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The Mel Robbins Podcast

How to Create a Successful Mindset: The Science of Passion and Perseverance

with Angela Duckworth

Published October 13, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

Mel Robbins interviews psychologist and author Angela Duckworth about grit-the combination of passion and perseverance for long-term goals-and how it predicts success better than talent alone. Duckworth explains the science behind growth mindset, deliberate practice, interest, purpose, and hope, and how each contributes to developing grit at any age. The conversation offers concrete strategies such as sampling interests, practicing deliberately, reframing "should" into "I want to," designing supportive environments, and building small wins to increase agency and resilience.

Topics Covered

Grit Growth mindset Personal Development Persistence Habits Goal setting Work ethic Parenting and child development Mental health Self-talk

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Quick Takeaways

  • Grit is a combination of passion and perseverance for long-term goals, and it is developed over time rather than fixed at birth.
  • High achievers focus more on consistency than intensity, aiming for many "8 out of 10" efforts rather than rare bursts of perfection.
  • Talent matters, but effort counts twice: it turns talent into skill and skill into tangible achievement.
  • Interest is the seed of passion, and you discover it by sampling real experiences, not just thinking or journaling about possibilities.
  • Deliberate practice requires a specific goal, full concentration, and immediate feedback, and these high-quality hours are what truly drive excellence.
  • A growth mindset-believing abilities can change-transforms failures into learning opportunities instead of evidence of fixed limitation.
  • Purpose comes from feeling part of and in service to something larger than yourself, often discovered by noticing what problems in the world really bother you.
  • Hope is the belief that your actions can make the future better, and it is strengthened most by small wins that prove your efforts matter.
  • Environment design, such as keeping your phone physically distant, is a powerful way to protect focus and self-control.
  • You are more likely to sustain grit when you join or build a supportive team instead of attempting big goals entirely alone.

Podcast Notes

Introduction and reframing what creates success

Mel challenges common beliefs about talent and willpower

Many people assume wildly successful people were simply born different[0:03]
• Mel lists doubts listeners may have: "They must have been born with something I'm never going to have," "Why can't I stick with this?" "Why am I not consistent?"
Mel reassures listeners they are not lazy or broken[0:30]
• She says the missing piece is not talent but something else: grit and purpose-driven hard work
Grit as the real driver of greatness[0:35]
• Mel states that talent does not make people great; grit and hard work do, especially when powered by a purpose that won't let you quit
Focus of the episode: the mindset of high achievers and psychology of perseverance[0:52]
• Mel frames the conversation as digging into "the real science of success" and emphasizes that success is not luck, IQ, or rare gifts
Definition of grit as passion and perseverance for long-term goals[1:12]
• Mel describes grit as the mental toughness to keep showing up when things are boring, hard, or discouraging, and notes it involves self-belief over the long term
Grit is built, not inborn[1:28]
• Mel emphasizes that grit is not something you are born with; it is something you can build at any time

Guest introduction and promise to the listener

Welcoming new and returning listeners

Mel expresses excitement and gratitude for listeners choosing to spend time on the podcast[4:44]
She personally welcomes new listeners and those who had the episode shared with them[4:49]

Angela Duckworth's background and credentials

Professional roles and recognition[5:12]
• Angela Duckworth is introduced as a pioneering researcher, bestselling author, and "total powerhouse" in human performance
• She is a MacArthur Genius Grant recipient and a professor of psychology at the University of Pennsylvania
• She is founder and CEO of Character Lab, a nonprofit advancing the science of character development
• She wrote the #1 New York Times bestselling book "Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance," translated into over 40 languages
• Her TED Talk has been viewed over 30 million times
Where Angela's research is applied[5:06]
• Her research on grit, self-control, and high achievement is used at West Point, in the NBA and NFL, Fortune 500 companies, and public schools

Angela addresses the listener's potential for excellence

What can change if you take the science seriously[6:57]
• Angela says if you take to heart what science has discovered about motivation and achievement, you gain the possibility of glimpsing excellence in your own life
• She frames her work as helping people achieve what they are capable of achieving
Angela's view that everyone is ambitious[6:12]
• She originally wondered if she would only study a small sliver of "super ambitious" people but concluded that everyone is ambitious in wanting to be as great as they can be

