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The Ramsey Show

You Can Stay Broke Or Start Changing

Published October 10, 2025
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About This Episode

This episode of The Ramsey Show features hosts Dr. John Delony and Jade Warshaw taking live calls about money decisions intertwined with relationships, housing, and long-term goals. Callers wrestle with issues like manipulative parents offering large cash gifts, retirees drowning in credit card debt with an unaffordable house, planning for adoption or surrogacy, and how to buy cars or renovate homes without sabotaging financial peace. Throughout, the hosts emphasize setting boundaries, avoiding debt, prioritizing safety and peace over arbitrage schemes, and following the Baby Steps framework for budgeting, debt payoff, and investing.

Topics Covered

Budgeting Debt payoff Snowball method Mortgage Retirement savings Student loans Gambling addiction and bookmaking Surrogacy Adoption Life insurance Estate planning

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • Money offered as a "gift" from controlling family members often comes with strings, so couples must decide their own boundaries and communicate clearly that a gift cannot buy decision-making power.
  • Retirees living on fixed incomes with large mortgages and credit card debt may need to downsize housing dramatically and use the debt snowball to regain stability instead of trying to keep an unaffordable dream alive.
  • A fully funded 3-6 month emergency fund covers true emergencies, while predictable expenses like roofs, car repairs, and travel should be handled with separate sinking funds after Baby Step 3.
  • You can buy a home without a credit score through manual underwriting if you avoid debt, but that requires patience, strong income, and focused saving instead of rushing into a mortgage.
  • HELOC-based "velocity banking" schemes complicate life for marginal savings; simply paying extra on a straightforward mortgage and solving for peace is usually wiser.
  • Surrogacy and adoption are extremely expensive, so they should be treated as major savings goals without taking on new debt, and adoption may have meaningful tax credits and support options.
  • Discovering a spouse's gambling and financial infidelity requires immediate steps to ensure safety: opening separate accounts, pulling credit reports, freezing credit, and getting legal and therapeutic support.
  • If an opportunity to earn money conflicts with your personal convictions or risks pulling you back into a world you left, the money is not worth sacrificing your peace and integrity.
  • Term life insurance is for anyone with dependents and is meant to cover income replacement and caregiving needs until you build enough wealth to self-insure.
  • Big renovation projects and new cars should be done with cash and, when necessary, phased in over time rather than relying on HELOCs or the allure of brand-new vehicles that rapidly depreciate.

Podcast Notes

Show introduction and framing about money, normalcy, and listener calls

Hosts and show purpose

Jade Warshaw and Dr. John Delony host from the Ramsey Network studio[0:17]
• They emphasize that "normal is broke" and the show exists to help people transform their lives with money and life decisions

Call-in format reminder

Listeners can call 888-825-5225 to get on the air or leave a message to be scheduled for later[0:33]

Caller Dana: Parents offering $38,000 "gift" with a history of financial control

Description of the proposed gift and tax rationale

Dana and her husband are being offered $38,000 ($19,000 each) by his parents, allegedly for the parents' tax-advantaged gifting due to stock market gains[1:13]
• The in-laws regularly try to pay for things (e.g., trucks, business expenses) and frame it as trying to help

History of manipulation and estrangement

Money has been used as a tool of control and manipulation for years in her husband's family[1:28]
• Dana and her husband eloped 17 years ago because of the parents' behavior around money during wedding planning
They had no relationship with his parents for about 10 years; they reconnected six years ago, and the parents moved to their small town two years ago[2:27]

Examples of current pressure and emotional responses

As business owners, any normal business setback (like a truck breaking down) triggers the parents offering to pay or buy replacements[2:51]
• When Dana and her husband decline, the parents accuse her husband of being difficult and question why he won't "let them help"
Dana says her husband responds by saying they're not comfortable taking money or help; attempts to discuss past issues are met with denial ("that never happened")[3:43]

Wedding story illustrating strings attached to money

Dana's father was paying for their wedding; his parents were asked only to cover lodging at a resort by a creek for their traveling family[4:54]
• Her parents offered a large house by the creek with several bedrooms for his family; her father-in-law agreed to pay for that lodging
Once money was involved, his parents began making constant calls dictating wedding planning, guest list, and timeline[5:27]
• Her father-in-law called and criticized her save-the-date timing, saying "this isn't rocket science, Dana, you need to send it"

