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You're Wrong About

Introducing: The Devil You Know with Sarah Marshall

with Mary de Young, Patrick Balch

Published October 28, 2025
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About This Episode

Host Sarah Marshall introduces her mini-series "The Devil You Know," exploring the 1980s satanic panic through individual stories and sociological context. This first episode focuses on "Diane," a pseudonymous photographer who became the target of satanism rumors while teaching photography in rural Kentucky, and on how a Hollywood film shoot involving black dresses in Hazard, Kentucky was misread as evidence of devil worship. With commentary from sociologist Mary de Young and local resident Patrick Balch, the episode shows how small, unusual events were amplified by anxiety, rumor, and self-appointed experts into a nationwide moral panic.

Topics Covered

Cult dynamics Conspiracy theories Religion and spirituality Media trust and propaganda Personal narrative Storytelling Nostalgia Trauma

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • The satanic panic of the 1980s turned minor anomalies-like a photographer visiting a small town or a theater production buying black fabric-into supposed proof of vast satanic conspiracies.
  • Diane, a photographer working under a Kentucky arts grant, was abruptly warned to flee town after rumors cast her as a predator seeking blonde, blue-eyed children for satanic sacrifice.
  • Sociologist Mary de Young explains the panic as a moral backlash to social changes-divorce, working mothers, and "latchkey kids"-that became projected onto fears about satanism and child harm.
  • Police, social workers, and therapists were trained by self-appointed "experts" to see satanic ritual abuse everywhere, priming whole communities to treat any oddity as evidence of a cult.
  • In Hazard, Kentucky, a Hollywood crew filming "Next of Kin" bought 20 black dresses, which spawned statewide rumors of devil worship despite locals like Patrick Balch seeing nothing satanic at all.
  • Sarah Marshall emphasizes that understanding the panic requires listening to individuals caught in it, whose lives were disrupted by unfounded fears that still echo in contemporary conspiracy thinking.

Podcast Notes

Series and episode introduction

Sarah Marshall introduces "The Devil You Know" mini-series

Positioning of the mini-series within "You're Wrong About"[0:00]
• Sarah welcomes listeners to "You're Wrong About" and then to "The Devil You Know," her new mini-series with CBC Podcasts about the satanic panic.
Sarah's long-standing interest in the satanic panic[0:39]
• She notes that if listeners have heard the show before, they probably know that the satanic panic has been an interest of hers for a very long time.

Framing of the mini-series' goals

Focus on first-hand experience and testimony[0:39]
• Sarah explains that she and producer Mary Steffenhagen made the show about what it was like to experience the satanic panic firsthand, focusing on the people it happened to and what their testimony can teach us.
Connecting past satanic panic to "the satanic panic of today"[0:45]
• She explicitly says the series will examine what their stories can teach us about surviving the satanic panic of today, implying contemporary parallels.

Opening of Episode One: Introducing Diane and her story

Diane's abrupt warning to leave town

Mysterious warning from the art teacher[2:35]
• Diane recalls that she "didn't have any clue" what was going on, but the art teacher made it clear she should "get the hell out right away."
Introduction of Diane as a pseudonymous subject[2:49]
• Sarah explains that "Diane" is not the photographer's real name; it is a pseudonym chosen for privacy and in honor of the character Diane from the 1980s TV show "Cheers."
Diane's self-description[2:55]
• Diane describes herself as an artist, photographer, designer, art educator, digital designer, and more.

Diane's photography project and first positive experience in Kentucky

Description of the late-1980s project[3:04]
• Diane was working on a project in the late 1980s that involved traveling around Kentucky to establish a photography program, find a place to live, and get things going.
After-school photography club and community warmth[3:25]
• During her first two-week residency, she ran an after-school photography club for girls who were enthusiastic and told their families, leading to dinner invitations and friendly interactions.
• She left that first visit with a "really warm place" in her heart for the town and its people.
Scenic description of the town[4:01]
• Diane remembers the town as pretty old, scenic, and beautiful, nestled in hills or possibly mountains.