Defining grit: passion, perseverance, and consistency

What high achievers have in common

Grit as the common denominator of elite achievers[9:01]
• Angela defines the common denominator of high achievers as a special combination of passion and perseverance for long-term goals, which she calls grit

Two components of grit: passion and perseverance

Passion defined as long-term, enduring interest[8:10]
• Passion is loving something and staying in love with it, not constantly wandering off to something else
• She describes passion as having a "North Star" and a devotion over years
Perseverance defined as hard work and resilience[8:40]
• Perseverance includes hard work, practicing what you can't yet do, and resilience-getting up again on really bad days
• When passion for long-term goals is married with perseverance for long-term goals, you get grit, which Angela finds in elite achievers across fields

Is grit innate or developed?

Angela acknowledges both genes and environment[9:16]
• She says any positive psychological trait is partly influenced by genes but also very much shaped by what we know, who we are around, and the places we go

Surprising finding: consistency beats intensity

Angela expected high achievers to look like "11 out of 10" intense people[16:07]
• She thought gritty people would be constantly extreme in enthusiasm and effort, but research showed otherwise
Elite performers are more consistent than extreme[15:43]
• She cites swimming coach Bob Bowman, who said Michael Phelps and Leon Marchand give him an "8 out of 10" effort consistently rather than 10 or 11 out of 10
• Racking up many "8 out of 10" days without missing is what makes them special
• Gritty individuals do fall off the horse and doubt themselves but get back on, maintaining long-term consistency
Consistency defined realistically[17:26]
• Mel notes Michael Phelps went 10 years practicing 365 days a year; Angela calls this unusual and says rest days are generally good
• Angela suggests defining your own standard of consistency (e.g., 5 days a week) and writing it down as a goal
• She distinguishes consistency from intensity: do the planned work as prescribed and repeat it over time, rather than "killing it" sporadically

Growth mindset and belief in change

Definition of growth versus fixed mindset

Growth mindset as a theory of human ability[10:35]
• Angela defines growth mindset as the belief that human ability is fundamentally changeable
Fixed mindset as the opposing theory[10:42]
• Fixed mindset is the belief that human ability is fixed and cannot fundamentally change with effort and experience

How mindset changes responses to failure

Growth mindset leads to learning from setbacks[11:26]
• With a growth mindset, after failure you ask "What can I learn here? How can I get smarter?" and then move on
Fixed mindset leads to avoidance and contraction[11:26]
• With a fixed mindset, you avoid failure, hide problems, and your life "contracts rather than expands"

Self-fulfilling prophecy and evidence seeking

You find the evidence you look for[12:30]
• Angela describes mindset as a self-fulfilling prophecy: if you look for evidence that you can't change, you'll find it; if you look for evidence that you can grow, you'll find that too
Using neuroscience to open minds to growth[13:17]
• She and colleagues show 9th graders neuroscience evidence that the brain continues to grow and create new neurons throughout life
• She contrasts outdated teaching (brain as mostly fixed after adolescence) with current understanding that plasticity "is the name of the game" across the lifespan
• Angela states what makes humans special is not being born smart but becoming smarter throughout life, especially if you are intentional about it

High achievers as lifelong learners

Language of high achievers reflects growth mindset[15:00]
• Angela notes high achievers describe themselves as lifelong learners and cites Satya Nadella's phrase "I'm not a know-it-all, I'm a learn-it-all"
Listener already demonstrates growth by pressing play[15:16]
• Mel tells listeners that choosing to listen to this conversation shows they are lifelong learners and capable of using what they hear to improve their lives

Talent, effort, and why effort counts twice

Defining talent precisely

Talent as rate of improvement when you try[20:00]
• Angela defines talent as the rate at which you improve at something when you try; highly talented people improve a lot per hour of practice, less talented improve less
• She gives personal examples: relatively talented at psychology (learning steeply when starting her PhD), but very untalented at history, politics, and finance terminology

Common misconception: talent as deficiency

Mel's former narrow view of talent[21:45]
• Mel used to see talent only in areas like singing or athletics and experience herself as deficient by comparison
Unearthing your own talents[22:00]
• Mel identifies her talents as distilling complex information into simple concepts and communicating them, as well as cooking and arranging (flowers, etc.)

