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On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Jay's Must-Listens: Are You Still Holding Onto Childhood Trauma? (Follow 3 Steps & FINALLY Heal) Ft. Gabor Mate & Oprah Winfrey

with Gabor Mate, John Legend, Oprah Winfrey, Bruce Perry

Published October 1, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

This episode is a curated collection of conversations about trauma, grief, and healing, featuring insights from Dr. Gabor Mate, John Legend, Oprah Winfrey, Dr. Bruce Perry, and Anita. Jay Shetty explores how trauma can be loud or subtle, why it often hides behind overachievement or people-pleasing, and how reframing the question from "What's wrong with me?" to "What happened to me?" opens the door to compassion and recovery. The guests share personal stories and frameworks on authenticity, grief, intergenerational wounds, and learning to live fully while carrying past pain.

Topics Covered

Trauma Grief and loss Parenting and child development Relationships Personal Development Mental health Narrative psychology Epigenetics and epigenome Identity Resilience

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Quick Takeaways

  • Trauma is widespread and often invisible, frequently showing up as overachieving, people-pleasing, emotional shutdown, or chronic health problems rather than obvious dramatic events.
  • Dr. Gabor Mate emphasizes that suppressing your true self to be accepted creates deeper, longer-lasting pain than the short-term discomfort of being authentic.
  • Reframing the inner question from "What's wrong with me?" to "What happened to me?" shifts us from self-blame to curiosity and compassion, opening a path to healing.
  • John Legend describes grief as something you carry and learn to live with, not something you "get over," and shares how shared values and commitment helped his family move through tragedy together.
  • Oprah Winfrey explains how seemingly "normal" corporal punishment and emotional invalidation shaped her into a world-class people-pleaser and made her more vulnerable to abuse.
  • Dr. Bruce Perry notes that our brains and worldviews are shaped by our personal histories, so understanding someone requires asking about their past instead of judging their behavior.
  • Anita illustrates how fears and scarcity mindsets can be inherited from a parent's stress during pregnancy, and how intentional healing work can release patterns that aren't truly ours.
  • Healing begins the moment we start to understand what we're carrying, where it came from, and consciously choose what continues with us and what ends with us.

Podcast Notes

Introduction: Hidden trauma and the possibility of healing

Setting up the core questions about trauma

Trauma always leaves a mark, even when it is not visible[2:14]
• Jay says if you have ever asked yourself why you react a certain way, why sadness feels deeper than it should, or why you carry unexplained pain, this episode is for you.
Statistics on how common trauma is[2:37]
• Jay states that 70% of adults in the US have experienced at least one traumatic event in their lives.
• He notes that trauma is not always loud; it can look like overachieving, people-pleasing, or emotional shutdown.
• Jay cites research that 61% of patients with first-episode depression and 51% with recurring depression reported childhood or recent trauma.
Introducing the idea of rewiring your relationship to trauma[3:04]
• Jay says you can literally rewire your body's relationship to the trauma it carries.
• He frames the episode as going deeper into what trauma really is, how it hides, and what it takes to finally heal.

Preview of featured voices and central lesson

Guests and themes introduced[3:28]
• Jay says listeners will hear from Dr. Gabor Mate on the emotional cost of hiding who you are.
• He mentions John Legend speaking about grieving without closure.
• He references Oprah Winfrey and Dr. Perry discussing the power of rethinking trauma.
• He introduces Anita, who will talk about inherited wounds and generational fear.
Core reassurance: you are not broken[3:43]
• Jay states the lesson: "You're not broken. You're carrying something that was never meant to be yours to begin with."

Dr. Gabor Mate on authenticity, suppression, and the pain of dependence

Survival strategies and the cost of self-suppression

How hiding who you are becomes lifelong trauma[4:06]
• Jay summarizes that Dr. Gabor Mate teaches that when you hide who you really are to survive childhood, that survival strategy can turn into lifelong trauma.
• He notes this suppression can later show up as anxiety, chronic illness, or disconnection in relationships.
• Jay shares that nearly 80% of autoimmune patients report a significant emotional stressor before onset.
• He says studies show burying emotions early on can increase chances of developing depression or addictive behaviors in adulthood.
Healing as returning to abandoned parts of self[4:43]
• Jay frames healing not as changing who you are, but as coming back to the parts of yourself you had to leave behind.

