, and argues mercury and aluminum fulfill this role rather than merely acting as preservatives[1:20:03]
He says industry claims ethyl mercury is safer than methyl mercury are misleading because ethyl mercury clears blood faster but accumulates in the brain for years[1:19:56]

Pediatric incentives and lack of individualized decisions

Gavin states pediatricians financially depend on vaccination and wellness visits and would struggle economically if parents rarely brought healthy children in[1:21:36]
He supports Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s proposal for "joint decision-making" where parents and pediatricians share vaccine choices, but says organized pediatrics opposes it[1:22:40]
He notes that in the past, mercury-containing flu shots remained available even after other childhood vaccines removed mercury, without pediatricians informing parents of the choice[1:23:16]

BCG vaccine as an exception

Gavin says he is not categorically anti-vaccine and praises the BCG vaccine for tuberculosis as a 100-year-old product with broad health benefits, used in most countries but not the U.S.[1:23:30]

Vaccines, autism, and Institute of Medicine closed-session transcripts

Pre-committed conclusions on autism

Gavin recounts leaked transcripts from an Institute of Medicine closed session on vaccines and autism where members assert at the outset that they will not conclude vaccines cause autism[1:25:07]
He quotes lines about the 'point of no return' being that the panel will not recommend pulling vaccines, changing schedules, or compensating injured parties[1:26:27]
He describes committee members focusing obsessively on how to phrase categories and causality thresholds rather than on scientific evidence of harm[1:26:27]

Language games and dismissal of case reports

Gavin mocks passages where members propose convoluted category systems and phrasing such as 'inadequate to accept or reject' to avoid acknowledging causation[1:26:55]
He notes a member dismissing hundreds of parental reports of normal children regressing after MMR vaccinations as if they were irrelevant to the committee's work[1:26:39]
He says the panel ultimately recommended against further study of vaccine-autism links, which became the basis for claims that the issue had been debunked[1:27:49]

Population reduction policy, tetanus fertility campaigns, and the Kissinger Report

Kissinger Report and foreign policy

Gavin describes the 1972 Kissinger Report, produced by CIA and USAID, which he says advocated reducing population in 12 foreign countries as formal U.S. policy[1:30:59]
He summarizes methods listed in the report, including medicalizing birth control, paying men for vasectomies, and developing temporary fertility-reducing injections for men[1:30:25]
He notes the report was made a presidential directive by President Ford in 1975[1:30:25]

Tetanus and HCG fertility interference

Gavin and Joe discuss reports that tetanus vaccines in countries like India, Peru, and parts of Africa were combined with HCG, a hormone that can induce infertility[1:30:56]
They note these campaigns disproportionately targeted women under the guise of protecting them from tetanus and talk about forced sterilization surgeries funded by the U.S. in India and Peru[1:31:01]
Gavin says the WHO had long worked on HCG-based fertility control and that Bill Gates has publicly spoken about using vaccines in population control strategies[1:31:01]

Bioweapons research, gain-of-function, Lyme disease, and monkeypox

Gain-of-function and dual-use ambitions

Gavin criticizes gain-of-function research, calling it 'mad science' to deliberately make pathogens more dangerous on the rationale of anticipation and defense[1:33:56]
He cites Peter Daszak's proposals to create vaccines that would allow U.S. troops to be immune to engineered bioweapons, describing it as science-fiction-style war planning[1:34:06]

Lyme disease and Plum Island

Joe recounts past controversy over claims that Lyme disease might be linked to weapons research at Plum Island, where infected ticks were studied to destabilize enemy populations[1:36:16]
He notes critics now push back by saying Lyme-like diseases existed historically, but he emphasizes the modern ubiquity and chronic nature of Lyme as a new phenomenon[1:36:50]
Gavin points to documentation that infected ticks were dropped over Cuba as a bioweapon, and to Rockefeller-funded experiments making polio more virulent in New York before a major outbreak[1:36:16]