Diane's fear and flight from town

Being told to leave immediately[4:19]
• After the principal's announcement (described later) the art teacher looked at Diane very seriously and told her to leave right away.
Emotional impact of departure[4:35]
• Diane says that when she left, she "couldn't drive fast enough," describing it as "pedal to the metal" and wanting to put as many miles between herself and the town as possible.
Fear of possible outcomes[4:50]
• She says she didn't know if she'd end up in jail or "thrown in a cave," conveying how unsafe she felt.

Diane as target of a conspiracy rumor

Awareness of broader satanic imagery at the time[5:03]
• Diane remembers hearing about pentagrams on barn floors and similar stories, and thought maybe such things could happen but didn't really believe in widespread devil worshipers suddenly appearing.
Sarah frames Diane's experience as a microcosm[5:24]
• Sarah notes that what happened to Diane was a microcosm of a larger conspiracy sweeping the nation in the 1980s, a conspiracy about a conspiracy where rumor turned into panic and then legend.

Historical and cultural context of the satanic panic

Difficulty of understanding the panic only from a distance

Nation-level narrative vs. individual experiences[5:54]
• Sarah argues that seeing the satanic panic only as something that happened to a country or culture misses how it affected individuals, each of whom saw something slightly different.

Voices from different perspectives on the panic

Examples of varied personal understandings[6:09]
• Sarah cites different recollections: one person wondered if bizarre abuse "could have happened" given their strange childhood; another first heard it tied to the mafia and later to a mysterious school group; another recalls willingly talking to a detective and later realizing that was a mistake.

Sarah introduces series focus and a specific rumor

Focus on Diane's story in this episode[6:54]
• Sarah says the episode will look at how individuals got caught up in the panic, specifically through Diane's perspective.
Preview of rumor elements: virgin sacrifice, grave robbing, Patrick Swayze[7:02]
• Sarah teases that Diane's story involves a rumor about virgin sacrifice, grave robbing, and actor Patrick Swayze.

Pop culture and media portrayal of satanism in the 1960s-1980s

Snapshot of 1980s culture and "satanism" as part of it

Cultural items associated with the 1980s[7:24]
• Sarah lists leg warmers, Madonna, novelty phones, the Star Wars trilogy, Michael J. Fox, the Delorean, the jacuzzi, the VCR, Cyndi Lauper, Aquanet, and fishnets, then adds "and also apparently satanism."

Mainstream news coverage of supposed satanism

Local and national talk shows[8:05]
• Clips are described from shows like "People Are Talking" and "The Oprah Winfrey Show," where hosts frame satanism as being on the rise across the United States.
Primetime news investigations[8:24]
• Sarah notes ABC's "20/20" investigation, which described satanism and devil worship as being practiced across the country with "perverse, hideous acts" including suicides, murders, and ritualistic slaughter of children and animals.

Earlier roots of satan-themed fear and fascination

Anton LaVey and the Church of Satan[9:11]
• Sarah recounts that in the 1960s and 70s, Anton LaVey founded the Church of Satan in San Francisco, which, according to its literature, promoted worship of oneself and personal freedom rather than literal Satan.
Manson family murders and satanic attribution[9:24]
• She describes public reaction to the 1969 Manson family murders, where the idea that teenage girls could be induced to kill led some to ascribe the crimes to Satan rather than "just some guy."
Evangelical critiques of the counterculture[9:47]
• Members of the growing evangelical Christian movement argued that the Age of Aquarius and related practices, like reading horoscopes, were fronts for Satan, suggesting a slippery slope from harmless-seeming activities to goat sacrifice.

Satan as big business in entertainment

Devil-themed horror films[10:33]
• Sarah points to films like "Rosemary's Baby" (1968), which featured a satanic child, and "The Exorcist" (1973), about a possessed adolescent girl and heroic Catholic priests, as creating a commercial market for devil stories.

Escalation into 1980s moral panic

Shift from fiction to claims of real-life satanism[9:53]
• By the 1980s, Sarah notes that stories of satanic activity moved from film plots into purported local realities, with claims that such events were happening "in your very own town."

