Get Your Weekly Digest

Receive the best podcast summaries and insights delivered to your inbox every week.

We respect your privacy. Unsubscribe anytime.

Radiolab

Creation Story

with Alaa Alshamahi

Published October 10, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

Host Latif Nasser interviews paleoanthropologist and evolutionary biologist Alaa Alshamahi about her journey from an ultra-conservative, creationist Muslim upbringing and teenage missionary work to becoming an evolutionary scientist. She describes studying evolution at University College London as a "double agent" intent on disproving Darwin, the specific genetic evidence that shattered her creationist worldview, and the personal cost of leaving her religious community. Alaa then connects her own experience of crossing worlds to the story of human evolution, including interbreeding with Neanderthals and Denisovans, and explains how her crisis of faith now shapes a more empathetic approach to people who reject scientific findings.

Topics Covered

Origins of life Religion and spirituality Personal narrative Identity Trauma Perspective shift Personal Development Science communication Relationships

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • Alaa Alshamahi grew up in an ultra-conservative Yemeni Muslim community in Birmingham, England, became a teenage missionary, and initially saw evolution as a threat to her faith.
  • She deliberately studied evolution and genetics at University College London intending to disprove Darwin from the inside, effectively acting as a self-described "double agent."
  • Specific scientific evidence, particularly stratigraphy and retrotransposons, convinced her that evolution is real and that humans share common ancestry with other species.
  • Accepting evolution triggered a profound personal and social crisis, forcing her to leave much of her religious world and adapt, often painfully, to a secular environment.
  • Her own "crossover" experience informs how she thinks about ancient human interbreeding with Neanderthals and Denisovans and fuels her empathy for people whose belief systems collide with scientific evidence.

Podcast Notes

Introduction and Alaa Alshamahi's work on human origins

Name pronunciation and Yemeni language connection

Latif asks how to pronounce his name in a Yemeni way and invites Alaa to say it[1:12]
• Alaa explains that "Latif" is heavily used by Yemenis as a word, associated with something being nice or asking how the day is going
• She reacts warmly to hearing her name pronounced the Yemeni way and then models how to say her own name, noting people often overdo the final syllable
Alaa jokes about being called "Alaa" as in "great" and finding that too much[1:43]
• She says people kept calling her "Alaa" and she would respond, "I know I'm great, but I think that's too far, guys," highlighting her playful tone

Host introduces Alaa and her adventurous scientific career

Latif introduces himself and the show, then presents Alaa as a paleoanthropologist and evolutionary biologist[2:04]
• He frames her as "the modern day Indiana Jones" because she travels extensively to collect fossils
Description of the extreme environments Alaa works in[2:01]
• Latif notes that her fieldwork sometimes takes her into active war zones or through pirate-infested waters
• All this travel and risk is in service of piecing together the story of how humans came to be

The surreal origin world of our species

Alaa characterizes "our story" as epic[2:30]
• She emphasizes that the human origin story is not just scientific but also sweeping and dramatic in scale
Overview of the "Lord of the Rings"-like world of ancient humans[2:40]
• Alaa says we lived in a world akin to "Lord of the Rings" with Neanderthals and many other human species
• She highlights Homo floresiensis, describing them as hobbit-like humans about three and a half feet tall
• On the Indonesian island of Flores, these tiny humans lived alongside giant rats and elephants the size of cows
• She paints a vivid picture: humans the size of penguins hunting elephants the size of cows
Other contemporaneous human relatives[3:09]
• Alaa adds Denisovans ("the Neanderthals of Asia"), Homo naledi, and Homo luzonensis to the cast of ancient humans
• She notes this was the world our species was born into: many small human-ish tribes coexisting and competing
Our lineage often lost before ultimately dominating[3:30]
• Alaa says our little tribe was competing with other human-ish tribes and was "constantly not succeeding" at first
• She emphasizes that humans eventually succeeded "in the biggest way possible," but that outcome was extremely unlikely

Framing Alaa's personal origin story

Latif notes that Alaa's show focuses on the amazing story of why humans, and not other groups, prevailed[3:54]
• He points out that what he wants to explore in this episode is a different unlikely story: how Alaa herself became the person telling us this science
Alaa acknowledges difficulty talking about her story[4:05]
• She says she hasn't known how to talk about it until quite recently, and a friend reminded her she once said she might go to her grave with it
• Latif asks why the topic is so tender, and Alaa responds by probing his own religious background