Relationship between talent and hard work

Using effort to compensate for lower talent[22:33]
• Angela says many people recognize they are not the most talented in the room but choose the mindset: "You will not outwork me"
Effort counts twice in Angela's framework[24:47]
• She explains that effort turns talent into skill, and then effort turns skill into achievement, so effort "counts twice" in the achievement equation

Four components of grit: interest, practice, purpose, hope

Component 1: Interest as the seed of passion

Curiosity as an early sign of potential passion[25:40]
• Angela says great performers in any field begin with curiosity; their mind wants to stay with a subject
Importance of noticing where the mind naturally goes[25:42]
• She suggests that what you spontaneously think about is where your genius may lie, even if you don't see yourself as "intellectual"
Interests often need to be pointed out to us[26:04]
• Story: her daughter Lucy wasn't obviously gritty but spent lots of time on baking videos and cookbooks; Angela told her "I think you're interested in cooking" and Lucy reacted as if it were obvious
Interest development is partly involuntary[27:05]
• Angela argues you can't force true interest (parents forcing piano or violin is often foolish), because interest emerges from experience rather than pressure

Sampling broadly before specializing

Advice: stop overthinking and act[30:31]
• Angela quotes her Pilates teacher: "Don't think it, just do it," urging people to stop endless reflecting and try concrete activities
Sampling as the scientific term for trying options[31:15]
• She uses the term "sampling" from motivation science: before you specialize, you must sample a variety of pursuits
• Example: a student interned at a desk job and realized sitting all day would drive him crazy; he later became a fitness instructor-knowledge he couldn't get from journaling alone
Paradox of specialization[31:57]
• Angela calls it the paradox of specialization: before becoming a "jack-of-one-trade," you usually need broad sampling of many trades
Hard Thing Rule in her family[32:47]
• Her family used the "hard thing rule" with three parts to guide sampling and perseverance for their two daughters
• Rule part 1: Everyone must do a "hard thing" that involves deliberate practice-goals, effort, and feedback; mere hanging out with no goals doesn't count
• Rule part 2: You cannot quit in the middle of a commitment; when Lucy wanted to quit track after the first meet, Angela said she could stop after finishing the season
• Rule part 3: Nobody chooses your hard thing but you; parents offer options constrained by reality (e.g., no expensive horseback riding), but children decide

Choosing "easy" before working hard

Grit Lab course structure: Choose Easy, then Work Hard[35:40]
• At University of Pennsylvania, Angela teaches "Grit Lab" where the first section "Choose Easy" focuses on interest, flow, and values-choosing what is naturally engaging
• She tells students they will never be great at something that is the hardest thing on their internal life menu; they should choose what they like thinking about and are good at
• The second section "Work Hard" comes after choosing easy, emphasizing effort and smart practice
Cultural confusion between suffering and excellence[36:57]
• Angela suspects many people conflate the inevitable hard work phase with the initial choice phase and mistakenly choose suffering instead of aligned interests
• She recounts a McKinsey consultant who made every decision by choosing the harder option, assuming more suffering was better, and later felt stuck

Deliberate practice and the 10,000-hour rule

Clarifying the 10,000-hour rule

Origin in Anders Ericsson's research[50:36]
• Angela explains that Anders Ericsson studied top violinists and found the best had about 10,000 hours of high-quality practice, with lower groups having fewer hours
• The popular takeaway became "you need 10,000 hours" but Ericsson emphasized quality of practice, not just quantity

Three elements of deliberate practice

Deliberate practice must be goal-directed[51:55]
• You focus on a specific goal, usually something you're weak at, with a mental picture of what you want to do that you can't yet execute
Full effort and concentration are required[52:48]
• Angela contrasts deliberate practice with her jogging, where she had no goals and only half-attention while listening to podcasts
Immediate feedback closes the loop[52:53]
• You get feedback on what you did well and what you didn't do well enough, and then repeat the cycle repeatedly