Sociological analysis of the satanic panic (Mary de Young)

Mary de Young defines moral panic dynamics

Moral panic as regressive social movement[11:13]
• Mary de Young, a sociology professor emeritus, describes the satanic panic as a moral panic that tried to restore old moral lines and cultural habits-"the good old days"-in response to threatening social change.

Anxieties about family changes and children

Family structure as moral foundation[12:53]
• De Young notes concerns about increased divorce, non-traditional families, and more women working, leading to commentary about unsupervised "latchkey" children and boys growing up without fathers.
Family change as inviting evil influences[13:07]
• She explains that historically the family is seen as society's moral foundation; when that changes, some people believe it invites evil influences or weakens resistance to evil, however defined.

Use of "evil" as a powerful label

Evil as narrative-shaping word[14:23]
• De Young says that throughout history some people or ideologies get labeled as evil, and that the word itself is extremely powerful, fundamentally changing the narrative when inserted into a sentence.

Rise of self-appointed experts on satanism and ritual abuse

Proliferation of expert training[15:02]
• De Young describes how "experts" on satanism, cults, satanic cults, and the new term "ritual abuse" emerged and trained others, who then trained more experts.
Professionals instructed to look for satanism[14:52]
• Across North America, social workers and therapists were encouraged to search for signs of satanism in clients' memories and at crime scenes, while teachers, parents, and children were told to hunt for secret satanic messages in heavy metal music, comic books, and games.

Kentucky as a case study of panic

Example of mass school absence due to rumors[15:52]
• De Young cites a Kentucky community where rumors that a satanic cult would kidnap blonde-haired, blue-eyed girls for sacrifice led parents to keep 450 children home from school on a single day.
Police training in satanic ritual abuse[16:52]
• She notes training sessions attended by hundreds of Kentucky police officers on satanic ritual abuse and so-called "occult crime," indicating institutional reinforcement of the panic.
Communities primed to accept allegations[17:07]
• De Young explains that such relationships and trainings created communities "primed" for allegations-ready to believe them and act as if they were credible.

Eastern Kentucky rumors and connection to Diane's timeline

Media reports of satan worship rumors in Kentucky

Summary of newspaper coverage[17:37]
• A montage of Kentucky newspaper excerpts describes widespread rumors that satan worshipers were looking for blonde, blue-eyed children to sacrifice, vandalism with "666" and "Satan rules," and alleged satanic ceremonies with no supporting evidence found.
Police skepticism vs. public fear[18:08]
• Sarah notes that most law enforcement agencies surveyed said they believed the stories were false and reported finding no evidence, while still fielding thousands of calls from terrified residents.

Temporal link to Diane's visit

Same month as Diane's project[18:41]
• Sarah points out that these rumors were circulating in September 1988, the same month Diane traveled to rural Kentucky for her photography work.

Details of Diane's residency and interactions in the town

Hands-on photography teaching methods

Pinhole camera exercises with students[18:59]
• Diane recalls students making pinhole cameras, loading one film at a time in a darkroom, then running outside to shoot and back in to develop, which provided a "frantic great release of energy" compared to sitting in desks.

Grant structure and community involvement

Kentucky Arts Council residency framework[19:30]
• Diane explains she was part of an artist grant program through the Kentucky Arts Council, traveling with photo gear to do approximately two-week residencies where towns provided her housing and she worked with students and designated teachers.
Range of projects created with students[19:58]
• Students made cameras from cardboard boxes, school newspapers with writings and photos, photo books, exhibits, and videos with original stories, dancing, and music.

Teenagers' response to the program

Enthusiasm and long-term impact[20:27]
• Diane says once teens were on board, they were highly inspired because the work was so different from regular school; some continued to write to her for years afterward, sending photos and questions.

Description of the town's layout and character

Physical and social features[21:17]
• She recalls a small town with one main road, surrounding neighborhoods, a teacher living in an old one-room schoolhouse where she found arrowheads, and amenities like a single Dairy Queen, one doctor, and one movie theater.
Anecdote about the Dairy Queen[21:56]
• Diane mentions seeing someone pass a baby through the Dairy Queen order window, which Sarah jokingly compares to holding a Blizzard upside-down to check thickness.