Religious upbringing and missionary life

Latif's and Alaa's religious backgrounds

Latif shares his devout past and later disillusionment[4:36]
• Latif says he came from a religious background, was very devout, and then in high school and college realized "this isn't what I thought it was"
Alaa's reluctance to weaponize her story[5:12]
• She expresses fear that her story could be used as "a stick to beat" religious people, especially those in religious communities
• Latif agrees he doesn't want that either and believes hearing her own nuanced words will likely have the opposite effect

Ultra-conservative Birmingham community and anti-evolution environment

Description of her tight-knit, overprotective community[5:28]
• Alaa says the community was incredibly tight, protective, and "absolutely overprotective," particularly of women
• She mentions she didn't wear trousers or makeup and calls it an ultra-conservative community
Birmingham context and pan-Arab community[5:50]
• Alaa grew up in Birmingham, England, with Yemeni parents in a largely pan-Arab community
• She notes that regardless of denomination or sect, people in her community were "pretty much anti-evolution"
Her early attempt to integrate evolution and God[6:07]
• Alaa recalls that as she grew up, she adopted a view that evolution was true but guided by Allah as an invisible hand
• She contrasts this with Latif, whose family made no space for evolution and whose missionary milieu also rejected it completely

Literal creationist beliefs and comparison with Christian story

Alaa's personal creation story belief[6:39]
• She says she believed God created the world in a week, including Adam and Eve
• Latif notes he knows the Christian creationist story better than the Muslim one, and Alaa affirms they are very similar
Small difference between Christian and Muslim creation narratives[6:58]
• Alaa jokes that Christians give God a day off, whereas Muslims emphasize that God doesn't need a day off

Becoming a teenage missionary and her all-or-nothing personality

Starting missionary work at age 13[7:18]
• Alaa became a missionary at 13 and traveled around the UK in that role
• She mainly spoke to lapsed Muslims but also to the wider public about Islam
Missionary work in the post-2000 climate[7:38]
• Latif points out that talking to the lay public about Islam after 2000 would have been harder, given terrorism and public suspicion
• Alaa explains they felt misrepresented by terrorists and also under attack as communities, which fed into their missionary zeal
Her "no chill" temperament compared to siblings[8:14]
• Alaa describes herself as an "all or nothing" person who didn't know how to do things halfway, unlike her more relaxed siblings
• She says siblings now tease her that she still has no chill, just having switched from one extreme to another
• Latif relates to being a straight-edge religious teen surrounded by more rule-bending friends, and Alaa says such people would mostly have been "projects" to her then

Family pressure for higher education and decision to study evolution

High academic expectations in her family[9:32]
• In her family, having a master's degree was considered roughly equivalent to a high school education in terms of expectation
• Relatives studied a range of subjects, including history and theology-related legal fields, and her father encouraged his children to go into the sciences
Her unique plan: study evolution to destroy it[9:58]
• Alaa says she decided to study evolution explicitly because she wanted to "destroy Darwin's theory"
• She frames her approach as tackling underlying assumptions and then trying to re-interpret and persuade others toward her theological view
• As a missionary, she saw one of the main reasons people rejected God as their belief in evolution, so addressing evolution felt central to her purpose

University life, double agency, and intellectual confrontation with evolution

Applying to University College London and entering the "godless" Darwin building

How she presented herself in university applications[10:37]
• When asked why she wanted to study evolution and genetics, she said she loved genetics and evolution classes, omitting her true motive to undermine the theory
• She acknowledges this as at least a lie of omission about her real goal of destroying evolutionary theory
Her double-agent status within the department[11:57]
• Her fellow missionaries knew about her plan, but she never told non-missionary classmates, which Latif likens to being a double agent
• She laughs at being cast as a double agent, describing her 18-year-old self as a dork but "a woman on a mission"
Arriving at UCL's "godless" campus[12:18]
• Alaa enrolls at University College London, known as "the godless place on Gower Street" for admitting students beyond the Church of England
• Her department is in the Darwin building, named because Charles Darwin lived there
Her conservative dress and social isolation in the department[12:35]
• She attended classes in full conservative Muslim garb, not just a headscarf but a full jilbab (cloak)
• She notes there were a few hijab-wearing girls, but they were in medical genetics; she was alone in her covert agenda within evolution courses
Failed attempt to recruit an ally in class[12:56]
• She spots another woman vaguely connected to her world and excitedly shares her alternative interpretation of evolutionary data
• The other student panics and says she is only taking the mandatory evolution course to pass, not to question it, effectively building a mental firewall