Choosing between different kinds of pain

No pain-free option when it comes to authenticity[5:39]
• Gabor Mate says, "You're going to have pain one way or the other... Which pain would you like?"
• He contrasts the pain of suppressing yourself for acceptance versus the pain of being yourself and sometimes not being accepted.
• He states his bias that the pain of not being ourselves is ultimately greater and more chronic.
• He argues that the short-term pain of being ourselves brings liberation and allows genuinely independent relationships with people who accept us as independent.

Familiar pain vs unfamiliar pain

Thich Nhat Hanh's idea of familiar vs unfamiliar pain[5:48]
• Jay recalls Thich Nhat Hanh's idea that we choose between familiar pain and unfamiliar pain.
• He notes people are so scared of unfamiliar pain they would rather choose familiar pain because they already know how it feels.
• Jay describes how we reassure ourselves by thinking at least we know how bad it can get.
Nuancing dependence and independence[6:27]
• Jay frames being independent or being dependent as both involving pain, and suggests the pain of dependence far outweighs the pain of independence.
• Gabor adds nuance by referencing Thich Nhat Hanh's concept of "interbeing" and saying we do depend on each other, and that is okay.
• He distinguishes between authentic dependence (reaching out honestly for help) and inauthentic dependence (pretending to be someone else to be accepted).

Individualism vs individuation

Rugged individualism as an unhealthy ideal[7:15]
• Gabor contrasts "individualism" and "individuation," noting that rugged individualism is the idea "I don't need anybody" and "me against the world."
• He says rugged individualism is a North American capitalist ideal and humans would never have evolved that way.
• He remarks that rugged individualists wouldn't last more than one generation.
Individuation as being yourself within relationships[7:13]
• Gabor defines individuation as being truly yourself in genuine relationship with others, not as rugged individualism.
• He humorously says rugged individualists are boring because they all look the same.

Authenticity, caring what others think, and moral intention

Do we care what people think or how we affect them?

Jay critiques the rhetoric of not caring what others think[8:09]
• Jay observes there is rhetoric saying we shouldn't care what anyone thinks and should just do our own thing, and calls it a "bitter response."
• He argues we do have to care what people think because a world where no one cared could lead to obscene or horrific actions.
Gabor's alternative framing: intention and impact[8:34]
• Gabor responds that he would phrase it differently: he says he doesn't care what anybody thinks, but he cares what he does and how it affects other people.
• He cites Buddhist teacher Bhante Gunaratana, author of "Mindfulness in Plain English," who talks about a higher morality that arises from being true to yourself.
• Gabor references St. Augustine's line "love and do what you will," suggesting that if you truly love the world, that love will guide your actions without needing rigid rules.
• He explains that if he worried about what people think, he would not have written his books, which challenge orthodoxies in medicine, attention deficit, stress and disease, and addictions.
• He says when he writes or makes political statements, he is responsible for what he says and how he says it, but not for what others think about it.
• He clarifies that not caring what others think does not mean ignoring others' experiences or going around doing terrible things.
• He emphasizes checking his intention through an inner "inventory" to see whether what he does is guided by love and integrity.

Is there a hierarchy of trauma?

Comparing different types of trauma

Objective differences vs practical usefulness[10:03]
• Jay asks whether there is a hierarchy of pain or trauma, since people often say one trauma is worse or better than another.
• Gabor answers that you could say some experiences are more horrific, such as a child being sexually abused versus a child whose parents do not validate emotions.
• He acknowledges horrific things happen to some people, while others suffer in different ways.
• He then asks whether it is useful to make that distinction when helping people.
Why comparing trauma is unhelpful[10:27]
• Gabor gives an example of a four-year-old telling a father they are afraid and being dismissed with "snap out of it" and "only cowards are afraid."
• He asks whether it would help for the mother to say "think of all the kids being sexually abused or bombed" and concludes that would not be helpful.
• He says trauma simply means a wound, and people are wounded in many ways; the useful approach is to tend to the wound rather than compare it.
• He compares it to someone coming with a cut on their arm: telling them others have broken arms would not help; you still need to stitch the cut.

John Legend on grief, miscarriage, and living with loss

Silence around pregnancy loss and the need to be seen

Framing pregnancy loss as common yet under-discussed[13:03]
• Jay notes that one in four pregnancies ends in miscarriage.
• He shares that many friends and family members have disclosed such experiences to him recently.
• He says the silence around pregnancy loss can be as painful as the loss itself.
• Jay frames John's story as a reminder that grief isn't something to be solved but something that needs to be seen.

