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TED Talks Daily

(#9) Elise's Top Ten: Rethinking infidelity ... a talk for anyone who has ever loved | Esther Perel

with Esther Perel

Published September 20, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

Host Elise Hu introduces a replay of therapist and podcast host Esther Perel's TED talk, "Rethinking Infidelity, a talk for anyone who has ever loved." Perel examines why people cheat, including those in seemingly happy relationships, and how modern expectations of marriage intensify the impact of affairs. She explores the psychological meanings behind infidelity, the dual nature of betrayal and self-discovery, and offers ways couples can understand, heal from, and sometimes grow after an affair.

Topics Covered

Infidelity Relationships Romantic relationships Marriage Jealousy Shame Trauma Therapy Identity Vulnerability

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • Perel argues that infidelity is both a profound betrayal and often an expression of longing, identity, and the desire to feel alive, rather than just a search for sex.
  • Modern romantic ideals load marriage with expectations of being everything to one another, making affairs feel especially traumatic because they threaten a person's sense of self, not just the relationship.
  • Even couples shattered by an affair can sometimes use the crisis as a catalyst for deeper honesty, renewed desire, and the creation of a "second marriage" with the same partner.
  • Perel distinguishes between mining for sordid details after an affair versus asking investigative questions that uncover motives, meanings, and what the relationship still offers.
  • Affairs occur across relationship types, including open relationships, in part because of the enduring lure of the forbidden and the feeling of doing what one is "not supposed" to do.

Podcast Notes

Introduction to Elise's Top 10 playlist and setup of Esther Perel's talk

Elise frames the podcast playlist concept

Description of "Elise's Top 10 TED Talks" playlist[2:28]
• Elise explains this is TED's first ever podcast playlist where they share a curated list of talks from the archive in one feed all at once.
Connection to Lori Gottlieb's talk[2:42]
• Elise says Lori Gottlieb did an excellent job of framing most of life's problems.
• She notes that her next favorite talk dives deeper into one of the needs Lori talked about: the need for freedom or change in relationships.

Introducing Esther Perel and the talk title

Naming the talk and its impact on Elise[2:28]
• Elise introduces therapist and podcast host Esther Perel's 2015 talk titled "Rethinking Infidelity, a talk for anyone who has ever loved."
• She comments that the title "says it all" about the topic.
• Elise shares that the talk reframed how she understands relationships and herself.
Context of connection and relevance[3:09]
• In a world focused on connection, Elise suggests this is a fitting talk to explore infidelity.

Opening questions and basic paradoxes of infidelity

Fundamental questions about cheating

Why do people cheat, including happy people?[3:19]
• Perel asks: Why do we cheat, and why do happy people cheat?
What counts as infidelity?[3:25]
• She asks what exactly we mean by "infidelity" and lists possibilities like a hookup, a love story, paid sex, a chat room, or a massage with happy endings.
Gendered assumptions about cheating motives[3:41]
• Perel notes a common belief that men cheat out of boredom and fear of intimacy, while women cheat out of loneliness and hunger for intimacy.
Is an affair always the end?[3:49]
• She questions whether an affair must always mean the end of a relationship.

Perel's background working with infidelity

Scope of her experience with couples[3:58]
• For the past 10 years, Perel has traveled the globe and worked extensively with hundreds of couples shattered by infidelity.
Impact of a single act of transgression[4:03]
• She describes an affair as one simple act of transgression that can rob a couple of their relationship, happiness, and even identity.
• Despite being extremely common, infidelity is, in her view, poorly understood.
Who the talk is for[4:22]
• Perel says her talk is about a couple and is for anyone who has ever loved.

Historical and cultural context of adultery and monogamy

Adultery and religious taboo

Adultery's persistence across history[4:28]
• Perel notes that adultery has existed since marriage was invented, along with the taboo against it.
Infidelity's "tenacity" vs. marriage[4:36]
• She says infidelity has a tenacity that marriage can only envy.
• She points out that the prohibition against adultery is the only commandment repeated twice in the Bible: once for doing it and once just for thinking about it.
Reconciling universal taboo with universal practice[5:01]
• Perel poses the question of how we reconcile something that is universally forbidden yet universally practiced.

