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The Mel Robbins Podcast

How to Communicate With Confidence & Ease (From Harvard Business School's #1 Professor)

with Allison Wood Brooks

Published October 30, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

Mel Robbins interviews Harvard Business School professor and behavioral scientist Allison Wood Brooks about the science of communication. Brooks explains her TALK framework (Topics, Asking, Levity, Kindness) for improving conversations in every area of life, along with the critical role of listening and perspective-taking. They discuss practical strategies for topic preparation, asking better questions, managing status and group dynamics, handling interruptions and belittling comments, and shifting unhelpful communication patterns in relationships.

Topics Covered

Communication skills Personal development Relationships Romantic relationships Family patterns Leadership and management Friendship dynamics Social bonding Status and power dynamics Workplace dynamics

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • Every relationship in your life is essentially a repeated sequence of conversations, so even small improvements in how you talk can compound into major life changes.
  • Most people prepare outfits and logistics for social interactions but almost never prepare topics, even 30 seconds of topic prep significantly improves conversations.
  • The core obstacle to good communication is egocentrism-focusing on yourself instead of relentlessly trying to understand the other person's perspective.
  • Asking more and better follow-up questions is a powerful antidote to poor perspective-taking and directly builds connection, status, and influence.
  • Listening is three steps-hearing, thinking about what you heard, and then showing you heard it-and people only feel listened to when they get visible, verbal evidence of it.
  • Levity, including moments of humor and warmth, is the antidote to boredom in conversation and even a single successful joke can dramatically raise your perceived status.
  • Status is not fixed; it shifts by context and topic, and people can raise their status by inviting others in, asking clarifying questions, and making people laugh.
  • Kindness in communication shows up as respectful language and responsive listening, especially when conversations become heated, defensive, or hurtful.
  • Small talk is unavoidable but useful; it serves as a launchpad to more tailored and deep topics when combined with good questions and topic choices.
  • You can change entrenched, negative communication patterns in relationships by naming the pattern, apologizing where needed, and co-creating new habits together.

Podcast Notes

Introduction and episode setup

Mel introduces herself and the theme of communication

Mel situates the recording in Boston near major academic institutions[0:13]
• Mentions being surrounded by MIT, Harvard, and Harvard Business School to underscore the expertise behind the episode
Framing the episode as access to a Harvard Business School communication class[0:39]
• Mel notes Harvard Business School tuition is about $75,000 per year and positions the episode as sharing what students learn there about communication
Mel highlights the universality of wanting better communication[1:14]
• She notes people wish bosses, partners, friends, and family were more direct and better at expressing themselves, and that others would stop misunderstanding them

Introduction of guest and her credentials

Mel introduces Allison Wood Brooks and her new book[4:28]
• Allison is a Harvard Business School professor, behavioral scientist, and author of "Talk, the Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves"
Description of Allison's course at Harvard Business School[4:35]
• The course on communication is award-winning, has a wait list, and normally spans 40 lectures, which she is condensing into an hour

Why communication matters and what can change

Mel asks what will change if listeners apply the lessons

Allison says every domain of life can improve through better conversation[5:38]
• She lists love life, relationships with children and parents, work relationships, and collaborations as areas that can all benefit
Concept of relationships as repeated sequences of conversations[5:54]
• Allison frames every relationship as a series of conversations over time, where small improvements in each conversation improve the overall relationship

Why communication is "everything"

Allison explains conversations as streams of micro-decisions[6:42]
• She lists choices such as what to talk about, what to ask, when to laugh or cry, when to disclose or stay silent as constant micro-decisions during dialogue
How conversation shapes what we can do together[6:47]
• She says these micro-decisions determine what people can accomplish together, what they learn about each other, and ultimately who they are and what they can do in the world

Origin of the Harvard communication course

Course title and intentional use of "gooder"

Mel asks why the course is called "Talk, How to Talk Gooder in Business and Life"[7:35]
• Allison says getting the grammatically incorrect title approved at Harvard was a major professional achievement because it sits among very serious course titles
Dual meanings of the playful title[8:08]
• She explains it signals balancing gravity and levity: taking work seriously while also maintaining fun, and that "gooder" anchors the course in the goal of being good and kind in conversations

