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On Purpose with Jay Shetty

MALALA: The Story The World Hasn't Heard Until Now

Published October 13, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

Jay Shetty interviews Malala about her journey from a mischievous schoolgirl in Pakistan to a globally recognized girls' education activist after surviving a Taliban assassination attempt at age 15. She describes the loss of her old life, the pressure of being turned into a global symbol, her struggles with loneliness, PTSD, and therapy, and the long process of reclaiming her own identity, humor, and desires. Malala also explains her ongoing work through Malala Fund, the situation of girls in places like Afghanistan, and how she navigated love, self-image, and marriage while staying committed to girls' education.

Topics Covered

Trauma Mental health Therapy Feminism Education system Conflict zones War and empire Personal narrative Relationships Marriage Resilience

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • Malala describes how, after being shot by the Taliban at 15, she awoke in a UK hospital to discover that the world had already defined her as a heroic activist before she could process what had happened.
  • She explains that her activism began as a child simply wanting to stay in school when the Taliban banned girls' education, not as a role she consciously chose.
  • The conversation details her long-delayed confrontation with PTSD and anxiety, triggered years later by a bong incident in college, which finally led her to therapy.
  • Malala shares how lonely it was to be seen only as an activist rather than as a teenager, and how friendships and one close college friend helped her feel normal and supported.
  • She speaks candidly about insecurity after facial nerve damage from the attack, her belief that no one would love her, and how her relationship with her husband helped her learn to accept love and love herself.
  • Malala emphasizes her father's role as a feminist parent who refused to "clip her wings" and contrasts that with families who stopped other girls from speaking out.
  • She outlines how Malala Fund focuses on supporting local education activists, especially young women and girls, to change laws and provide schooling in countries like Nigeria, Pakistan, and Afghanistan.
  • Malala argues that what is happening to women and girls in Afghanistan should be recognized as gender apartheid and that the international system should treat bans on girls' education as a crime.
  • She reflects on a fluid sense of belonging-feeling at home with family, friends, and her husband rather than in a single place-and on the emotional significance of opening a high school for girls in her parents' village.
  • Throughout, she stresses that real change is collective and long-term, not the result of a single speech or symbolic figure.

Podcast Notes

Opening and framing Malala's story

Jay introduces Malala and the new book

Jay says he has wanted Malala on the show for years but is glad it happens now, after her new book, because it feels like a reintroduction to who she really is and who she is becoming.[3:09]
Malala says writing the book felt like sharing her journal so others who feel lost might find a way through their own difficult times.[3:27]

Being defined by the world before she could define herself

Jay quotes Malala's line, "I'll never know who I was supposed to be" and asks when she first understood that the world had decided who she was.[4:20]
Malala recalls being in a coma while her story spread worldwide, then waking up in a Birmingham hospital, in pain, with no idea of the media narrative that had formed around her.[4:41]
She describes realizing that surviving a terrorist attack meant she was now labeled a brave, courageous activist, receiving awards and titles she felt obliged to live up to.[5:43]
Malala internalized the global narrative that she could no longer have a "normal" teenage life and had to sacrifice ordinary experiences to meet others' expectations.[6:19]

Internalizing expectations and early public life

Living up to labels of bravery and activism

Malala says she began to describe her drive as a "sense of responsibility" to live up to the idea of being fearless and committed to girls around the world.[7:14]
At 15-17 she was trying to balance being a student, writing a book, giving speeches, and then receiving the Nobel Peace Prize at 17.[8:02]
She tells the story of learning she had won the Nobel Peace Prize while in chemistry class, giving brief remarks, then returning to finish her school day and declining to do interviews until after school.[8:02]
The day after the Nobel announcement she briefly felt noticed at school, but quickly sensed her peers turning away again and went back to feeling like she had no friends.[9:00]

Difficulty making friends in a new country

Malala describes arriving at an all-girls school in a new country and language where most girls already had established friendships.[9:24]
Her classmates had seen her story in the news and felt awkward approaching her, while she felt nervous initiating conversations and missed her old life in Pakistan.[9:50]
In Pakistan she had been mischievous, adventurous, gossiping with friends and mimicking accents, and she feared that version of herself was gone forever.[9:56]