Historical double standard and gender pressures

Men's historical "license" to cheat[5:03]
• Throughout history, Perel says, men practically had a license to cheat with little consequence.
• She notes this was supported by biological and evolutionary theories justifying male roaming.
The double standard and sexual reporting[5:23]
• She notes a long-standing double standard but adds that we "don't know what's really going on under the sheets."
• For men, she says, the pressure is to boast and exaggerate about sex.
• For women, the pressure is to hide, minimize, and deny sexual activity.
• She highlights ongoing danger for women, noting there are still nine countries where women can be killed for straying.

Changing meaning of monogamy and marriage

From one person for life to one at a time[5:55]
• Perel says monogamy used to mean one person for life.
• She argues that today monogamy often means one person at a time.
• She jokes that some people likely say, "I am monogamous in all my relationships."
Shift in when we have sex relative to marriage[6:28]
• Perel contrasts the past, when people married and had sex for the first time, with today, when people marry and stop having sex with others.
Monogamy's original link to property and paternity[6:19]
• She states that historically monogamy had nothing to do with love.
• Men relied on women's fidelity to know whose children they had and who would inherit property, such as cows, when they died.

Definitions and prevalence of infidelity in the modern era

Difficulty of measuring cheating

Variable definitions broaden the category[6:51]
• Everyone wants to know the percentage of people who cheat, and Perel notes she's been asked this repeatedly.
• She states that the definition of infidelity keeps expanding to include sexting, watching porn, and staying secretly active on dating apps.
Wide range of prevalence estimates[7:04]
• Because of the lack of a universally agreed definition of infidelity, estimates of cheating rates vary widely from 26% to 75%.

Our contradictions about lying and affairs

Moral stance vs. personal behavior[7:34]
• Perel observes that we are walking contradictions.
• She cites that 95% of people say it is terribly wrong for a partner to lie about an affair.
• Yet about the same percentage say that if they themselves had an affair, lying is exactly what they would do.

Perel's working definition of an affair and the role of imagination

Three key elements of an affair

Structure, emotionality, and sexual alchemy[7:48]
• Perel presents a definition of an affair that she likes, bringing together three key elements.
• First element: a secretive relationship, which she calls the core structure of an affair.
• Second element: an emotional connection, to one degree or another.
• Third element: a sexual alchemy, with "alchemy" being the key word.
Imagination and erotic frisson[7:55]
• Perel says the erotic frisson can make an imagined kiss as powerful and enchanting as hours of actual lovemaking.
• She quotes Marcel Proust: "It's our imagination that is responsible for love, not the other person."

New technological context and evolving stakes

Ease of cheating vs. difficulty of secrecy[8:43]
• Perel notes that it's never been easier to cheat, but also never more difficult to keep a secret.
Shift from economic to emotional security[8:40]
• She explains that when marriage was an economic enterprise, infidelity threatened economic security.
• Now that marriage is a romantic arrangement, infidelity threatens emotional security.
Paradox of adultery as pure love vs. its current role[8:48]
• Historically, people turned to adultery as a space to seek "pure love."
• Now that people seek love inside marriage, she says, adultery destroys it.

Why infidelity hurts differently today

The modern romantic ideal and its demands

List of needs loaded onto one partner[9:08]
• Perel describes a romantic ideal where we expect one person to fulfill an endless list of needs: greatest lover, best friend, best parent, trusted confidant, emotional companion, and intellectual equal.
• She highlights that we also expect to be all of these things for the other person.
Being "the one" and the blow of infidelity[9:45]
• Perel lists feelings of being chosen, unique, indispensable, irreplaceable-"I'm the one."
• She says infidelity tells us we are not "the one," making it feel like the ultimate betrayal.
From pain to trauma: threat to sense of self[9:51]
• Perel says that while infidelity has always been painful, today it is often traumatic because it threatens our sense of self.