Living with a "broken heart" instead of forcing wholeness

Origin of the lyric "let your broken heart learn to live in pieces"[13:51]
• Jay quotes John Legend's lyric "let your broken heart learn to live in pieces" and says he has been thinking about it a lot.
• He notes people are constantly trying to become whole again, but the lyric suggests learning to live with a broken heart.
• John explains the song's idea is that we never completely shed or forget trauma, loss, or heartbreak.
• He says there will be times when pangs of memory return; grief remains part of who you are and your story.
• He clarifies that healing and recovery are possible, but they do not erase the grief.
Carrying grief instead of "getting over" it[14:26]
• John says recovering from grief means learning to live with it and to continue experiencing life, joy, and pain afterwards.
• He agrees with Jay that people often ask "How do I move on?" or "How do I get over this?" but he is saying you are going to carry it as part of your life and story.
• John notes he has seen growth through grief and tragedy in his relationship with Chrissy.
• He describes himself as "fine" with grief being part of who they are and something they carry.

Why some couples grow closer through trauma

Role of values and commitment in surviving tragedy[15:55]
• Jay observes that traumatic experiences can break people apart, but John and Chrissy focused on growing closer.
• He names values he sees in John: children, family, love, kindness, and connection.
• John says part of the difference is that they already had a great foundation, respected and loved each other, and enjoyed being together.
• He believes you also have to commit to working through pain and "doing the work" needed to get through it.
• John adds that having two children already was helpful because they brought joy, laughter, and focus for their energy during grief.

Oprah Winfrey and Dr. Bruce Perry on redefining trauma

Challenging assumptions about what trauma looks like

Trauma beyond violent or dramatic events[20:38]
• Jay introduces that Oprah and Dr. Perry challenge ideas about what trauma "should" look like.
• He states you don't need a violent or dramatic event to be traumatized; neglect, lack of validation, or emotional absence can be just as damaging.
• He says emotional neglect is one of the most common and overlooked forms of trauma.
Reframing the core question: "What happened to me?"[21:03]
• Jay explains Oprah reframes the question from "what's wrong with me" to "what happened to me."
• He says that small shift can completely transform how we see ourselves and how we heal.

Oprah's changed understanding of trauma

From "big T" events to cumulative small wounds[21:03]
• Oprah says she used to think trauma had to be a big, gigantic experience like a tsunami, fire, hurricane, tragedy, car accident, stabbing, or death.
• Through co-authoring the book with Bruce Perry, she came to understand that trauma can be the consistent little things and microaggressions that shape a person's worldview.
• She learned that trauma is deeply tied to how you were loved and that neglect and trauma are "hand in hand" and equally toxic.
Wholeness, self-love, and dysfunction[23:20]
• Oprah describes her years of interviewing people as her greatest classroom for understanding human behavior.
• She observed that people are as dysfunctional, unhappy, and disoriented as they are far from the "center" of themselves, where wholeness lies.
• She says where there is no center and no sense of wholeness and self-love, there will be disarray, chaos, confusion, and dysfunction.
• She concludes that people behave based on how they were loved and how they processed that in order to love others, and Bruce gave her the science behind that observation.

Success, fame, and trauma

Why external success may not heal internal wounds

Fame based on others' opinions[23:39]
• Jay notes that many influential, successful people build success on trauma, so their success does not always satisfy them.
• Oprah explains that fame is its own world and is based on what other people think of you, not what you think of yourself.
• She warns that if you come into fame without a grounded, centered sense of self, you will be controlled by the outside rather than the inside.
• She says if you don't know who you are and what you're supposed to do with fame, others' liking or disliking you will determine whether you have a good or bad day.
• She believes fame teaches you quickly to grow wholeness within yourself so you are not controlled by others' opinions.

The power of asking "What happened to you?"

Origin of the question in Oprah's work with Dr. Perry

Why shifting the question changed Oprah's perspective[26:02]
• Oprah recounts interviewing Dr. Bruce Perry for a 60 Minutes story and hearing him say that instead of asking "what's wrong with them" about misbehaving kids, we should ask "what happened to you."
• She describes having a major "aha" moment that changed how she saw her relationships, her life, and how she interacted with people.
• She began applying "what happened to you" not just to children but to everyone, including in the political context of the previous four years.
• She says she started wondering what happened to people earlier in life that caused them to be the way they are.
• Oprah lists labels like overachiever, obsessive-compulsive mom, and people pleaser as all referring back to what happened to us.
• She quotes Bruce from the book: each of us comes into the world with our own worldview, shaped from the crib, and we project into the world what we were raised with.
• She concludes that "what happened to you" is the essential question for understanding a person.