Hosts' analysis of the pattern and options

Jade notes that being confused about declined help doesn't itself make the parents toxic; the toxicity shows up when helping becomes a vehicle for control[6:27]
John frames the current situation as already being a "large firecracker" in their living room: whether they take or refuse the money, the parents will have an adult temper tantrum[7:05]
• If they take the $38k, they may face pressure like being told where to spend holidays; if they refuse, they'll still get emotional backlash
The bigger issue is that Dana and her husband are still letting the parents' reactions drive their decisions instead of deciding what's best for their own family[7:17]

Practical boundary advice about the gift

If they accept the money, John suggests explicitly saying they're grateful but will only take it as a no-strings-attached gift and asking if any conditions exist up front[7:42]
• They could also suggest the grandparents fund a 529 college plan for grandkids instead, which directs the help without enmeshing in their day-to-day
Another valid option is to decline the money completely and stick with that boundary[7:27]
John points out the parents will likely act the same with or without giving money; the underlying controlling personalities are the core issue, and money just magnifies it[8:31]

Caller Kelly: Elderly couple overwhelmed by credit card debt and housing costs

Kelly's debt and emotional state

Kelly, 76, and her 78-year-old husband owe about $26,706 on two Chase cards, plus other smaller cards[11:27]
• They have cleared off about 5-6 cards, but two large cards remain and the interest makes it feel like she isn't making progress
She becomes emotional, saying they used credit cards to live on and she wants to "do what's right before the Lord"[13:02]

House purchase, ministry dream, and high payment

Her husband pastored for 56 years and they lived in church parsonages, later buying a house that is now very expensive relative to their income[16:27]
• Their mortgage payment is $2,166.04 per month, nearly half of their roughly $5,000 monthly income from Social Security, rental income, housing allowance, VA disability, and teacher retirement
They bought a larger home partly to create "the shepherd's home" to host and minister to people in crisis, inspired by hospitality they experienced during a medical emergency years ago[17:02]
Kelly mentions overpaying property taxes in the first year; a $7,000 refund went back into escrow for future taxes instead of reducing principal, which confuses and frustrates her[19:00]

Hosts' assessment of the math and sustainability

John and Jade calculate their total income at nearly $5,000/month and identify the $2,166 mortgage as a major source of stress[18:13]
John gently but clearly tells Kelly that, despite their big heart for ministry, they cannot afford their current house on a fixed income with high housing costs and credit card debt[16:49]
• He notes that costs like taxes, utilities, and maintenance will continue to rise while their income stays flat, making the home an "escalating burden"

Practical next steps: selling the house and snowballing debt

Jade tells Kelly directly that she needs to sell the house and find housing that is no more than 25% of their take-home pay (around $1,250-$1,500/month)[22:57]
• They recommend using a Ramsey-trusted real estate agent to sell and then renting something smaller, even a one-bedroom apartment, to drastically cut housing and utility costs
Jade outlines the debt snowball: list all debts smallest to largest, pay minimums on all but the smallest, and throw every extra dollar at the smallest until it's gone, then move to the next[24:51]
• Kelly has a small debt around $430 that Jade suggests they knock out immediately once they free up margin
They will connect Kelly with the EveryDollar budgeting app and a free coaching call to help her find margin and execute the plan[25:08]

Mindset: no shame in living within your means late in life

John emphasizes there is no shame in living on your hard-earned fixed income and downsizing to what you can truly afford, even if it looks different than you dreamed your 70s would[26:31]
They stress that Kelly and her husband are amazing, generous people, but they are "on the edge" and cannot absorb another financial or health emergency in their current situation[27:10]

Caller Lucy: Emergency fund size and when to start fun and sinking funds

Debt payoff completed and moving to Baby Step 3

Lucy and her husband recently paid off about $7,000 in credit card debt and are now on Baby Step 3, saving 3-6 months of expenses[27:56]