Arranged marriage during her first semester

How the marriage was arranged and her limited contact[13:49]
• During her first semester at university, her imam suggested she marry another student of his, and she agreed
• She had three chaperoned meetings with him before deciding, then they "basically never talked" even after getting engaged and married
Her father's role and timing[14:06]
• They needed her father's agreement, which took time because he didn't want her to marry before finishing her first degree
• As that process unfolded, she continued traveling for missionary work while also digging into evolutionary theory as a student

Trying to dismantle Darwin as a massive puzzle

Seeing evolutionary theory as a puzzle to reassemble[14:41]
• Alaa describes her effort as unpacking a massive puzzle everyone else had already solved over 150 years, trying to rearrange pieces into a different pattern
• She notes that sometimes rethinking assumptions leads to Nobel Prizes, but realizes in hindsight she "picked the wrong puzzle" to try to overturn
Early scientific challenge: speciation in fruit flies[15:48]
• One of her original objections was how one species becomes another; she found the leap between species hard to imagine
• In class she learns about Drosophila fruit fly experiments where populations are separated in the lab and begin to undergo speciation within observable time frames
• Seeing speciation unfold in the lab unsettled her because it directly contradicted her belief that evolution "did not happen"
• Her only comfort was that these experiments were artificial lab conditions, so she told herself this might not happen in nature
Stratigraphy and the fossil record as further evidence[15:22]
• She cites stratigraphy - ordered layers of earth with sequences of animals - showing a broadly chronological pattern
• Looking deeper in geological layers, one tends to see simpler organisms, then increasingly complex ones, forming a consistent pattern of evolution
• She bluntly calls this pattern a "motherfucker" because it doesn't go from complex to simple and is very hard to explain without evolution

Clinging to Adam and Eve as the last theological holdout

Making humans the exception in her worldview[18:03]
• As evidence mounted, she tells herself she can accept evolution for all species except humans, keeping Adam and Eve as a theological non-negotiable
• She describes this as "a lot of ground" to cede, allowing evolution for "all the other billions" of species but not us
The retrotransposon evidence that broke her resistance[18:19]
• She encounters retrotransposons, bits of DNA (such as viral insertions) that become part of our genome and are passed down through generations
• Latif explains retrotransposons as little historical records of ancient infections embedded in our DNA
• Alaa learns that mutation patterns in these retrotransposons align on a family tree with what evolutionary theory predicts when comparing humans and chimps
• Hundreds of retrotransposons sit in almost identical positions in human and chimp genomes, and their mutations fit descent with modification over long timescales
• She concludes there is effectively no other interpretation; God would have had to "copy-paste" nonfunctional DNA into both genomes in the same pattern
• Creationist arguments that similar DNA simply reflects similar body plans fail here because these retrotransposons are nonfunctional sequences
Emotional collapse as her worldview falls apart[19:21]
• Faced with the retrotransposon data, she makes a guttural noise she describes as the sound you make when your whole life is about to fall apart
• She spends time staring out the window thinking "Oh my God, what is this, what am I going to do?" realizing what accepting evolution implies
• Her marriage at that time was already struggling for multiple reasons, including that it was arranged and they didn't know each other, and this faith crisis added strain
The shower moment of admitting belief in evolution[20:16]
• In the shower, feeling physically exposed yet safe, she talks to herself and decides she must find the strength to be honest that she believes in evolution
• Upon admitting this to herself, she collapses to the floor and cries hysterically, describing it as being "in hell"
• She says the anguish came from knowing this realization meant she would likely have to leave her world and that it would create a massive wedge with her family and community