Diane's initial reception and local photography work

Use of a doctor's building as studio/darkroom[22:27]
• The local doctor offered Diane a room in his building across from her motel to use as a combined studio and darkroom.
Polaroid portraits around town[22:35]
• Diane ran around town meeting people, telling them about her project, photographing them with a Polaroid camera, and giving them the pictures, leading to consistently friendly outcomes.

Meeting with school officials and sudden reversal

Meeting the principal and art teacher[23:10]
• She scheduled a meeting with the high school principal and art teacher; she felt the meeting with the principal went fine, then went to meet with the art teacher.
Principal's alarming loudspeaker announcement[23:10]
• Mid-meeting, the principal's voice came over the loudspeaker saying, "If anyone sees the photo woman escort her to my office immediately," which led the art teacher to urge her to leave right away.

Warnings from a friend and local disappearance rumors

Spontaneous roadside conversation[23:51]
• Driving out of town, Diane happened to pass a friend in a car coming the opposite direction; they both stopped in the middle of the street and rolled down their windows to talk.
Friend's chilling warning about abductions[23:37]
• The friend told Diane to leave town right away, saying people had "disappeared or are disappeared," often abducted and ending up in nearby caves or never heard from again.
• Diane emphasizes that the friend's tone made it clear this was not a joke, intensifying her fear.

Diane's hurried departure and near encounter with authorities

Rapid packing and physical panic[24:50]
• Diane rushed back to the motel, grabbed all her belongings, and left; she remembers struggling to button her shirt, recognizing she was panicky even if not hysterical.
Sheriff's attempt to locate her[24:58]
• Later she learned that the sheriff had been waiting for her in the principal's office and had just missed her at the motel, reinforcing her relief at having left when she did.

Media reaction and written portrayals of Diane's case

Return to Cincinnati and flood of media calls

Diane's confusion and processing[26:02]
• After driving back to Cincinnati, Diane says people around her did not really understand what had happened, and she was still trying to process it herself.
National media interest[25:38]
• Her phone "started ringing off the hook" with calls from various media outlets, including People magazine, repeatedly asking for her story.

Sarah reads a cult-crime book's version of the story

Book's narrative about Diane[26:02]
• Sarah quotes a passage from a 1980s book on police cult-crime experts that described a Cincinnati photographer on a Kentucky Arts Council grant who was rumored to be taking pictures of blonde-haired, blue-eyed girls as potential victims for devil worshipers, chased from school by a principal yelling "Get out, get out," and fleeing after threats.
Diane disputes key details as fictionalized[27:03]
• Diane says she does not remember being chased from the school as described and thinks that part was made up for dramatic effect; in her recollection, she simply left with no one around.

Other local rumors: theater group and black fabric

Lexington report about theater group suspected of witchcraft

Suspicion triggered by buying black material[28:46]
• Diane recalls that right before she went to Kentucky, newspapers reported on a theater group suspected of witchcraft because they ordered "yards and yards" of black material, which she notes is a normal theater supply.
Recognition of mundane explanation[28:57]
• She points out that black fabric could be used for backdrops, blackout curtains, and many stage purposes, illustrating how ordinary actions became suspicious.

Comparison to contemporary conspiracy thinking

Sarah's QAnon comparison[29:06]
• Sarah comments that such stories would be funny if real lives were not at stake, comparing the logic to present-day QAnon thinking.

Emotional residue and framing of Diane's experience

Diane's ongoing distress[30:20]
• Diane says recounting the events still upsets her; when making notes for the interview she started getting emotionally shaken, even while insisting she is "not the victim" compared to others.
Connection to zeitgeist and possible antisemitism[29:06]
• She says she is unsure how much her experience was directly satanic-panic-related but feels it was part of the era's zeitgeist, and suggests that if underlying issues included antisemitism, they would not name it, instead using the timely label of "satanic business."
Sarah's reflection on plausibility biases[29:59]
• Sarah finds it depressing that people found it more believable that someone would come from another town to sacrifice a virgin than that they would simply be interested in teaching photography.