How much to save for emergencies vs. other goals

Jade explains that the 3-6 month emergency fund is strictly for emergencies, not predictable expenses; the choice between three and six months depends on job stability, health, and family situation[28:33]
• Single income, health issues, or instability point toward six months; dual high, stable incomes could justify three months, though Jade leans toward six months in today's world
Known upcoming costs like a future roof replacement or planned travel are not emergencies; they should be saved for in separate sinking funds once Baby Step 3 is complete[29:26]

When to add back fun spending

After completing Baby Step 3, Lucy can open "fun accounts" again for dining out, trips, and non-essentials while staying on the Baby Steps plan[30:39]

Caller Eric: 19-year-old with no credit score planning for a future home

Eric's strong financial start

Eric, 19, is getting married next year, has never taken out debt, paid cash for his car, and built a 500 sq ft mini-home on his parents' 21-acre property with cash[35:03]
He works part-time in pest control making about $30,000; his fiancée will soon graduate nursing school with a job lined up around $75,000, putting their first-year household income near $100,000[36:15]

Concern about not having a credit score

They will carry about $15,000 in her student loans into marriage, which Eric hopes to pay off in the first year; they worry about qualifying for a mortgage later with no credit score[36:09]
Jade urges them not to rush into buying a house simply to check boxes after marriage and to remember their debt-free habits have produced excellent "fruit" so far[37:02]

Manual underwriting and meaning of a credit score

John explains he bought a house with a zero credit score using manual underwriting: sending tax returns, proof of employment, and letters to a lender who evaluates the file by hand[38:16]
• A credit score does not measure wealth, only how well someone has "dated" banks by borrowing and paying back debt; you can have millions and a zero score
They recommend paying off the student loan quickly, then allowing the score to disappear and working with a lender who offers manual underwriting when they're truly ready to buy[39:31]

Strategy: slow down and build cash

John suggests staying in the tiny home for 2 years; with their income and minimal expenses, they could save $75,000-$85,000 in cash toward a future house[40:12]
• If the 500 sq ft space becomes too tight, renting an apartment is still an option without abandoning their debt-free approach
John reflects that if he could tell his younger self one thing, it would be to slow down and not rush into big purchases like houses and trucks out of impatience[41:16]

Caller Hattie: Temptation to use a line of credit "hack" on new mortgage

Velocity banking pitch Hattie encountered

Hattie and her husband are about to purchase their first home and she has seen social media content promoting a $10,000 line of credit strategy to make bulk mortgage payments and run paychecks through the LOC[44:26]

John's strong advice: delete social media and solve for peace

John bluntly tells her to delete Instagram or Facebook for 60 days and to solve for one thing only: peace, not tiny arbitrage gains[45:41]
• He shares his own experience of overcomplicating accounts to chase 1.8% differences and being reminded by a friend he should be solving for peace, not small gains
He characterizes these complicated schemes as "a whole bunch of work" for relatively tiny amounts of savings[46:51]

Simple alternative: just pay extra on the mortgage

John and Jade recommend a straightforward 15-year mortgage with extra principal payments instead of complex LOC strategies[46:26]
• Hattie has an accounting background and admits she ran the numbers and realized the perks of the LOC scheme aren't that meaningful
Given Hattie's health issues (MS) and disability status, John stresses that stress magnifies symptoms and that simplifying finances helps protect her health and marriage[47:01]
He also challenges any internal narrative that she has to earn her place in the home by engineering a clever payoff plan; her role as an "agent of peace" is more valuable[48:40]

Caller Nicole: Fitting adoption or surrogacy into the Baby Steps

Nicole's situation and desire for children

Nicole (30) and her husband (34) want children but must adopt or use a surrogate; they have some debt, some savings, and he is about to start a business[54:38]
They want to prioritize having kids due to age and the likely extended time needed for adoption or surrogacy[54:43]

Costs of surrogacy vs adoption

Nicole mentions hearing that surrogacy can cost $50,000-$100,000; Jade responds that current surrogacy costs can range from about $90,000 to $200,000 including compensation and medical procedures[55:45]
Adoption through an agency can range from about $30,000 to $60,000, with possible tax credits and other assistance reducing net cost[55:45]