Most of our practice is low-quality

Why 10,000 hours of casual practice doesn't work[52:29]
• Angela jokes that if she counted all her jogging hours she should be Usain Bolt; Ericsson pointed out she lacked goals, full effort, and feedback, making it low-quality practice
Practical formula for getting better at anything[54:33]
• Mel summarizes deliberate practice as: put in the hours, have a clear goal, exert real effort, and ask for feedback after each attempt
• Angela agrees this applies to individuals and organizations; she praises the podcast team for routinely seeking feedback and learning from it

Embracing failure, shame, and beginner's mind

How children naturally learn from mistakes

Babies and toddlers show no shame in failure[56:43]
• Angela cites research that babies and toddlers repeatedly fail (sitting up, walking) with lots of error, challenge, concentration, and feedback-but no visible embarrassment

How adults teach shame around mistakes

Kindergarten as a turning point[57:13]
• Around kindergarten, children notice adult reactions (frowns, tone, rushing to correct) and begin associating mistakes with embarrassment and fear
Recovering a beginner's mind[59:42]
• Angela encourages adults to reclaim the "beginner's mind" of being a rookie without self-consciousness
• She shares a story of taking a hip-hop class in New York, feeling extremely awkward compared to highly skilled classmates, and never returning-an example of shame blocking learning
• She notes that embarrassment and self-consciousness are now "second nature" but also major impediments to learning

Perseverance, consistency, and seeking help

Valuing non-zero effort and small deposits

Three out of ten effort still matters[1:01:15]
• Angela says the bigger problem than low effort (e.g., "3 out of 10") is zero; any non-zero effort is a deposit toward progress
Deposit metaphor from Bob Bowman[1:02:59]
• She shares Bowman's advice that every practice is like putting money in the bank-sometimes $1, sometimes $0.10, sometimes $100-and you withdraw it on race day

Talk to others instead of only yourself when stuck

Psychological distance via others[1:04:01]
• Angela references Ethan Kross's work on psychological distance and says it's easier for other people to be objective about your rut than for you to be
Role of teammates, mentors, and coaches[1:05:00]
• She recommends talking to teammates, mentors, coaches, or colleagues when plateaued, because they can notice patterns and suggest changes you can't see
• She cautions that people in burnout often dig inward instead of looking outward, but outward conversations are usually more helpful

Purpose and calling: beyond-the-self motivation

Component 3 of grit: Purpose

Definition of purpose[1:10:37]
• Angela defines purpose as feeling that you are part of and in service to something larger than yourself
Human desire to be helpful[1:10:53]
• She believes most people would rather help than be helped and that many have lost their connection and responsibility to others

Prompt for discovering personal purpose

Question: What problem really bothers you?[1:11:57]
• Angela cites a study by David Yeager where teenagers are asked to write about a problem in the world that really annoys or angers them as an entry point to purpose
• She suggests this question can reveal "what is in your heart that hurts" and point toward where you might want to make a difference

Integrating interest and purpose in everyday life

Example: Mel's love of flowers and helping a neighbor[1:12:56]
• Mel describes organizing friends to help a sick flower farmer, combining her interest in flowers with purposeful service, which gave her a deep sense of meaning

Avoid equating virtue with misery

Angela's earlier belief that more suffering = more virtuous[1:16:04]
• She recalls doing a huge amount of public service in youth and believing that the more tired and unhappy she was, the more virtuous the act
Marrying purpose to interests[1:16:54]
• Now she believes you should focus on problems that both matter to you and align with your interests (e.g., psychology for her, flowers for Mel) instead of always going against the grain
• She says when interests and values marry, that creates passion

Job, career, and calling: bricklayer parable

Three ways to relate to your work[1:18:27]
• Angela recounts the parable: one bricklayer says "I'm laying bricks" (job), another "I'm building a church" (career), the third "I'm building the house of God" (calling)
Callings are not tied to job titles[1:19:29]
• Research shows that having a calling is associated with greater happiness and better performance, and that calling status is not determined by job type but by how people see their work
Original religious meaning and modern science[1:20:29]
• The term "calling" originally referred to being called by God; contemporary research returns to a similar idea of being given a task by a higher power or larger cause
Feeling needed as part of purpose[1:21:15]
• Angela says many people deeply need to feel needed and to have a task that feels like it must be them doing it