Hazard, Kentucky, and the Patrick Swayze film connection

Sarah's fascination with the black fabric detail

Question of how small details fueled statewide rumors[30:29]
• Sarah says she cannot stop thinking about the theater group's black fabric and asks how such a small purchase helped fuel a rumor that engulfed an entire state, leading her to Hazard, Kentucky.

Patrick Balch describes growing up in Hazard

Town atmosphere and businesses[30:37]
• Patrick recalls Hazard as having about four bars on Main Street and a store called Dollars and a Dime, and says the town felt like a "ghost town" when he was a kid.

Hollywood comes to Hazard: "Next of Kin" filming

Open casting call and Patrick meeting Patrick Swayze[31:19]
• In 1988, when Patrick was about eight, there was an open casting call at a Holiday Inn; his mother wanted to meet Patrick Swayze, whom she admired, and Patrick identified Swayze sitting at the hotel bar in a sleeveless shirt like the one from "Dirty Dancing."
• Patrick walked up and greeted Swayze, who turned and talked with him, leaving Patrick's mother stunned.
Film's major stars and plot summary[32:09]
• Patrick notes that Liam Neeson, Helen Hunt, and Patrick Swayze were in town filming "Next of Kin," about separated brothers, one murdered and another (a Chicago police officer) seeking justice and revenge, culminating in a family-coming-together climax.
Patrick's small role and time on set[33:03]
• He had only one line in the theatrical release but spent a couple of weeks on set, where Swayze taught him to shoot a bow and arrow in about 15 minutes; during the filmed scene he missed the haystack badly, joking it was a wonder he didn't hit someone.
Impact of the experience on young Patrick[34:02]
• Patrick says the experience opened his eyes to a world beyond Perry County, making him realize there was more to life and another way of living.

Link between black dresses and the film production

Newspaper account of black dress purchase[34:10]
• Sarah reads from a Louisville Courier Journal article (also syndicated) that said Hazard police were alarmed when department store employees panicked after someone bought 20 black dresses; authorities later learned the dresses were sewn together for movie lighting for "Next of Kin."
Rumors of virgin girl sacrifices[35:42]
• The article also noted a dispatcher reporting that people believed satan worshipers were seeking virgin girls and blonde, blue-eyed children to sacrifice to the devil.

Patrick's reaction to the satanism story

Dismissal of satanist rumors[35:00]
• When Sarah asks his reaction, Patrick responds with profanity indicating disbelief and says he knows of no such events occurring during the shoot.
Description of Hazard's rumor culture[36:08]
• Patrick describes Hazard as a "rumor mill" where everyone knows others' business immediately and says if someone did anything alarming, people would talk behind their back as soon as they left.
Religious conservatism and quick satanist labeling[36:35]
• He notes there are many "bible thumpers" wearing long denim skirts, and jokes that buying black eyeliner and a black dress could lead to being called a satan worshiper.
Patrick insists there were no satanists on set[37:11]
• Patrick states that Patrick Swayze and Liam Neeson were not satanists, he saw no evidence of satan worship, and there were no scenes of naked people dancing around fires or witches during filming.
Humorous response to hypothetical witch gathering[36:40]
• Asked if he would interpret such a sight as satanism, Patrick jokes that he would have "joined them" rather than fear them.

Closing reflections on rumor, panic, and recurring narratives

Reframing the evidence behind satanic claims

Hollywood activity mistaken for satanic ritual[37:18]
• Sarah points out that a Hollywood production crew's activities were mistaken for satanic rituals, illustrating how flimsy the supposed "smoking guns" of the panic often were.
Contrast between sensational and mundane explanations[37:57]
• She notes that "woman scared out of nearby town because Hollywood movie set bought 20 black dresses for a deleted scene" lacks the dramatic appeal of satanic headlines, yet better fits the facts.