How to approach funding without debt

Jade is firm that they should not go into debt for adoption or surrogacy, emphasizing the emotional and financial risk if things do not go as hoped[55:16]
They advise treating the cost like a large savings goal, using a Baby Step-style approach: cover minimum obligations, then put all available margin toward the adoption/surrogacy fund[58:25]
• Nicole should build a detailed EveryDollar budget, calculate monthly margin, project how long it will take to save, then look for ways to increase income (extra shifts, side work) to accelerate
John notes that with surrogacy at $90,000-$200,000, it would be irresponsible to tell them to just "go for it" without significant planning, as that would create massive stress on top of an already emotional process[59:30]

Caller Sue: Husband's gambling, infidelity, and missing savings

Discovery of financial and marital betrayal

Sue, 54, married with a child, recently discovered her husband depleted their savings and their child's college account due to gambling, and she also learned of further infidelity[1:07:05]
She has started a new job sensing something was wrong, and sees that it could eventually support her family, but she feels stuck at a "T-section" about the future of the marriage[1:07:25]

Decision about staying or leaving the marriage

Sue says she does not feel it is safe for her or her daughter's peace to remain in the marriage given repeated betrayal despite earlier promises to reconcile[1:08:10]
John validates her fear and notes she is right to be concerned about sexual betrayal, her health, and financial recklessness, which together mean the current marriage effectively no longer exists as it was[1:08:25]

Immediate financial safety steps

Regardless of whether she stays or leaves, John insists she must immediately ensure basic financial safety: her own checking account, control of income, and clarity on obligations like housing and transportation[1:09:02]
• Sue has already opened her own account, and her new income is being used for groceries and school fees, but she is only able to save "pennies" at this point
John urges her to stop trying to solve problems seven steps ahead (like retirement) and instead focus on Step 1: getting her and her daughter into a safe, stable situation today[1:09:30]

Engaging professionals for guidance

If she decides the marriage is over, John tells her to pause and call an attorney to learn the legal and financial steps in order and not navigate this alone[1:11:01]
If she wants to attempt reconciliation, he insists she must call a licensed therapist because the situation is too complex and painful to handle without professional help[1:11:01]

Helping her daughter process and feel safe

Sue's daughter is a high-school junior and already aware of much of the situation; John suggests taking her out for a special breakfast, even skipping school, to have an honest talk[1:11:20]
• He advises Sue not to trash-talk her husband to their daughter but to tell the truth: that she's scared, heartbroken, and working on a plan to keep them both safe
He emphasizes two key gifts for her daughter: confirming she's not crazy and giving her permission to feel sad, and making it clear that Mom has a plan and the daughter is not responsible for taking care of Mom[1:13:14]

Protecting credit and next financial steps

Jade urges Sue to pull her credit reports from all three bureaus and freeze her credit to prevent her husband from opening new accounts in her name; Sue has already frozen her credit[1:14:35]
They will give her access to EveryDollar and Financial Peace University so she can build a budget for herself and her daughter and know where every dollar is going[1:14:28]

Listener Gabriel: Ethical dilemma about working on video game content

Gabriel's background and conviction

Gabriel has developed skills making 3D digital models for video games and could make significant money doing commission work[1:15:47]
He stopped playing video games months ago out of a conviction to "grow up," and has benefited by connecting more with friends, reading his Bible, and attending church activities; he fears this work might pull him back into that world[1:16:05]

Hosts' wrestling with integrity and work

John shares his own tension using social media professionally while seeing its negative cultural impact, distinguishing between putting good into a problematic space versus directly participating in something you left behind[1:16:31]
Jade distinguishes between a moral conviction (believing games are harmful) and a productivity/resource issue (games wasting his time); in Gabriel's question, she hears more of a productivity issue but notes his fear of being pulled back[1:18:42]

Advice: honor your peace and integrity

They agree that if Gabriel feels this work would compromise his personal integrity or drag him back into a world he left, no amount of money is worth that loss of peace[1:20:24]
John compares it loosely to someone previously addicted to alcohol taking a bartending job; the risk of relapse makes the environment dangerous regardless of the pay[1:19:24]
They praise Gabriel for even asking the question instead of blindly chasing money, framing it as a sign of maturity and strong internal compass[1:20:24]