Fernando's story: crisis of identity and trust

Fernando's reaction to discovering an affair[9:55]
• Perel shares that her patient Fernando feels plagued and says he thought he knew his life, who his partner was, who they were as a couple, and who he was.
• After the affair, Fernando says he now questions everything.
Infidelity as violation of trust and identity[10:06]
• Perel labels infidelity as a violation of trust and a crisis of identity.
• Fernando asks whether he can ever trust his partner again and whether he can ever trust anyone again.

Heather's story: Digital-age discovery and "death by a thousand cuts"

Setup of Heather and Nick's situation

Family context when affair is uncovered[10:51]
• Perel introduces Heather, married to Nick with two kids.
• Nick leaves on a business trip while Heather is playing on his iPad with their boys.
Discovery of incriminating messages[11:05]
• Heather sees a message on the screen saying, "Can't wait to see you," and initially thinks it's for her, since they just saw each other.
• Another message appears: "Can't wait to hold you in my arms," and Heather realizes the messages are not for her.

Heather's family history and deeper digging

Parallels with her parents' marriage[11:32]
• Heather tells Perel that her father had affairs too.
• She contrasts her mother's limited evidence (a small receipt and a bit of lipstick on a collar) with her own experience.
Scale and detail of digital evidence[11:10]
• Heather searches further and finds hundreds of messages and photos exchanged, and desires expressed, documenting Nick's two-year affair.
• The vivid details of the affair unfold in front of Heather in real time.
Perel's reflection: "death by a thousand cuts"[11:20]
• Perel says this made her think of affairs in the digital age as a "death by a thousand cuts."

Cultural paradox: entitled to desire yet attached to fidelity

New entitlement to pursue desires

From could-not to should-be-happy[11:54]
• Perel notes another paradox: because of the romantic ideal, we rely on partner fidelity with unique fervor, yet we are more inclined than ever to stray.
• She argues this isn't due to new desires but because we live in an era where we feel entitled to pursue our desires.
• She describes a culture where people believe they "deserve to be happy."
Changing norms around divorce and shame[12:01]
• Perel contrasts the past, when people divorced because they were unhappy, with today, when people divorce because they could be happier.
• Previously, divorce carried the shame; now, she says, choosing to stay when you can leave is the new shame.

Heather's dilemma and social pressure

Fear of judgment for still loving the partner[12:12]
• Heather can't talk to her friends because she's afraid they'll judge her for still loving Nick.
One-sided social advice to leave[13:17]
• Everywhere Heather turns, she receives the same advice: leave him and "throw the dog on the curb."
• Perel notes that if the situation were reversed, Nick would likely face the same pressure.
• She reiterates that staying is now the new shame.

Why do people still have affairs if divorce is possible?

Challenging common assumptions about cheating

Typical blame frameworks[12:39]
• Perel says the typical assumption is that if someone cheats, there's either something wrong in the relationship or something wrong with the individual.
• She points out that millions of people cheat, so they can't all be pathological.
Myth of the perfect inoculating marriage[13:03]
• The logic she lays out: if you have everything you need at home, there's no need to look elsewhere, assuming a perfect marriage can inoculate against wanderlust.
Questions about passion and limits of relationships[13:08]
• Perel asks whether passion has a finite shelf life.
• She also asks if there are things that even a good relationship can never provide.
• She raises the issue: if even happy people cheat, what is it about?

Who cheats and what are they seeking?

Profile of many people who have affairs

Not necessarily chronic philanderers[13:29]
• Perel says the vast majority of people she works with are not chronic philanderers.
• They are often deeply monogamous in their beliefs-at least for their partner.
Conflict between values and behavior[13:40]
• These individuals often experience a conflict between their values and their actions.
• Many have been faithful for decades before one day crossing a line they never thought they would, risking everything.
The "glimmer" they're risking everything for[13:43]
• Perel poses the question of what they risk so much for, describing it as a glimmer of something.

Affairs as both betrayal and expression of longing

Dual nature of affairs[13:59]
• Perel states that affairs are an act of betrayal, and also an expression of longing and loss.
Types of yearnings often found in affairs[14:08]
• At the heart of an affair, she often finds a longing for emotional connection, novelty, freedom, autonomy, and sexual intensity.
• She mentions a wish to recapture lost parts of ourselves or to bring back vitality in the face of loss and tragedy.