Leaving faith and adjusting to a secular world

Fear of losing family and community ties

Anticipating the wedge with her family[25:11]
• Alaa says it had never happened before in her family, but she knew believing in evolution would likely drive a huge wedge between her and her relatives
• In her world, saying you believe in evolution was an extreme stance that essentially placed you outside the community norms
Siblings' decision to stay connected[25:49]
• She notes that in similar cases in their wider community, many girls were cut off, but her siblings "came through" for her
• Her siblings decided to embrace and remain close to her regardless of her beliefs, which still makes her emotional when she recalls it
Keeping her shift secret from the broader community[26:09]
• She chose not to tell friends or community members; instead she simply disappeared and "ghosted" people rather than confront them
• Because she knew the missionary training manual of how to "collect" someone who wavers, she lacked the energy to be on the receiving end of that effort
• She also didn't want others to follow her path, viewing the process as so awful she preferred they stay where they were and not learn evolution

Disorientation in a rule-free secular environment

Losing the comfort of prescribed rules[27:05]
• Alaa describes having no idea how to exist in a secular world where not every action has a religious rule attached
• She notes that while outsiders might imagine this as freeing, for someone raised with rules about everything (which foot to enter a bathroom with, which hand to use for tasks), it was terrifying
First experiences unveiling and interacting with men[27:07]
• She had never made eye contact with men before; after removing her headscarf she went to a gas station expecting a dramatic reaction
• Contrary to everything she had been told about her hair being a dangerous "fitna" (corrupting force), she found that nobody cared or reacted at all
• She jokes that no men fainted or fell over from her sheer beauty, highlighting the gap between religious warnings and mundane reality
Learning to "fit in" through anthropologist-like observation[28:00]
• She frames her adjustment as needing to learn how to fit in, essentially treating central London as her "exotic tribe" to study
• She carefully observed people's behavior to figure out norms, a mindset that later led her to write a book about the handshake
• Her obsession with micro-behaviors like handshakes came from intensely reading every interaction because her culture had prohibited handshakes with men

Complex feelings about freedom and loss of community

Rejecting a simplistic narrative of liberation[28:37]
• A secular friend once told her she must feel relieved to be free, but she responded that he didn't understand the trauma she had just undergone
• Only years later can she say she's glad not to be constrained by dogma she hasn't chosen, but she insists the secular world is not simply a perfect alternative
Yearning for religious-style community warmth[29:28]
• She tells her mostly secular current friends that she will never again be in a community as warm and engulfing as her former religious one
• She gives examples: if someone's hot water went off, everyone offered their place; if someone was in hospital, people fought visiting-hour limits because the patient "needs us all around the clock"
• Latif, now raising kids outside the mosque context he grew up in, says he yearns for that kind of community
Struggle with identity after leaving[30:05]
• Alaa describes not knowing who she was anymore, with people who would normally know and love her being gone or new
• She emphasizes that she did not want this outcome at the time; it wasn't a sought-after liberation but a painful, necessary shift

Human evolutionary story and empathy for belief systems

Connecting her personal upheaval to our species' hybrid origins

Fascination with human origin story after her crisis[30:45]
• In the midst of personal turmoil, she continues school and becomes obsessed with our origin story, especially the time when many human-like groups coexisted
• She experiences strong feelings when she looks at the science of our story, likely shaped by what she has gone through personally
Evidence of interbreeding with Neanderthals[31:13]
• She notes that everyone outside sub-Saharan Africa, and some within it, has Neanderthal DNA, implying that one of our ancestors had sex with a Neanderthal
• She reframes the usual presentation ("there was intercourse") to focus on the existence of an actual ancestor who was half Neanderthal, half Homo sapiens
• Alaa, as a British Arab with mixed heritage, imagines the confusion of being not just mixed-heritage or mixed-race but mixed-species
• She wonders about the feelings of the mother carrying such a child and whether she hoped the baby would look more Homo sapiens than Neanderthal to avoid ostracism