Childhood in Pakistan and love of school

Mischievous troublemaker versus "mythical heroine"

Malala laughs about being turned into a "mythical heroine" and "reticent saint" in media portrayals, noting that in reality she was a troublemaker who loved jokes and mischief.[11:45]
She recalls eagerly joining speeches, debates, and even singing (despite a "terrible" voice) and constantly wanting to be active at school.[11:17]

Why education felt like a privilege

Growing up in Mingora, she and her friends saw firsthand how girls without education lost the chance to choose their own futures, through the stories of aunts, cousins, and siblings.[13:21]
Her mother briefly attended primary school as the only girl in her class, then sold her books for candies and never returned to a classroom until years later after marrying Malala's supportive father.[14:03]
Malala contrasts girls in Pakistan, who treasured every moment at school because it was rare and often unsafe, with places where students complain and can't wait for school to end.[11:40]
In a patriarchal context where girls are expected to remain within the home, school served as a safe space where girls could explore and enjoy some autonomy.[12:16]

Her father's feminist commitment

Malala explains that her father and his brother both received education while their five sisters did not, yet only her father resolved to educate his future daughter.[14:59]
He questioned why his sisters were denied school, decided girls should have the same rights as boys, and concluded that men must change for women's lives to change.[14:14]
She quotes his philosophy: "don't ask me what I did, ask me what I did not do"-he believes in not clipping a girl's wings and simply stepping back to give women and girls space.[16:00]
Malala stresses her story is not unique; many girls wanted to speak out against the Taliban, but their fathers or brothers stopped them, while hers did not.[16:26]
She recounts a cousin complaining that she should cover her face, and her father firmly telling him to mind his own business and that what she wears is her choice.[18:26]

Taliban takeover and becoming an activist

Early dreams before full-time activism

As a child, Malala dreamed variously of being a car mechanic, then a doctor, and later prime minister when she saw leaders failing to stand up to the Taliban.[20:06]
When the Taliban banned girls' education and restricted women's movement, she simply wanted girls to be able to go to school and not be harmed for learning.[20:34]

What Taliban rule looked like in daily life

Malala describes the Taliban initially giving religious sermons, then quickly imposing restrictions on women working or going to markets, and targeting artists and musicians.[19:56]
They publicly announced people's names, then killed them for disobeying rules, creating an atmosphere of terror.[21:54]
When they banned girls from school, Taliban members stood on roads so girls could not be seen in uniform or with backpacks; Malala's brothers packed their bags while she had to stay home.[22:38]
She and friends later tried going to school secretly in home clothes with long scarves to hide their bags, but she felt girls should not have to hide that they were learning.[23:10]

Starting the BBC blog and public activism

Feeling that the world was silent, she and her father looked for ways to let people know what was happening, speaking at local press conferences, peace walks, and to local media.[24:00]
A BBC journalist asked for a student to blog about life under Taliban rule; another girl tried briefly but her father stopped her, so Malala volunteered.[24:23]
She began blogging about her last days of school and life under the education ban, believing that change would not happen if they waited for someone else to save them.[25:01]
She saw herself simply following in her activist father's footsteps as they worked together, and notes she became an activist not by choice but because her school was closed.[25:25]

Military operation, displacement, and ongoing threats

A military operation eventually pushed the Taliban out and her family became internally displaced, then returned to a war-torn Swat Valley with bombed schools and buildings.[28:10]
Swat, once a tourist destination known as the "Switzerland of the East," had become associated with terrorism; they now had to rebuild.[28:31]
Malala realized the struggle was not only against armed groups but against a persistent ideology that does not see women as equal humans, and she and her father continued activism believing the Taliban were gone.[29:09]
She often imagined what would happen if a Taliban gunman attacked but hoped they would not target a 14- or 15-year-old girl, and worried more about her father's safety.[30:10]

The attack and medical recovery

Details of the assassination attempt

On a school bus ride home, expecting to prepare for exams, their bus was stopped by Taliban gunmen; one distracted the driver while another at the back asked, "Who's Malala?"[35:01]
With her face uncovered, she was quickly identified; the gunman opened fire, one bullet hitting her left forehead and two others injuring the arms and hand of friends beside her.[35:29]
She says she does not remember the exact incident, has told herself she does not remember it, and was moved through several hospitals before being transferred to the UK.[35:48]