Priya's story: reclaiming an unlived adolescence

Priya's life as a "good" daughter, wife, and mother

Her love for her husband and sense of duty[14:36]
• Perel presents Priya, who is blissfully married, loves her husband, and would never want to hurt him.
• Priya describes always doing what was expected of her: being a good girl, good wife, good mother, and taking care of her immigrant parents.

The arborist affair and its meaning

Contrasting lover figure[15:31]
• Priya falls for the arborist who removed a tree from her yard after Hurricane Sandy.
• With his truck and tattoos, the arborist is described as quite the opposite of her.
Affair as belated adolescence[15:56]
• At 47, Priya's affair is, in Perel's interpretation, about the adolescence she never had.
Seeking another self rather than just another partner[15:31]
• Perel says that when people seek the gaze of another, they are not always turning away from their partner but from the person they themselves have become.
• She suggests that often people are not so much looking for another person as looking for another self.

Affairs, feeling alive, and mortality

Affairs as a search for aliveness

Common language used by people who cheat[16:17]
• Perel notes that around the world, people who have affairs frequently use the same word: they feel "alive."
Recent losses and confronting mortality[15:46]
• She says they often tell stories of recent losses, such as a parent who died, a friend who went too soon, or bad news at the doctor.
• Perel remarks that death and mortality often live in the shadow of an affair.

Existential questions propelling affairs

Questions about life satisfaction and future[16:15]
• Affairs raise questions like: "Is this it? Is there more?"
• People wonder if they will go on another 25 years like this, and whether they will ever feel "that thing" again.
Affair as attempt to fend off deadness[17:44]
• Perel has been led to think that such questions propel people to cross the line into an affair.
• She suggests some affairs are attempts to beat back deadness and function as an antidote to death.

Desire, attention, and the structure of affairs

Affairs about more than sex

Desire for attention and specialness[17:54]
• Contrary to popular belief, Perel argues that affairs are less about sex and more about desire.
• She lists desires for attention, to feel special, and to feel important.

The desire machine of the impossible lover

Incompleteness and ambiguity fueling longing[18:00]
• Perel says the very structure of an affair-the fact you can never fully have your lover-keeps you wanting.
• She describes this structure as a "desire machine" because incompleteness and ambiguity keep people wanting what they cannot have.

Affairs in open relationships and the power of the forbidden

Infidelity vs. monogamy conversations

Affairs can occur even with agreed openness[18:30]
• Perel notes that some may think affairs don't happen in open relationships, but they do.
• She clarifies that conversations about monogamy are not the same as conversations about infidelity.

The lure of forbidden behavior

Feeling like you're truly doing what you want[18:34]
• She observes that even with the freedom to have other sexual partners, people are still lured by the power of the forbidden.
• Perel suggests that doing what one is not supposed to do can make people feel like they are truly doing what they want.

Advice to bring affair energy into the relationship

Boldness and imagination misdirected outward[19:05]
• Perel says she has told many patients that if they brought one-tenth of the boldness, imagination, and verve they give to their affairs into their relationships, they might never need therapy with her.

Healing after an affair: from survival to generative renewal

Possibility and limits of healing

Depth of desire and betrayal[19:18]
• Perel acknowledges that desire runs deep and betrayal runs deep, but says it can be healed.
Affairs as death knell vs. jolt[20:00]
• She notes that some affairs are death knells for relationships that were already dying on the vine.
• Other affairs jolt couples into new possibilities.

Staying together and differing outcomes

Most couples remain together after an affair[19:44]
• Perel says the majority of couples who experience affairs stay together.
Surviving vs. transforming the relationship[20:14]
• Some couples will merely survive the affair, while others turn the crisis into an opportunity.
• She calls those who transform it "generative," implying growth from the experience.

Deceived partner's chance to claim more

Rebalancing power in the relationship[20:14]
• Perel notes that deceived partners may say, "You think I didn't want more, but I'm not the one who did it."
• After an affair is exposed, they too get to claim more and no longer must uphold a status quo that may not have been working for them.