Evolutionary advantages from ancient hybridization

Immunity advantages from Neanderthals[31:59]
• Alaa explains that when Homo sapiens entered Neanderthal territory in Europe and northern Asia, we lacked immunity to local diseases
• Interbreeding effectively gave us a "cheat" by lending us immunity genes that would otherwise have taken tens or hundreds of thousands of years to evolve
Denisovan DNA and Tibetan high-altitude adaptation[33:25]
• She describes Tibetans, who live at very high altitude, having a genetic mechanism for coping with low oxygen that differs from other high-altitude populations
• The mutation enabling this Tibetan adaptation was inherited from Denisovans, another archaic human group
• Latif likens this to drinking Denisovan "superpowers," and Alaa agrees with that analogy

Parallels between genetic mixing and her own life as a "crossover" person

Seeing value in being a crossover or hybrid[34:10]
• Latif points out that hybrid individuals gained superpowers from both worlds, and suggests Alaa herself is a kind of crossover person between religious and secular worlds
• Alaa responds that she was so traumatized and still can quickly get upset about it, emphasizing the emotional cost of her crossover
How her experience shapes empathy toward science denial[34:02]
• She says going through this makes her much more patient with people who deny or don't trust the science
• She recognizes that when she tries to persuade someone of a scientific point, she is often challenging not a single belief but an entire worldview
• Because she has personally undergone a worldview collapse, she approaches such conversations with empathy, even if she occasionally becomes irritated
Prioritizing human connection over debate[34:18]
• She increasingly has less interest in debating points and more interest in bonding with people as humans, sharing who she is and seeing their humanity
• Her method is "gently does it," accepting that some people may never accept her version of events, and she considers that an acceptable outcome

Outro and credits

Plug for Alaa's television series on human evolution

Latif recommends Alaa's show "Human"[36:19]
• He reiterates that her series is called "Human," airing on PBS and the BBC, and praises how well it showcases the full menagerie of proto-humans

Radiolab production credits

Introduction to the credits reader[37:05]
• A listener named Monica from Mexico City reads the staff credits for the episode
Core creative team and staff listing[37:21]
• She notes that Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad and is edited by Soren Wheeler, with co-hosts Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser
• The credits list the director of sound design and a roster of staff members, producers, and fact-checkers who contributed to the show

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Challenging a deeply held worldview is not an abstract intellectual exercise; it can feel like dismantling your entire identity and social universe, so it must be approached with emotional awareness and patience.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What beliefs of yours are so intertwined with your identity or community that questioning them feels personally risky?
  • • How could you create emotional and social support structures before you seriously interrogate a core belief?
  • • Who in your life might be wrestling with a worldview shift right now, and what specific act of patience or listening could you offer them this week?
2

When a belief system is threatened by new evidence, the most productive response is not to double down blindly but to examine the strongest counterarguments and data, even if they come from sources you distrust.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which of your current convictions have you actually stress-tested against the best opposing evidence or arguments?
  • • How might your perspective change if you deliberately sought out one rigorous source that challenges a belief you hold strongly?
  • • What concrete step could you take this month to expose yourself to high-quality information from outside your usual intellectual or cultural bubble?
3

Losing a tight-knit community can be as painful as changing beliefs, so building new forms of connection and belonging is essential when you move between worlds.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your life have you left a community, and what specific forms of support or warmth did you lose in that transition?
  • • How could you intentionally recreate one of those positive community behaviors (like mutual aid or regular check-ins) in your current context?
  • • Who could you reach out to this week to start or strengthen a small circle of mutual support that aligns with your present values?
4

Experiences of crossing cultural or ideological boundaries can become a "superpower" if you use them to cultivate empathy and to translate between worlds instead of staying stuck in resentment.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In what ways have you already acted as a bridge between different cultures, communities, or viewpoints in your own life?
  • • How might reframing a painful transition you went through as a source of unique perspective change how you relate to others now?
  • • What current conflict or misunderstanding around you could benefit from your ability to understand more than one side, and how might you gently apply that skill?
5

When trying to change someone's mind on contentious topics like science and religion, building trust and human connection is often more effective than direct argument or confrontation.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Think of a person whose views you strongly disagree with: what do you actually know about their personal story and what those beliefs mean to them?
  • • How could you shift one recurring debate in your life from point-scoring toward deeper curiosity about the other person's experience?
  • • What is one small relational investment (a coffee, a call, a genuine question) you could make this week that might lay the groundwork for more open conversations later?

Episode Summary - Notes by Devon

Creation Story
0:00 0:00