Dr. Bruce Perry on personal history and the brain

Historical perspective and biology[29:31]
• Dr. Perry says his love of history taught him that what happened in the past plays a major role in how things function now.
• As a biologist, he learned that we each have a personal history and that our experiences shape brain systems that influence how we think, feel, and behave.
Curiosity instead of judgment[30:38]
• He says recognizing personal history leads to a different approach to getting to know someone: you enter interactions with curiosity about what is going on.
• He agrees with Oprah that this perspective opens a new way to understand people and makes you more empathic instead of judgmental.

Oprah's childhood beatings and becoming a people pleaser

Recognizing normalized trauma as trauma

Whippings over small mistakes and cultural norms[31:17]
• Jay recalls Oprah's story of her grandmother whipping her over small things like spilling water or breaking a plate and says this harsh behavior was normal to her as a child.
• Oprah says she did not recognize this as abnormal until she was an adult and met her best friend Gail, the first Black person she knew who wasn't whipped as a child.
• She observes that in Black culture, many people of a certain age were whipped as children; it was the norm.
• Writing about it made her recognize for the first time that this was not normal.

Adult anxiety around confrontation

Feeling like every disagreement would lead to a "whipping"[32:22]
• Oprah recalls being in her 40s in a boardroom, needing to confront someone, and feeling intense anxiety about it.
• She questions why she felt so afraid even though she was in the power seat as Oprah Winfrey, running Harpo Studios.
• She realized she felt like every confrontation would result in a whipping and that the person would be mad at her and demand she not act angry, echoing her childhood experiences.
• She connects being beaten and told children are "seen and not heard" to becoming a major people pleaser whose opinions "do not matter."

Link between early conditioning and later vulnerability to abuse

How silencing children increases susceptibility[34:46]
• Oprah states that being raised to believe her opinions did not matter and that she should be subservient to others' ideals trained her not to speak up.
• She says this was, for her, one reason she was so susceptible to sexual abuse, because she believed older or authoritative people had rights she did not.
• She summarizes that "what happened to me" was ingrained in ways that made her a major people pleaser for much of her life.
• Jay highlights that when we normalize something, we may not recognize the trauma in it at all.

Anita on inherited fear and generational patterns

Lingering fears despite material security

Recurring thoughts of losing everything[36:16]
• Jay notes Anita grew up in Brazilian favelas and has described people there being treated "like trash."
• Anita says that even while living as "Anita" with three houses and enough money to retire comfortably, she kept having intrusive thoughts like "What if I get pregnant and lose all my money and have to work in the streets to feed my babies?"
• She wondered why she was thinking this given her current reality.

Shamanic session and inherited thoughts

Understanding that the fear was not originally hers[37:13]
• Anita describes a session with her shaman, who told her that this was not her thought.
• The shaman explained that just as we inherit physical DNA like hair, eyes, and body from parents, we can also inherit thoughts, energy, and behaviors.
• Anita says they did a session to "clean" or remove the thought from her because it came from her family, not from her.
• She then asked her mother if she had ever felt a fear of losing everything and not having money to survive.
• Her mother told her that when she became pregnant with Anita, Anita's father lost his job and she feared they wouldn't have money to feed the children and might have to work as a housemaid.
• Anita says her mother spent the whole pregnancy with this fear, which made sense of Anita's own recurring thoughts.
Biological framing: maternal stress and neuropeptides[39:18]
• Jay notes a statistic that maternal stress during pregnancy can increase a child's risk of illness by up to 60%.
• Anita mentions a movie she produced called "Me" that explains how negative thoughts a mother carries during pregnancy become neuropeptides in the child's brain.

Symbolic full-circle moment at her 30th birthday

Party at the site of her father's job loss[40:09]
• Anita says after her clearing session, she never had that fear thought again.
• For her 30th birthday, she struggled to find a venue, and only one spot was available, so she booked it.
• When she sent the address to her father, he told her it was the address of the company that fired him when her mother was pregnant with Anita.
• Anita describes being stunned that they were celebrating her 30 years with abundance at the same address tied to her parents' fear of scarcity.
• She sees it as an answer from the universe and an example of meaningful, non-coincidental events.

Transgenerational heritage beyond the physical

Movie "Me" and inherited karmas[41:13]
• Anita explains that "Me" discusses how you can inherit not only physical traits but also mental patterns and karmas from your parents and grandmother.
• She stresses the importance of "cleaning" or working on these inheritances; otherwise you may live without discovering your purpose.