New conversations and rekindled desire

Depths of conversation after exposure[20:18]
• Perel observes that many couples, in the aftermath of an affair, have conversations with honesty and openness they haven't had in decades.
Fear of loss as a spark for desire[20:28]
• Partners who were sexually indifferent may suddenly become lustfully voracious, to their own surprise.
• She suggests that the fear of loss can rekindle desire and open the way to a new kind of truth.

Concrete guidance for couples after an affair

Acknowledgment and remorse by the unfaithful partner

Role of acknowledging wrongdoing[20:49]
• Drawing from trauma research, Perel states that healing begins when the perpetrator acknowledges their wrongdoing.
Ending the affair and expressing guilt[21:14]
• For the partner who had the affair (e.g., Nick), one step is to end the affair.
• Another key step is expressing guilt and remorse for hurting the spouse.
Distinguishing guilt for hurt vs. guilt for the experience[21:18]
• Perel has noticed that many who have affairs feel terribly guilty about hurting their partner but do not feel guilty about the experience of the affair itself.
• She emphasizes that this distinction is important.

Holding vigil for the relationship and restoring trust

Becoming the protector of boundaries[21:31]
• Perel says Nick needs to hold vigil for the relationship and become the protector of its boundaries for a while.
Responsibility to bring up the affair[21:44]
• She says it is his responsibility to bring up the affair himself.
• If he thinks about it and raises it, he can relieve Heather from the obsession and from always having to ensure the affair is not forgotten.
• This proactive stance helps begin to restore trust.

Tasks for the deceived partner

Rebuilding self-worth and identity[22:06]
• For deceived partners like Heather, Perel says it's essential to do things that bring back a sense of self-worth.
• She recommends surrounding oneself with love, friends, and activities that restore joy, meaning, and identity.
Avoiding destructive "sordid detail" questions[22:28]
• Perel advises against mining for sordid details: Where were you? Where did you do it? How often? Is she better than me in bed?
• She says these questions only inflict more pain and keep the deceived partner awake at night.

Investigative questions that explore meaning

Shifting the focus of inquiry[22:49]
• Instead of sordid details, she suggests asking investigative questions that mine motives and meaning.
Examples of investigative questions[22:55]
• Sample questions include: What did this affair mean for you? What were you able to express or experience there that you could no longer do with me?
• Other questions: What was it like for you when you came home? What is it about us that you value? Are you pleased this is over?

Affairs redefine relationships and the complexity of betrayal

Determining the legacy of an affair

Inevitability and staying power of affairs[23:24]
• Perel asserts that affairs are here to stay and are not going away.
Couples' agency over meaning-making[23:35]
• She says every affair will redefine a relationship, and each couple will determine what the affair's legacy will be.

Beyond black-and-white thinking

Rejection of simple moral binaries[23:40]
• Perel states that dilemmas of love and desire do not yield simple answers of black and white, good and bad, or victim and perpetrator.

Many forms of betrayal within relationships

Other ways partners can hurt each other[23:31]
• She emphasizes that betrayal comes in many forms: contempt, neglect, indifference, and violence.
• Sexual betrayal is only one way to hurt a partner.
Victim of affair vs. victim of marriage[24:04]
• Perel says the victim of an affair is not always the victim of the marriage.

Perel's stance on affairs and dual perspective

Addressing assumptions about her viewpoint

Stereotypes about French attitudes[24:23]
• Perel anticipates listeners thinking she must be pro-affair because she has a French accent.
• She clarifies that she is not French and not pro-affair.

Whether she would ever recommend an affair

Comparing affairs to serious illness[24:39]
• Because she believes good can come from an affair, she says people often ask her if she would ever recommend one.
• Perel responds that she would no more recommend having an affair than she would recommend getting cancer.
• She notes that people who have been ill often talk about illness yielding a new perspective.

For or against? Her "yes" and dual lens

Refusing binary positions[24:51]
• Perel says the main question she's been asked at the conference is whether she is for or against infidelity.
• Her answer is "yes," indicating she sees both sides.
Two-sided interpretation of affairs[24:51]
• She explains that she looks at affairs from a dual perspective: hurt and betrayal on one side, growth and self-discovery on the other.
• She distinguishes what the affair did to the betrayed partner from what it meant for the person who strayed.