Reframing everyday work as service

Question: Who benefits if I do my job well?[1:23:30]
• She advises asking, "Who benefits when I do my job well?" as a practical way to see purpose in any role
Example of the crossing guard[1:23:44]
• Angela describes a local school crossing guard who greets children with visible warmth; she notes how his work ensures safety and starts kids' days with affection and attention

Hope, agency, and building small wins

Component 4 of grit: Hope as agentic belief

Hope as action-oriented expectation[1:25:00]
• Angela defines hope as believing the future can be better than the past and believing there is something you can do to make it so
• She distinguishes "I have a feeling tomorrow will be better" from "I resolve to make tomorrow better," emphasizing agency

Albert Bandura's four drivers of agency

1) Physiological state of wellness[1:27:56]
• Bandura found that feeling physically well-having energy and not being exhausted or sick-supports a sense of "I can do this if I try"
2) Verbal persuasion (pep talks)[1:28:15]
• Encouragement from others (e.g., "I've seen you do this before") can boost agency, though it's not the strongest source
3) Modeling[1:29:05]
• Seeing someone else accomplish a task, especially someone you identify with, creates a sense that it is possible for you as well
• Bandura's experiments showed children would replicate how adults played with toys after watching them through a window
4) Mastery experiences / small wins[1:29:49]
• Bandura found the most important driver of agency is actual mastery experiences-small wins that show you can succeed when you try

Using small wins to fight discouragement

Angela's practice when discouraged writing her book[1:30:09]
• When deeply discouraged, she writes an extremely simple to-do list (e.g., "open Google Doc"), completes each step, and checks it off to create quick wins
Reframing hopelessness as "too big"[1:31:40]
• She suggests that when you feel hopeless about a task, interpret it as "too big" rather than impossible and shrink it to a smaller, doable step

Self-talk, "should," and authentic motivation

The burden of "should" and introjected motivation

Introjection: stuck between extrinsic and intrinsic[40:15]
• Angela explains that some motivations get stuck at the "should" stage (e.g., "I should go to medical school"), driven by others' expectations and exhausting to live with
Therapist's suggestion to ban "should"[41:57]
• Angela's therapist suggested banning the word "should" and instead explaining actions without using it
• When she tried to replace "I should" with other language, she found phrases like "I want to help this young person" emerging instead
• She concluded that living mainly in service to "shoulds" is not actually serving others well and is inauthentic to oneself

Teams, environment design, and the power of distance from temptation

Why no journey is taken alone

Commercial "No Journey is Taken Alone" as metaphor[1:33:04]
• Angela describes a Toyota Olympic commercial where athletes are surrounded by parents, coaches, and friends during their race, underscoring collective support
Co-founders and teams outperform solo efforts[1:33:54]
• She notes founders are statistically less successful than co-founders and that top incubators often only fund teams, believing big goals are "too hard" alone
Joining local communities (e.g., running clubs)[1:34:54]
• Angela recently learned there are about 30 running clubs in Philadelphia and views running with others as more fun and sustainable than running alone

Cell phones, focus, and school policies

National study of school cell phone policies[1:34:54]
• Angela is running the first national study of school cell phone policies via a survey for teachers at phonesandfocus.org
Stricter policies linked with better outcomes[1:37:16]
• Preliminary data from tens of thousands of teachers show that stricter phone policies are associated with happier educators and more on-task students
Physical distance from phones reduces distraction[1:37:26]
• Schools that require phones to be stored away from students (not in pockets or backpacks) tend to have better outcomes than "no show" policies where phones stay on students
• Angela summarizes: "The farther the phone, the higher the GPA" in her research, because physical distance from temptation creates psychological distance

Personal environment design: what you want more or less of

Use personal space as a design rule[1:39:26]
• Angela tells students to stretch out their arms: what's within that radius is personal space; things within reach and sight are more likely to be used
Bring desired behaviors closer, push temptations farther[1:40:19]
• She advises keeping what you want more of (e.g., a book) within personal space, and what you want less of (e.g., a phone or other temptation) physically distant or hidden
• She notes how even a short distance, like a book upstairs, can be enough friction to prevent action