How Allison came to create the course

Initial recruitment to teach negotiation at Harvard[9:12]
• Allison was recruited after PhD work at Wharton, where she studied emotions and how people talk about feelings, including in negotiations
Realization that negotiation skills aren't enough[10:17]
• She notes formal negotiations (house, car, salary) are relatively infrequent compared to everyday conversations, and many Harvard students are already strategic, so she saw a gap in teaching them to be engaging, funny, dynamic, and empathic
Lack of existing courses on everyday conversation[10:47]
• Allison says Harvard had tried different approaches over the years but no conversation course had stuck, leading her to create "Talk"

Why communication is challenging and the role of egocentrism

Common conversational mistakes

Allison lists a long "laundry list" of errors people make[12:08]
• Examples include choosing wrong topics, failing to raise important topics, asking too few or too many questions, talking too much about oneself, not focusing on the other, bragging, humble bragging, and giving backhanded compliments
Need for a simple framework[12:41]
• She argues people cannot keep an exhaustive rule list in mind, so they need a simple organizing framework to navigate the complexity of real conversations

Benefits of becoming a better communicator

Status as an outcome of communication skill[13:08]
• Allison defines status as likeability, respect, and power ("Riz" in contemporary slang) within a group, not social class, and says better communication helps gain and maintain higher status
Implications across contexts[14:03]
• Mel summarizes that applying this science can increase respect and influence at home, work, school, or in any group where being listened to and admired matters

Egocentrism as the core barrier

Definition of egocentrism[14:45]
• Allison describes humans as naturally self-focused, oriented toward survival and their own perspective, which helped in hunter-gatherer contexts but now impedes connection
Need to fight self-centered instincts[15:22]
• She says people must "relentlessly fight" against self-centered instincts and the default mindset of "what's in this for me" in order to truly focus on others

Difficulty of perspective-taking

Perspective failures as top barrier to conflict resolution[14:58]
• Allison cites consensus that failures in understanding others' minds are the single greatest barrier to resolving conflict and forming connection
Tendency to project our own feelings[16:23]
• She notes people rely on their own beliefs and feelings to infer others' internal states and are usually bad at it, leading to misunderstanding

Introduction to the TALK framework

Overview of the four components

Allison names TALK: Topics, Asking, Levity, Kindness[16:40]
• She notes the semester-long Harvard course unpacks these in depth, but in this episode she will give a step-by-step condensed version

T: Topics - choosing and preparing what to talk about

Concept of topics and mental chunking

How brains segment conversations into topics[17:37]
• Allison explains that after a conversation, people can easily recall it as a sequence of topics, which reflects our brain's ability to chunk information

Topic preparation for situations like dates

Most people prepare everything except topics[19:59]
• She notes people obsess over clothes, hair, makeup, and restaurant reservations for dates but only about 10% think about what they will talk about
Definition and value of topic prep[20:58]
• Topic prep means spending even brief time before an interaction brainstorming fun or meaningful things to talk about with that person
Empirical finding: 30 seconds of topic prep helps[21:20]
• In research, participants who spent 30 seconds brainstorming possible topics had more enjoyable, fluent conversations with less anxiety, even if they never used the specific prepped topics
Benefits of having backup topics[22:14]
• Topic prep reduces "panicky moments" when a conversation lulls by giving you ready options, increasing topic switching and helping find mutually interesting subjects

Applying topic prep in daily life

Using topic prep with children in the morning[23:31]
• Instead of only logistical reminders like "remember your trumpet," parents can prepare questions about band, feelings about activities, and what kids are excited or nervous about
Using topic prep with colleagues[23:51]
• For a quiet colleague who just had a baby or gave a big presentation, you can prepare questions about how it's going, what was hard, and how you can help
Using topic prep with aging parents[25:14]
• Allison shares that her sister used ChatGPT to brainstorm tailored questions for parents in their 70s in upstate New York with nine grandchildren, to better understand what they'd like to be asked
AI as a tool for topic ideas[25:45]
• She suggests using AI to ask what a certain demographic or even a specific difficult colleague would want to talk about or hear from you