Invitation to create a "second marriage" with the same partner

Multiple relationships over a lifetime

Two or three major relationships or marriages[23:56]
• Perel tells couples that today in the West, most people will have two or three relationships or marriages.
• She notes that some will have these multiple relationships with the same person.

Reframing the affair as the end of the first marriage

Question posed to couples in therapy[24:51]
• Perel often tells couples that their first marriage is over.
• She invites them to consider whether they would like to create a second one together.

Outro: Elise's closing and playlist framing

Identifying the talk and its place in the playlist

Credit to Esther Perel and TED24[24:12]
• Elise states that the talk was by Esther Perel at TED24.
Position in Elise's Top 10 series[25:02]
• She explains this is the ninth talk from the TED archives being reposted as part of the first podcast playlist of her top 10 TED Talks.

Preview of the next segment and production credits

Teasing upcoming contribution by Suleika Juwad[24:37]
• Elise says that to wrap up, they will hear from one of TED's favorites, Suleika Juwad.
Note about TED's curation guidelines[24:43]
• She mentions that listeners curious about TED's curation can find more at TED.com slash curation guidelines.
TED Talks Daily production team[24:44]
• Elise notes that TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective.
• She credits the production and editing team: Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Green, Lucy Little, and Tansika Sangmarnivong.
• She adds that the episode was mixed by Lucy Little, with additional support from Emma Taubner and Daniela Balarezo.
Host sign-off[24:51]
• Elise identifies herself by name and thanks listeners for listening.

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Affairs often signal a search for another self, not just another partner; they can reflect longings for autonomy, aliveness, or unlived parts of one's identity rather than simply a deficit in the current relationship.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What parts of yourself do you feel have been sidelined or suppressed in your current life or relationships?
  • • How could you begin to explore those neglected aspects of your identity in ways that are honest and aligned with your values?
  • • What is one concrete change you could make this month to feel more like your fuller self without betraying someone's trust?
2

The way you inquire after a betrayal-focusing on meaning and motives rather than sordid details-can either deepen trauma or open a path toward understanding and possible repair.

Reflection Questions:

  • • When you feel hurt or betrayed, do your questions tend to seek punishment and pain, or understanding and context?
  • • How might shifting from "what exactly happened" to "what did this mean for you" change a difficult conversation you're facing now?
  • • What is one investigative, meaning-focused question you could ask in a strained relationship this week?
3

Romantic relationships are burdened when one partner is expected to meet nearly all emotional, sexual, intellectual, and companionship needs; consciously diversifying how and where you meet needs can reduce pressure and resentment.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which expectations do you currently place on your partner (or future partner) that might be unrealistic or overly comprehensive?
  • • How could friendships, family, creative work, or community help meet some needs you've been loading onto one person?
  • • What is one expectation you could renegotiate or redistribute in your relationship to make it more sustainable?
4

After a major rupture like an affair, couples who proactively engage the crisis can sometimes create a "second marriage"-a new, more honest relationship with the same person-rather than merely returning to the old status quo.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In a past or current relationship rupture, did you aim to restore the old normal, or to deliberately create something different and better?
  • • How might viewing a current conflict as the end of "version one" of a relationship help you design a healthier "version two"?
  • • What specific new agreements or conversations would be necessary to mark a clear before-and-after in an important relationship in your life?
5

Trust rebuilding requires the offender to take active responsibility-ending the transgression, acknowledging harm, and consistently protecting boundaries-rather than leaving all emotional labor to the hurt partner.

Reflection Questions:

  • • When you have hurt someone, do you tend to minimize, go silent, or step up to take responsibility and initiate repair?
  • • How could you more proactively "hold vigil" for a relationship you've damaged, instead of waiting for the other person to bring it up?
  • • What is one relationship where you might need to acknowledge harm more clearly and take a concrete step to safeguard trust going forward?

Episode Summary - Notes by Devon

(#9) Elise's Top Ten: Rethinking infidelity ... a talk for anyone who has ever loved | Esther Perel
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