Insurance and wills: Tom's term life insurance decision and general guidance

Tom's question about keeping a small term policy

Tom, 65, once had about $1 million in term life coverage when raising four kids; he's down to one $250,000 policy with seven years left at $711/year[1:26:41]
He and his wife have no debt and hold $7-8 million in assets, and he wonders if he should keep or drop the remaining policy since they effectively "don't need" the insurance[1:26:36]

Hosts' response: effectively self-insured

Jade notes the point of term life is to protect dependents until you can self-insure; with their wealth, the $250,000 wouldn't change his wife's life, and the $711/year wouldn't either[1:27:24]
There is no right or wrong answer; they suggest asking his wife if the coverage gives her any extra peace, then deciding together whether to keep or drop it[1:27:33]
John praises Tom for having built enough wealth that his wife would be okay financially if he died tomorrow, calling that an excellent position[1:28:24]

General term life insurance teaching

Jade reiterates that they recommend term life (not whole life) at 10-12 times your income for anyone whose income is depended on by others, including stay-at-home spouses whose work would need to be replaced[1:27:43]
John notes he carries a policy on his wife as well, since her death would create real costs for childcare, support, and lost income while he grieved and reorganized life[1:28:24]
They stress that employer-provided coverage is often only enough for burial and not true income replacement, so separate term policies are crucial[1:28:54]

Estate planning and wills overview

Jade explains basic will considerations: who receives your assets, who cares for minor children, and who makes decisions if you're incapacitated[2:38:38]
She notes that if an estate is under $1 million, an online will is often an appropriate and less expensive option as long as it complies with state law[2:39:30]
She advises couples to set aside time intentionally to work through these uncomfortable but necessary conversations about death and incapacity[2:40:20]

Caller Sarah: HELOC vs home loan vs cash for major renovation

Scope of the renovation and savings so far

Sarah bought her grandmother's house 2.5 years ago knowing it needed a down-to-the-studs renovation estimated at about $250,000, including two full kitchens and major systems updates[1:39:00]
She has saved $75,000 toward the project, has an emergency fund and retirement in place, and expects the finished basement to rent for about $2,000/month[1:39:22]

Question about HELOC vs waiting to pay cash

Sarah wonders if she should take out a HELOC or loan now to renovate and start earning rental income, or wait 4-5 years to save enough cash to fund the entire project[1:39:52]

Hosts warn against assuming "it's cheaper to do it all at once" if you can't afford it

Jade challenges the assumption that doing all work at once is financially smarter if it requires borrowing; if you can't afford it, the math about marginal savings is irrelevant[1:41:02]
John notes Ramsey Solutions exists because people take out big HELOCs expecting quick payback, then life happens-illness, job loss, market changes-and they end up in crisis[1:40:41]

Phasing and prioritizing work with cash

John asks if she can phase the project, using the $75,000 to renovate her primary kitchen and necessary electrical/plumbing in that area first, then pausing before finishing the rest[1:41:33]
He points out that if they open a large HELOC, lenders may approve more than they initially want, and costs can balloon as they upgrade fixtures and expand scope[1:42:07]
They recommend avoiding putting her grandmother's house at risk by securing a large loan against it, and instead doing smaller phases in cash even if that means delaying rental income[1:41:54]

Caller Brian: New vs used $40,000 car while building wealth

Brian's financial position and car budget

Brian is in his late 20s, on Baby Steps 4 and 6, earns about $200,000, and has a total nest egg of around $830,000 including retirement, taxable accounts, cash, HSA, and home equity[1:47:11]
He wants to spend $40,000 in cash on a car and asks whether it matters financially if he buys new or used at that price point[1:47:51]

New car depreciation vs used car value

John explains that the moment you drive a new car off the lot, it's worth the previous year's used model, often burning around $10,000 in value immediately on a $40,000 vehicle[1:48:16]
They suggest buying a slightly used RAV4 (e.g., one model year old) so someone else eats the initial depreciation while he still gets a newer, reliable car[1:49:09]

Rule-of-thumb and timing considerations

Ramsey's rule-of-thumb is not owning vehicles (or toys with wheels) worth more than half of your annual take-home pay; at $200,000 income, a $40,000 car is well within that guideline[1:49:42]
They say he's close to the arbitrary "millionaire" benchmark where burning $10,000 in depreciation is less consequential, but still challenge him to consider waiting a bit or buying used to avoid setting $10,000 on fire[1:50:12]
John recommends asking whether the new-car smell is worth roughly three months of his $3,000 mortgage payment as a mental framing tool[1:50:39]