Scale and complexity of the satanic panic

Panic as many-headed hydra[37:45]
• Sarah describes the satanic panic as a "many-headed hydra" reaching into many parts of North American life, so big that it's hard to grasp as a whole.
Need to study small stories like Diane's[39:30]
• She says that stories like the black dresses and Diane's experience show how people encountering something slightly unusual, in a climate of anxiety, often jumped to the worst possible interpretations.

Persistence and cyclical nature of such panics

Panic as recurring phenomenon[38:57]
• Sarah likens the panic to a being that sometimes retreats underground like Pennywise in Stephen King's "It" and then returns, noting that you can't personify a panic without remembering it is made of people panicking.
Cultural fatigue and craving for novelty[39:05]
• She suggests that rather than societies becoming smarter, they may simply tire of a particular story and move on to new fears until satanists again seem "fresh and shocking," which she implies is happening "about now."

Importance of individual voices within mass hysteria

Range of experiences among those caught in the panic[40:15]
• Sarah says some people, like Diane, never thought the panic could affect them; others thought they understood what to expect but found reality even more bizarre; and some did not even realize they were part of the story until they were trapped.
Using these stories to understand future directions[39:46]
• She frames the series as looking at these people and stories not only to understand what happened but also to understand where society is going.

Credits and production information

Key creative and production roles

Host and producer[40:15]
• Sarah Marshall identifies herself as the host and names Mary Steffenhagen as the producer of "The Devil You Know."
Additional production credits[40:20]
• She credits Katherine Barner for fact-checking, Nicole Ortiz for production assistance, Jake Howitt for voice coaching, Evan Kelly as sound designer, Roshni Nair as coordinating producer, Jeff Turner as senior producer, Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak as executive producers, Tanya Springer as manager of growth for CBC Podcasts, and Arif Noorani as director of CBC Podcasts.

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Small anomalies can be magnified into dangerous stories when communities are primed by fear, so it is crucial to pause and seek mundane explanations before accepting sensational ones.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What recent situation in your life or community might you be interpreting in the most dramatic way instead of first checking for ordinary explanations?
  • • How could you build a personal habit of asking "What else could this be?" before accepting a frightening rumor or narrative?
  • • What is one concrete step you could take this week to verify a story you have heard secondhand instead of passing it along immediately?
2

Underlying social and economic anxieties often get projected onto scapegoats, which can obscure the real structural issues that need attention.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your work or community do you see people blaming individuals or groups instead of examining deeper systemic causes?
  • • How might recognizing the structural roots of a problem change the way you talk about it with others?
  • • What is one recurring frustration in your life where you could deliberately shift your focus from blaming people to understanding the system producing that outcome?
3

When authorities and self-appointed experts treat unproven ideas as established fact, they can legitimize panics and drive harmful decisions, so insisting on clear evidence and transparent reasoning is essential.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which sources of "expert" advice do you currently trust, and how often do you actually examine the evidence behind their claims?
  • • How could you more systematically distinguish between evidence-based guidance and confident speculation in the information you consume?
  • • What is one area of your life where you could set a higher standard of proof before changing your behavior based on an authority's recommendation?
4

Media narratives and dramatic storytelling can distort how we perceive risk, making rare or unlikely threats feel more real than the everyday interactions and intentions right in front of us.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In what ways might movies, news, or social media be shaping your sense of what is dangerous, beyond what you have actually experienced?
  • • How could you recalibrate your perception of risk by comparing media stories with data or with your direct observations?
  • • What is one media habit you could adjust this month to reduce fear-driven reactions and increase grounded, evidence-based thinking?
5

Listening closely to individuals' lived experiences within a larger controversy reveals nuance, challenges stereotypes, and helps prevent dehumanizing those caught up in collective fears.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Whose first-hand experiences around a contentious issue do you currently lack, and how might hearing from them change your understanding?
  • • How can you make more space in conversations for specific personal stories instead of relying only on abstract headlines or labels?
  • • What is one concrete opportunity you have in the next few weeks to ask someone, "What was it actually like for you?" about a situation you've only seen from the outside?

Episode Summary - Notes by Logan

Introducing: The Devil You Know with Sarah Marshall
0:00 0:00