Monkeypox / mpox and vaccine reuse

They discuss a recent monkeypox outbreak mostly linked to promiscuous gay men and note that four deaths were reported, with attempts to market it as a broad threat[1:39:00]
Gavin says the smallpox vaccine, which has extensive cardiac warnings including for common conditions like diabetes and heart disease, was repurposed for monkeypox vaccination[1:40:05]
He notes campaigns to rename monkeypox as 'mpox' to sound more serious and that CDC suggested two-dose regimens despite limited cases[1:39:36]

Zelensky, Ukraine war, and modern proxy warfare

Zelensky as a constructed political figure

Gavin outlines Volodymyr Zelensky's trajectory from apolitical comedian to star of a TV show called 'Servant of the People' in which his character becomes president[1:42:13]
He alleges oligarch Kolomoisky, who owned the TV channel, heavily promoted the show with prime-time slots and cross-promotion[1:42:07]
In 2018 a political party with the same name as the show was quietly registered, and Zelensky later announced his candidacy on Instagram with minimal campaigning or debates[1:42:35]
Gavin says U.S. agencies and NGOs, via USAID and other channels, poured billions into 'democracy promotion' in Ukraine and embedded advisors in Zelensky's operation[1:42:57]
He notes Zelensky won with 73% of the vote and later, after the Russian invasion, declared martial law and canceled scheduled elections[1:43:05]

Ukraine as proxy war and nature of modern conflict

Gavin argues that wars like Ukraine-Russia are not organic events but orchestrated struggles over power and resources, consistent with historic patterns of war[1:43:09]
He describes the current conflict as an electronic and proxy war between the U.S. and Russia, with Ukrainian soldiers in the 'meat grinder' while the U.S. supplies weapons, intelligence, and targeting data[1:44:26]
He mentions U.S.-funded biolabs in Ukraine and suggests such installations help explain Russian sensitivity to developments there[1:44:26]

Personal actions: moving to Texas, company testing, and medical dissidents

Relocating business from California to Texas

Gavin says a prior visit to Texas for Joe's show prompted him to scout properties and eventually move his company's headquarters from California to San Antonio[1:46:55]
He praises Texas permitting and governance compared to California, citing faster, more cooperative building inspections[1:47:05]

Testing applicants for cardiac markers after vaccination

Gavin notes his firm recruits physically fit young men who undergo strenuous training, and he became concerned about vaccine-related cardiac risk following expert advice[1:47:55]
Yale epidemiologist Harvey Risch advised him to test for D-dimer and troponin rather than simply waiting two weeks after vaccination[1:47:55]
Among the first 54 applicants tested, 17 were referred to cardiologists for abnormal markers, though some ultimately had no serious condition[1:48:35]
He mentions one 31-year-old applicant who collapsed and died during a physical run and states some of his employees chose vaccination due to prior military service[1:48:35]

Medical dissent and changing institutions

Gavin cites Harvey Risch and other prominent academics who opposed COVID vaccine mandates, especially for college students, and faced institutional consequences[1:49:46]
He notes that some of these dissenting scientists now hold positions in NIH and FDA, and says significant policy changes are occurring even if corporate media ignores them[1:50:32]
He gives examples of underreported shifts such as recommendations against fluoride in water and reevaluation of some mRNA projects[1:49:57]

Optimism, relationships, and the role of skepticism

Personal coping and humor

Joe says he copes with disturbing information primarily through humor and by balancing his focus with other interests rather than dwelling constantly on corruption[1:52:55]
Gavin asks Joe how he manages exposure to dark material; Joe acknowledges feeling bummed out by the depth of corruption and by friends who have become, knowingly or not, propagandists[1:53:25]

Seeing who is courageous

Joe describes COVID-era ostracism from media and some acquaintances for questioning narratives, but also notes many people privately admitted doubts[1:54:09]
Gavin says COVID helped him identify new deep friendships with people who would support each other in crises, while also ending shallow relationships[1:55:49]