Childhood intuition and sense of purpose

Early visions of her future life[42:13]
• Anita says that as a child she was very connected, dreamed a lot, and would wake up seeing people.
• She told her parents in detail what was going to happen in her life, including that she would sing, what their house would be like, and other specific details.
• Her father, who was very stressed with work, recalls her reassuring him that everything would be great and describing her future success as a singer almost precisely as it eventually unfolded.

Linking spiritual and physical changes

Birth control and internal transformation[43:36]
• Jay notes that Anita has made physical changes such as stopping birth control, and he sees these changes as linked to her internal transformation.
• Anita agrees "100%" that such physical choices are connected to her inner changes.

Conclusion: Awareness as the beginning of healing

Recognizing subtle and inherited trauma

Trauma does not have to be obvious[43:58]
• Jay summarizes that many people carry pain they did not ask for, grief that feels unresolved, and patterns that don't make sense until they look deeper.
• He reiterates that trauma doesn't always look obvious but always leaves a mark.
Awareness as the start of healing[44:14]
• Jay emphasizes that the moment you begin to understand your trauma, you've already begun to heal.
• He says healing begins when we stop blaming ourselves and start reframing to understand more deeply what we are carrying, where it came from, and what it would look like to let it go.
• He notes that whether through self-reflection, therapy, spirituality, or storytelling, every step toward awareness is a step toward freedom.

Invitation to continue learning

Encouragement and next steps[44:57]
• Jay thanks viewers for watching, invites them to subscribe so they never miss a video, and encourages continued dedication to feeling happier, healthier, and more healed.
• He recommends his full interview with Dr. Gabor Mate on understanding trauma and healing emotional wounds for those who loved this episode.

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Suppressing your true self to gain acceptance creates a deeper, chronic pain than the short-term discomfort of being authentic, so the real choice is not between pain and no pain but between inauthentic and authentic pain.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In what situations do you still hide or mute parts of yourself just to be accepted by others?
  • • How might your life feel different in five years if you consistently chose the short-term pain of authenticity over the long-term pain of self-suppression?
  • • What is one concrete conversation this week where you can show up a little more honestly, even if it feels uncomfortable?
2

Reframing your inner dialogue from "What's wrong with me?" to "What happened to me?" shifts you from self-blame to curiosity, making it easier to understand your patterns and respond with compassion instead of judgment.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your life do you most often default to the thought "What's wrong with me?" when something goes badly?
  • • How could asking "What happened to me?" about a recurring behavior open up new understanding of its roots?
  • • What support (a person, book, or practice) can you seek out to explore the "what happened" behind one behavior you find hard to change?
3

Grief and trauma rarely disappear; they become part of your story, and healing is about learning to live fully while carrying them rather than trying to "get over" them.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What loss or painful event are you still telling yourself you "should be over" by now?
  • • In what ways has that experience quietly shaped your values, empathy, or priorities for the better?
  • • What small ritual, conversation, or creative act could help you honor that grief as part of your story instead of something to erase?
4

Many of your fears and automatic reactions may be inherited from earlier generations or early environments, so part of healing is discerning what is truly yours and consciously choosing what ends with you.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which recurring fears or beliefs about money, safety, or love feel bigger than your actual current circumstances?
  • • How might your parents' or caregivers' experiences during your early years have shaped those specific fears or beliefs?
  • • What is one inherited pattern you decide to question and work on releasing over the next month, and what first step will you take?
5

External success, fame, or recognition cannot compensate for a missing inner center; without a grounded sense of self, you become controlled by others' opinions instead of guided by your own values.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where do you notice your mood or self-worth rising and falling based mainly on other people's reactions to you?
  • • How could clarifying your own values and purpose make you less dependent on external approval in that area?
  • • What daily habit could you add to strengthen your inner center-such as journaling, quiet reflection, or values-based goal setting?
6

Approaching yourself and others with curiosity about past experiences rather than ranking or comparing traumas fosters empathy and creates better conditions for genuine healing.

Reflection Questions:

  • • When someone's behavior frustrates you, how quickly do you jump to judging them instead of wondering what might have happened to shape them?
  • • How could you apply a more curious, "What might they have been through?" mindset to a specific relationship that currently feels tense?
  • • What is one small change in how you speak to yourself (or someone close to you) that would reflect this more compassionate, non-comparing view of trauma?

Episode Summary - Notes by Reagan

Jay's Must-Listens: Are You Still Holding Onto Childhood Trauma? (Follow 3 Steps & FINALLY Heal) Ft. Gabor Mate & Oprah Winfrey
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