Topic prep and introverts

Reframing topic prep as a gift to introverts[26:55]
• Allison says introverts often panic because they "don't know what to say"; topic prep can become their greatest tool by reducing anxiety and giving structure

A: Asking - the power of questions

Why asking questions is a superpower

Questions reduce cognitive load during conversation[27:43]
• Allison describes conversation as cognitively demanding (listening, processing, creativity to respond), and says asking questions is a powerful in-the-moment tool that doesn't require prior prep

Never-ending follow-up questions exercise

Allison demonstrates the exercise with Mel[29:27]
• She repeatedly asks follow-ups about Mel's breakfast (smoothie contents, dream breakfast, preference for variety), showing how each answer leads to the next question
Effect on the person being questioned[30:27]
• Mel reports feeling that Allison is genuinely interested, which makes Mel feel interesting and engaged, validating the maxim that to be interesting, be interested
Concerns about manipulation[31:19]
• Allison says some students worry scripted follow-up questions could be manipulative, but argues that even when you know you're doing it, you can genuinely care; it's just a helpful nudge

Dealing with zero-questioners (ZQs)

Definition of ZQs[31:57]
• Allison labels people who ask zero questions in conversation as "ZQs" (zero questioners), often experienced on bad dates
What to do if you give and don't receive questions[32:45]
• She notes you can't control others' behavior; in dating, multiple dates with no questions can be a legitimate reason to stop seeing someone
Allison's personal example of leaving a date[33:26]
• She once left a date after about 20 minutes, told the person it was nice, said good luck, later texted that it was frustrating he didn't ask her anything about herself, and he apologized

Kind interpretations for people who don't ask questions

Possible reasons beyond disinterest[34:50]
• Allison notes some people are so self-focused they simply don't think to ask, while others fear being intrusive or looking incompetent for not already knowing the answer
Misplaced fears that block question-asking[35:37]
• She emphasizes that fears of intrusiveness or incompetence are usually misplaced, but still prevent people from asking the questions that would build connection

Listening as the glue of the framework

Three-step model of listening

Step 1: Hearing and seeing cues[36:51]
• Listening begins with taking in words, tone of voice, and nonverbal behaviors through sight and hearing
Step 2: Thinking about what you heard[38:54]
• The brain elaborates internally on the information, interpreting and processing it
Step 3: Showing you've heard and thought[38:54]
• Conversation uniquely allows you to demonstrate listening back to the speaker, which is how you "get credit" for the effort you put into listening

Nonverbal and verbal signals of listening

Nonverbal cues as Listening 101[39:14]
• Eye contact, nodding, smiling, facing the person, and leaning forward are classic cues; turning your back, as in Mel's example with her husband, undermines perceived listening
Verbal listening as Listening 201[40:12]
• Allison emphasizes that the best listening is often spoken-repeating back, paraphrasing, validating emotions, and summarizing group points (grounding and repairing misunderstandings)
Useful listening phrases[40:49]
• Examples include "what I heard you say is...", "is that right?", and emotional validation phrases like "it makes sense that you feel X about Y"

L: Levity - humor and warmth as antidote to boredom

Why levity matters in conversation

Boredom as a quiet killer of conversation[45:15]
• Allison notes people easily spot angry conflicts, but more often conversations die from boredom and disengagement, when neither person is interested
Levity as sparkle and fizz[45:33]
• She defines levity as fleeting moments of humor or warmth that pull people back in and fix boredom, not constant joking

Self-deprecation, status, and levity

When self-deprecating humor helps[46:02]
• For high-status people, making fun of themselves or sharing struggles humanizes them, signals "I'm like you," and is very powerful for connection
Risks of self-deprecation for low-status individuals[46:40]
• Allison warns that low-status people have a narrower range of acceptable behavior and self-deprecation can lead others to question their competence