Caller Kira: Converting 401(k) to Roth and where it fits in the Baby Steps

Kira's 401(k) and Roth conversion option

Kira's employer allows in-plan conversion from traditional 401(k) to Roth 401(k); the company match only applies to contributions to the traditional side[1:58:06]
She has about $330,000 in the 401(k) that could be converted and wants to know if she should start doing this and how to manage the tax impact without jumping tax brackets[1:57:49]

Tax implications and Baby Step order

Kira correctly notes that converting counts as taxable income on the amount converted; she worries about moving into a higher bracket if she converted it all at once[1:59:10]
Jade explains that while Roth growth is attractive, the act of converting a large balance is more of a Baby Step 7 move because of the large tax bill and should come after paying off the home[1:59:19]
They recommend prioritizing paying off her house (Baby Step 6) before aggressively converting the large existing 401(k) balance to Roth[2:00:36]

Possible compromise: convert current contributions

John and Jade consider a middle path: continue contributing to the traditional 401(k) to get the full match, then periodically convert only the current year's contributions, which she would have paid tax on anyway[1:59:54]
They note there will be a cost either way-foregone tax-free Roth growth or keeping the mortgage longer-so they lean toward removing the guaranteed obligation (the house) before tackling Roth conversions of the backlog[2:01:08]

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

When money from family comes with a history of control and emotional strings, your first priority must be setting clear boundaries and deciding, as a couple, what's best for your household regardless of their reactions.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in my life am I allowing someone else's money or generosity to quietly dictate my choices?
  • • How could I communicate clearer expectations about what a true no-strings-attached gift looks like for me and my family?
  • • What specific boundary around money with relatives do I need to articulate or reinforce this month?
2

Housing that is emotionally meaningful but mathematically unsustainable will eventually crush you; right-sizing your home to what your income can truly support is an act of stewardship, not failure.

Reflection Questions:

  • • If I looked at my current housing purely as a line item, would it still make sense at my current income level?
  • • How might my stress level change if my housing costs were no more than 25% of my take-home pay?
  • • What concrete step could I take in the next 30 days to explore more sustainable housing options, even if I choose not to move yet?
3

Complicated financial "hacks" and arbitrage schemes rarely beat the combination of simple structures, extra principal payments, and consistently solving for peace instead of tiny percentage gains.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What financial systems in my life feel more complicated than they need to be, and why am I keeping them that way?
  • • How would my decisions change if I evaluated them primarily on the peace and clarity they create instead of on theoretical returns?
  • • What is one complex financial tactic I can simplify or stop using this quarter to reduce cognitive load and risk?
4

Big life goals like adoption, surrogacy, or major renovations should be treated as large savings projects, not reasons to take on new debt-especially when the emotional stakes are high and outcomes are uncertain.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which major goal in my life am I currently tempted to accelerate with debt instead of patience and planning?
  • • How would my risk profile change if I committed to funding that goal only with cash, even if it takes longer?
  • • What income or expense changes could I realistically make over the next year to build a dedicated fund for this goal?
5

When you uncover financial or marital betrayal, your first responsibility is to secure safety and clarity-separate accounts, credit protection, legal and therapeutic support-before trying to solve long-term questions.

Reflection Questions:

  • • If a crisis hit my household tomorrow, would I know exactly what accounts exist, what we owe, and where critical documents are?
  • • How might I better separate "today's safety steps" from "long-term planning" when I feel overwhelmed by a big problem?
  • • What professional (attorney, therapist, financial coach) do I most need to contact in the next week to gain clarity and support?
6

Your personal convictions and sense of integrity are worth more than any short-term income opportunity; if work risks pulling you back into a world you intentionally left, the cost to your peace is too high.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What type of work or environment have I previously walked away from that I should be wary of reentering, even for good money?
  • • How do I physically feel when I imagine saying yes to an opportunity that conflicts with my values versus saying no?
  • • What boundary or filter could I put in place to quickly evaluate future opportunities against my core convictions before accepting them?

Episode Summary - Notes by River

You Can Stay Broke Or Start Changing
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