Final advice, assignments, and closing stories

Choosing one homework assignment

Don't try to do everything at once[1:40:44]
• Angela notes elite performers practice one thing at a time, not three, and suggests listeners pick a single assignment from the episode
Examples of possible assignments[1:41:29]
• Options include: doing a curiosity conversation, moving a temptation out of personal space, banning "should" for 24 hours, or joining a team/club
Consistency as the path to glimpsing potential[1:41:23]
• Angela reiterates that if your effort is never zero-whether 1, 2, or 3 out of 10-you will glimpse your potential over time

Amanda's insight: "We're all trying"

Story of tucking in her daughter[1:41:31]
• After a hard day with her kindergarten-age daughter Amanda, Angela told her "You have been trying"; Amanda replied, "Mommy, we're all trying"
Belief that everyone is good and ambitious inside[1:42:07]
• Angela nearly cried and took this as a reminder that everyone is good inside and ambitious, and her mission is to help people try more wisely

Mel's closing encouragement to listeners

Recognizing listeners as "trying" too[1:43:14]
• Mel tells listeners that by pressing play and staying through the episode, they are also trying to create a better life
Affirmation of belief in listener's ability to change[1:43:22]
• She says she loves them as a friend, believes in them, and believes the research and assignments from Angela will help them create a better life

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Consistency of effort, even at a modest level, matters far more for long-term achievement than occasional bursts of intense effort.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your life are you relying on rare bursts of intensity instead of showing up with a steady, repeatable level of effort?
  • • How might your results change over the next six months if you committed to a realistic "8 out of 10" effort most days instead of chasing perfection?
  • • What is one specific habit you could do at a low but consistent level this week to move a meaningful goal forward without ever letting it drop to zero?
2

You are far more likely to develop grit if you first choose pursuits that genuinely interest you and feel "easy" to think about, then layer hard work on top of that alignment.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What activities or topics do you naturally think about or get energy from, even when nobody is asking you to?
  • • In what ways have you been choosing paths primarily because they are hard or impressive, rather than because they align with your authentic interests?
  • • What is one small experiment you could run in the next month to "sample" a new activity that actually feels easy and engaging to you?
3

Treat abilities as improvable through deliberate practice: set specific goals, focus deeply, and seek feedback so that effort turns into skill and real-world achievement.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which skill in your life or work would benefit most from being approached with a clear practice goal and focused sessions instead of casual repetition?
  • • How could you build a simple feedback loop-through a person, a metric, or a recording-to learn faster from each practice attempt?
  • • What concrete practice plan (time, goal, feedback source) can you put in place for the next two weeks to deliberately improve one important skill?
4

Purpose and hope grow when you connect your efforts to who benefits, what problems in the world bother you, and concrete small wins that prove your actions matter.

Reflection Questions:

  • • When you ask yourself "Who benefits if I do my job well?", what names or faces come immediately to mind?
  • • Which issue in your community or the wider world genuinely frustrates or angers you enough that you would be willing to work on it in some small way?
  • • What is one tiny, very achievable action you could take in the next 48 hours that would both help someone else and give you a tangible sense of progress?
5

The way you talk to yourself-especially replacing "I should" with "I want to" where possible-can shift your motivation from guilt-driven obligation to authentic, sustainable drive.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In the past week, what recurring "I should" statements have you noticed in your inner dialogue about work, health, or relationships?
  • • How might your energy and follow-through change if you rephrased one of those "shoulds" into an honest "I want to" or clearly decided it is not a priority?
  • • What experiment can you run tomorrow to catch and rewrite your "should" language for an entire day, and what do you predict you will notice about your mood and choices?
6

Designing your environment and relationships-by distancing temptations, bringing supports closer, and joining teams-makes grit easier than relying on willpower alone.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which distractions or temptations in your physical space are currently within arm's reach that would be better kept farther away?
  • • How could joining a group, team, or accountability partner around one of your goals reduce your reliance on solo willpower?
  • • What is one specific change you can make to your environment this week (moving an object, changing where you keep your phone, altering your workspace) that would support the focus you want?

Episode Summary - Notes by Spencer

How to Create a Successful Mindset: The Science of Passion and Perseverance
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