Fluid nature of status and topic-dependent expertise

Status shifts across contexts and topics[47:37]
• She explains every group has a status hierarchy, but it changes not just between places but from one topic to the next (e.g., policy vs. maternity leave discussion)
Using questions to handle low-status moments[48:35]
• If you lack expertise, asking clarifying questions like "what do you mean by status?" both helps the group and can display confidence and raise perceived status

Humor as a status-raising tool

Impact of making others laugh even once[49:09]
• Allison cites research that if you make people laugh once in a conversation, they're much more likely to vote for you as the leader, and humor helps both earn and keep status

K: Kindness - respect and responsive listening

Defining kindness in conversational behavior

Curiosity about what kind people actually do[51:33]
• Allison says she has long wondered what kind people think, say, and do moment-to-moment, and believes emerging science of conversation is now clarifying this
Two concrete aspects of kindness[52:06]
• She highlights using respectful language (avoiding harm, exclusion, bullying) and responsive listening (hearing, caring, and showing you're listening) as core behaviors

Applying TALK with colleagues and partners

Using T and A with colleagues[52:55]
• She suggests always asking what topics are valuable to colleagues and asking questions like "what are you excited about lately?" or "what are you struggling with that I can help?"
Kindness with partners requires effort[52:55]
• Allison acknowledges it's a big demand to be consistently kind with someone you live with, but stresses battling self-focus, understanding their needs, and helping meet them (even with simple acts like a hug or coffee)

Fixing entrenched negative communication patterns

Bad equilibria in relationships

Definition of being stuck in a bad equilibrium[56:41]
• Allison describes couples or relationships falling into habitual patterns of defensiveness, lashing out, and accusations instead of curiosity and support
Using apologies and explicit pattern naming[57:12]
• She suggests saying something like "it seems like we've fallen into bad habits" and asking how to shift into a different pattern, emphasizing that both people must buy in
When patterns can't be changed[57:55]
• If both parties don't commit to changing the conversational habits, relationships often end because they're no longer rewarding

Small talk, topic pyramid, and moving to deep talk

Why small talk feels bad but is necessary

Small talk as shallow yet unavoidable[58:15]
• Allison agrees small talk feels shallow and meaningless but points out it's a well-worn ritual and how almost all conversations begin
Small talk as a search space for better topics[59:09]
• She reframes small talk as a warm-up and search phase where people look for ways to move to more meaningful topics

Three-layer topic pyramid

Bottom layer: small talk topics[59:09]
• These include universally safe topics like the weather, weekends, or what's being eaten; not evil, but often unrewarding
Middle layer: tailored talk[59:29]
• Involves more disclosure, personalization, or talking about topics one person is excited about; this is where topic prep and good questions function as launchpads
Top layer: deep talk[1:01:58]
• Deep talk involves highly personal, meaningful conversations; not appropriate in every context but "magical" when it occurs with friends, therapists, or loved ones

Examples of middle-layer launching questions

Question: what are you good at that you don't like doing?[1:01:18]
• Allison uses this with Mel, leading to talk about picking up dog poop and then quickly branching into caretaking and feelings about dogs
Question: what are you bad at that you'd like to get better at?[1:02:47]
• She proposes this as another opener, which with Mel reveals a desire to improve Spanish and invites immediate playful responses in Spanish

Managing group dynamics, dominant talkers, and interruptions

Handling people who dominate conversations

Dominance issues usually arise in groups[1:03:11]
• Allison notes dominating airtime is most problematic in group settings (meetings, parties), where it's harder to interrupt politely than in one-on-one talks
Redirecting attention using questions and body language[1:03:05]
• She suggests explicitly turning to another person (verbally and physically) and inviting them to speak on a specific topic, thereby shifting group focus away from the dominant talker

Eye gaze and inclusion of low-status members

People naturally look more at high-status members[1:04:21]
• This tendency leaves low-status members literally unseen, making them feel invisible and discouraging them from speaking even when they have valuable input
Leader eye gaze as a subtle invitation[1:05:58]
• In experiments, when leaders distributed eye contact more equitably, low-status members spoke up more, without leaders having to call on them directly