Waking up in the UK and realizing her new reality

Malala remembers her last day at school in Pakistan, then waking up in a Birmingham hospital with a tube in her neck, unable to speak, surrounded by English-speaking staff who looked different from people back home.[36:49]
She wrote questions asking where she was, what had happened, and repeatedly, "Where is my father?" while also worrying who would pay the medical bill because she had no money.[37:16]
Her parents joined her 10 days later; seeing them for the first time made her cry, which she had been unable to do before because the pain was so intense her normal emotional reactions were blunted.[38:01]
She initially believed her time in the UK was temporary and that they would soon return to Pakistan and a normal life, unaware of how much had changed.[39:03]

Discovering global attention and starting Malala Fund

A hospital worker brought a basket of cards and letters from people all over the world, which was Malala's first clue that her story had spread globally.[39:16]
Looking herself up online, she realized the scale of attention and saw it as an opportunity to bring focus to other girls' stories.[39:49]
She started Malala Fund to dedicate herself to girls' education, becoming the lead activist in her family, signing a book deal, giving speeches, and helping support her family while also resuming school.[40:11]
She notes that in the rush of medical procedures, media, and activism, it was easy to forget she was only 15 and "supposed to be a girl."[41:27]

Loneliness, mental health, and delayed trauma

No space to grieve and the pressure to be brave

Malala says there was little time or space for grief, anger, or doubt because she felt she had to embody courage and hope publicly.[45:23]
She recounts that years later, she still had not processed the attack because she believed not remembering it meant she was fine and fully recovered.[45:52]

PTSD triggered by a college bong incident

Seven years after the shooting, during a normal college night, friends offered her a bong; on the second inhale she felt it move through her body and was suddenly thrown into vivid flashbacks of the attack.[46:57]
She froze, felt she was reliving the shooting, saw the gunman, shook and shivered, heard her heartbeat, wanted to scream, and believed she might be dead or that the gunmen were back.[47:29]
Time slowed down, she was terrified to close her eyes for fear of dying, and the next day she hoped it would disappear but it did not.[47:41]
After that night she experienced many panic attacks and could no longer watch news containing words like "killing" or "attack" without intense fear.[57:06]

Guilt and feeling like an imposter of bravery

Malala describes feeling angry and frustrated with herself that she could face terrorism with courage as a child but now felt broken by seemingly small triggers while physically safe.[49:58]
She felt she had failed to live up to the definition of bravery people had for her, and that made her feel like an imposter.[50:39]

Starting therapy and understanding PTSD

Friends noticed she was not okay and one suggested she see a therapist, leading to her first therapy session 7-8 years after the attack.[50:55]
The therapist told her she was experiencing PTSD and anxiety, possibly compounded by college stress, and taught her breathing techniques and the concept of a "window of tolerance" that can shrink when overwhelmed.[52:10]
Malala initially wanted a quick fix or medication, but learned that processing trauma takes time and that symptoms can pile up if not addressed earlier.[52:51]
She says therapy changed everything for her and doubts she would be in her current position without it.[53:50]

Family responses and the role of friends

When she tried to tell her parents gently about her mental health struggles, her mother advised her not to be stressed and "just be happy," and her father said her sadness made them sad, revealing their limited understanding.[54:26]
She debated with her father that she had a right to be sad and needed time to process emotions.[55:01]
College friends supported her practically-taking her to dinner or walks and organizing rotating sleepovers when she was afraid to sleep, until she finally managed to fall asleep with a friend present.[55:34]
Learning that her friends and many others also saw therapists helped her feel less alone and reduced the shame she felt about needing help.[56:33]
She hopes sharing her story will encourage others who feel stuck to ask for help sooner than she did.[56:55]

Friendship, identity, and feeling normal

What makes a good friend for someone in the public eye

Malala defines a good friend as someone with whom she can be herself without overthinking whether she is saying everything correctly.[58:38]
For someone scrutinized publicly, friends create a nonjudgmental environment where she can be silly, talk about boys, astrology, and gossip without having to perform an image.[59:20]