Skepticism as a civic duty

Gavin summarizes that his book 'Forbidden Facts' is structured to walk readers through established cases like Agent Orange, baby powder, and other scandals to build a framework for skepticism about newer issues such as vaccines[1:55:39]
He emphasizes that the book includes QR codes linking to primary sources so readers can verify claims themselves and replace statements they dispute with what they believe is accurate[1:57:09]
Both agree that mainstream media's refusal to cover key revelations and their near-uniform hostility toward figures like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. illustrate how tightly pharma and government influence the information environment[1:58:18]

Closing remarks

Parting thoughts and book promotion

Gavin reiterates that he and his publisher do not profit from 'Forbidden Facts' and that its purpose is to help people persuade skeptical friends and family to think critically[2:01:57]
Joe thanks Gavin, asks him to hold up the book once more, and ends the conversation on the note that COVID exposed institutional corruption but also created opportunities for reform and clearer-eyed engagement[2:02:25]

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Treat official narratives as hypotheses, not truths; examine primary sources and historical patterns of deception before accepting government, media, or corporate claims.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What is one strongly held belief I currently have that rests mostly on headlines or conventional wisdom rather than primary sources?
  • • How can I build a simple habit (for example, checking original documents or data once a week) to test whether stories I hear stand up to scrutiny?
  • • The next time a major news story breaks, what specific steps will I take to verify key claims before I emotionally commit to a side?
2

Incentives, not intentions, largely determine behavior; when you see many institutions moving in the same direction, first map out what each actor stands to gain rather than assuming a single grand conspiracy or pure benevolence.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in my life am I assuming 'they must have good intentions' while ignoring what the people involved are actually rewarded for?
  • • How might my view of a controversial issue change if I diagram who profits financially, politically, or reputationally from each possible outcome?
  • • What concrete decision this month could I revisit by explicitly listing incentives for every party involved, including myself?
3

Health decisions, especially for children, must be individualized; you need to weigh actual disease risk, product effectiveness, and potential side effects instead of outsourcing all judgment to authority figures.

Reflection Questions:

  • • For the medications or vaccines my family currently uses, do I actually know the disease risk, benefit size, and main known harms in numbers rather than slogans?
  • • How can I structure a conversation with my doctor so that we discuss tradeoffs and uncertainties instead of just following a default schedule?
  • • What is one concrete health decision (for myself or a child) where I will commit to reading the original safety data or package insert before saying yes or no?
4

Large, centralized systems naturally drift toward opacity and abuse; meaningful oversight only emerges when individuals are willing to ask inconvenient questions and risk social friction.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In which settings (work, family, community) do I currently see something that seems wrong but stay silent to avoid discomfort or conflict?
  • • How might I frame a tough question so that it challenges a process or decision without attacking a person, making it more likely to be heard?
  • • What small act of principled pushback could I take in the next week that would strengthen my own tolerance for social discomfort in service of truth?
5

Historical awareness is a protection against naivety; once you internalize how often governments and corporations have lied or delayed the truth, you stop being shocked and start planning accordingly.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which past scandal or historical operation (medical, military, or political) surprised me most when I first learned about it, and why?
  • • How would my expectations of current institutions change if I treated those past behaviors as the norm rather than the exception?
  • • What is one area of history I could study more deeply this quarter that would give me better context for evaluating today's controversies?
6

Cultivating a trusted personal network is a strategic response to systemic unreliability; in turbulent times, resilient relationships are more valuable than blind faith in distant institutions.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Who are the three people in my life I could call at 2 a.m. during a crisis, and what have I done recently to invest in those relationships?
  • • How might I gently test whether someone new in my circle is willing to think independently and stand by me if my views become unpopular?
  • • What recurring gathering or practice could I start (for example, a monthly dinner or reading group) to deepen relationships with people I consider principled and courageous?

Episode Summary - Notes by Logan

#2411 - Gavin de Becker
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