Different kinds of interruptions

On-topic vs. off-topic interruptions[1:07:27]
• On-topic interruptions, where people finish each other's sentences and stay with the subject, can signal engagement and are positive; off-topic interruptions that cut off and redirect are rude and devaluing
Responding to rude interruptions[1:07:27]
• Allison recommends, when possible, lightly calling it out with humor (e.g., "I was just going to finish my thought") so the group acknowledges the dynamic

Enlisting allies to counter chronic interrupters

Preparing with a "work bestie"[1:07:14]
• For those uncomfortable confronting interrupters, Allison suggests privately asking a trusted colleague to gently interject in meetings with lines like "I'd love to hear Allison finish"

Responding to belittling comments and disagreements

Nature of belittling comments

Belittling often comes from those closest to us[1:10:29]
• Allison notes little digs often come from loved ones and are usually more about their own insecurity or deeper issues than the surface topic
Belittlement hits core identity[1:10:36]
• These moments, especially in otherwise easy conversations, can cut down into "hot magma" at the core of identity, triggering defensiveness or feeling silenced

Receptiveness language as a tool

Research on receptiveness to opposing views[1:11:41]
• Allison cites work by Hannah Collins, Mike Yeomans, and Julia Minson on language that helps manage heated moments and prevents escalation
Recipe: acknowledgment, affirmation, positive framing[1:13:12]
• She suggests first acknowledging and paraphrasing what you heard, affirming that their feelings make sense, then expressing how their words affect you and why it's not helpful
Example: family comments about being single[1:13:02]
• One could say: "As your daughter I'm grateful you love me and want me to meet someone; at the same time, that comment isn't helpful to me right now," combining affirmation and feedback
Avoiding dogmatic "because/therefore" language[1:13:45]
• Words like "because" and "therefore" can signal excessive certainty and righteousness, making them hard to receive and more likely to escalate conflict
Dividing yourself into multiple parts[1:15:03]
• Allison finds it useful to speak from two internal roles at once-for instance, the loving relative and the feedback-giver-so she can both affirm and express hurt in the same breath

Choosing not to engage on unproductive topics

It's okay not to engage repeatedly on the same issue[1:16:01]
• If someone continues to raise the same contentious or hurtful topics even after feedback, it's acceptable to stop engaging on that issue
Using topic shifts instead of stonewalling[1:16:26]
• Rather than simply saying "agree to disagree," she recommends shifting to a different, mutually rewarding topic (e.g., TV shows) as a practical application of the T in TALK

Managing emotional arousal and taking breaks

High-arousal negative emotions in conversation

Anger and anxiety can derail productive talk[1:18:01]
• Allison refers to work on high-arousal negative emotions and notes that once someone is very upset, it's almost too late to have a constructive exchange

Time-outs and returning to the discussion

Using breaks to return to the "green zone"[1:18:35]
• She says therapists often talk about needing ~20 minutes for physiological calm, and recommends saying "let's take a break and come back" or changing the setting (e.g., go for a walk)

Focusing on being interested rather than "interesting"

Reframing the goal of conversation

It's the wrong question to ask how to always be interesting[1:19:44]
• Allison says aiming to be the most charismatic or funny person is misguided; instead, the key is to be optimally interested in the other person and to find the fun together
Every person is an infinite source of content[1:20:07]
• She points out everyone has rich lived experience, making them "an endless font" of things to discover through questions

Ending conversations and overall takeaways

Ending conversations gracefully

Inherent coordination problem at the end[1:21:05]
• Allison explains that neither person can know exactly when the other wants to stop, so endings almost always feel a bit awkward or off in length
Simple script for departures[1:22:01]
• She recommends accepting the awkwardness and ending with something like "this was great, I loved it, I can't wait for the next one, bye"

Single most important practice: topic prep

Thinking ahead about people you'll see[1:22:46]
• Allison says if listeners do one thing, it should be giving a little forethought to who they'll see each day and what those people would find interesting or productive to talk about

Grace for yourself and others

Conversations are inherently messy[1:23:49]
• She notes that despite a lifetime of talking, even expert communicators are far from perfect; real conversations involve interruptions, half-finished ideas, and confusion
Extending grace when people misstep[1:24:26]
• Her parting advice is to give yourself and others more grace when people say things that make you mad or hurt your feelings, especially when the intent is rooted in love

Mel's closing encouragement

Mel urges listeners to try the techniques[1:25:15]
• She emphasizes that being a better communicator will improve life and tells listeners she loves them, believes in them, and believes in their ability to create a better life

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Preparing conversation topics in advance, even for 30 seconds, dramatically improves the fluency and enjoyment of interactions while reducing anxiety and awkward silences.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What important conversations or recurring interactions this week could benefit from a minute of topic preparation beforehand?
  • • How might your experience of a social event change if you went in with three tailored questions or topics for each key person you expect to see?
  • • What simple system (notes app, calendar reminder, paper list) could you set up today to routinely prep topics for your most important relationships?
2

Asking more and better follow-up questions is one of the fastest ways to overcome egocentrism, understand others' perspectives, and make them feel interesting and valued.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In your last few conversations, how much of the time were you talking versus asking and listening with genuine curiosity?
  • • How could you experiment with one "never-ending follow-up question" conversation this week to see how it changes the dynamic?
  • • What specific phrases or question stems (e.g., "tell me more about...", "what was that like for you?") could you deliberately practice using over the next few days?
3

Active listening isn't just silently paying attention-it requires visibly and verbally showing you heard and understood, through paraphrasing, validation, and clarifying questions.

Reflection Questions:

  • • When someone close to you speaks about something important, how often do you explicitly paraphrase and check whether you understood them correctly?
  • • How might your relationships at work shift if you made a habit of summarizing group discussions out loud and validating others' concerns before proposing solutions?
  • • What is one relationship where you could immediately improve trust by using phrases like "what I'm hearing is..." or "it makes sense you feel X about Y"?
4

Humor and levity, used thoughtfully, are powerful tools for raising status, combating boredom, and making social situations feel safer and more engaging.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In what recurring situations (meetings, family dinners, social gatherings) do you notice boredom creeping in, and how might a small dose of levity help?
  • • How could you experiment with one light, self-aware joke or warm comment at your next group interaction to see how it affects others' responsiveness to you?
  • • Where do you need to be cautious about self-deprecating humor because your status or context might cause others to question your competence?
5

Status in groups is fluid and topic-dependent, and you can positively influence dynamics by directing attention to quieter voices, asking clarifying questions, and sharing the conversational floor.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Thinking about your regular group settings, who tends to get overlooked, and how could you intentionally invite them into the conversation?
  • • How might your leadership presence change if you focused less on having the best ideas and more on stewarding the flow of attention and participation?
  • • What is one upcoming meeting where you could consciously use eye contact and targeted questions to balance who speaks and who is heard?
6

When conversations turn hurtful or tense, using receptive language-acknowledging, affirming feelings, and then calmly expressing your own experience-can prevent escalation and preserve the relationship.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Recall a recent conversation that became heated or hurtful; how might it have unfolded differently if you had first acknowledged the other person's perspective and emotions?
  • • What recurring comment or behavior from someone close to you could you prepare a receptive, two-part response for (affirmation plus honest feedback)?
  • • How can you remind yourself, in the moment, to avoid dogmatic "because/therefore" language and instead speak from both empathy and self-respect?
7

A realistic goal in communication is not perfection but grace-recognizing that conversations are inherently messy and choosing to extend understanding to yourself and others when missteps happen.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where are you currently holding yourself to an unrealistic standard of "perfect" communication, and how is that pressure affecting your willingness to engage?
  • • How might your view of someone who frustrates you change if you assumed they are flawed but fundamentally trying, just like you?
  • • What is one situation this week where you can deliberately practice responding with grace-internally and externally-when a conversation doesn't go as you'd hoped?

Episode Summary - Notes by Sawyer

How to Communicate With Confidence & Ease (From Harvard Business School's #1 Professor)
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