Intentionally making friends at college

Determined not to repeat her lonely school experience, she decided in her first week at college to say hi to everyone, even if it felt cringe.[59:31]
She describes befriending Cora, then attending the Oxford Union fair where she saw her own photo on a poster and was recognized by others.[1:03:09]
Malala feared the friendship would end when her friend saw her public persona, but instead Cora casually took photos and then switched the conversation back to groceries and essays, which reassured Malala.[1:04:15]

Love, self-image, and marriage

Being a "relationship guru" without dating experience

Malala humorously recalls becoming the "relationship guru" among her college friends, advising them about ghosting and red flags even though she had never been on a date.[1:04:40]
She jokes that sometimes a coach doesn't have to be on the field, and that she often told friends to move on or that there is more to life.[1:04:08]

Insecurity after the attack and early crushes

After the attack, facial nerve damage caused asymmetry in her features and smile, which made her very self-conscious and convinced no one would love her.[1:05:41]
She decided love life was "not for me" and focused on work, forgetting to love herself in the process.[1:06:18]
In college she developed a one-sided crush on a mysterious "bad boy" type who visited her room to eat bananas and cookies and then disappeared; friends warned he might be doing drugs, but she felt he needed protecting.[1:07:14]
That crush ultimately ghosted her, but she was glad to have at least felt what it was like to love someone in her imagination.[1:09:29]

Meeting Asar and learning to accept love

Malala describes falling in love with Asar, now her husband, finding him very good-looking, funny, and entertaining, and feeling he might be the person she had imagined for herself.[1:09:46]
The hardest part was accepting that he truly loved her; she constantly doubted why he would love her and questioned whether he was okay with her appearance and partial smile.[1:10:44]
She eventually told herself that if someone treats you with respect, makes you happy, wants to spend their life with you, and calls you beautiful, then you should accept and embrace that love without demanding proof.[1:09:59]
She says Asar's love gave her immense joy and, more importantly, helped her start loving herself.[1:10:56]

Asar's background and "basic" feminism

Asar grew up with two much older sisters and describes having "three moms"; he was less close to his father.[1:11:28]
Malala notes that he has the "right views" about women working and making decisions about their bodies and careers, and jokes that such men should be called basic, normal men rather than praised as exceptional.[1:11:57]
She makes the same point about her father as a feminist dad, saying that should be what a basic, normal dad looks like.[1:12:20]

Wrestling with marriage as an institution

Malala says the biggest hurdle was marriage itself: she had seen how marriage, especially child and forced marriage, often diminished girls' futures and felt she was thinking collectively for women when deciding.[1:13:58]
She knew that culturally to live with Asar they would have to marry, and she knew she could not change that entire culture overnight.[1:13:47]
She and Asar discussed marriage as a mutual agreement, read feminist authors, and the more time she spent with him the more her doubts quieted.[1:15:04]
On a trip to Lake Placid, she intended to grill him with questions that might end the relationship, but found she was getting her answers without asking; at the end she told him she already had the answer and was ready to spend her life with him.[1:15:32]
She emphasizes she is not saying marriage is the best or worst choice for all women, but that it should be discussed openly and traditions should be redefined so marriage becomes a joyful mutual partnership, especially by challenging parts that have historically given less to women.[1:16:12]
Malala laughs that she once warned friends to avoid marriage and boys, only to be the first in her group to marry, and tells people to listen to her on education, not treat her as an expert on marriage.[1:17:46]

Current global work and girls' education

State of the world for women and girls

Malala feels the world is becoming more difficult for women and girls, pointing to Afghanistan where for four years the Taliban have restricted women and girls from education, work, and public life.[1:18:37]
She cites activists and human rights groups calling this a "gender apartheid"-a systematic oppression based solely on gender so that being born a girl means a completely different, restricted life.[1:18:55]
She connects this with school bombings and attacks on children in other conflict zones, mentioning Sudan, Congo, and Palestine, including what she has seen in Gaza on screens.[1:19:35]
Her simple wish is for girls to live dignified lives with full access to education, and she argues that conflicts, wars, and climate-related disasters cannot be separated from their impact on girls' schooling.[1:20:18]

Why local activists are central to change

Malala says real change is driven by local activists who deeply understand their communities' problems and best solutions, just as she and her father did in Swat.[1:21:06]
With Malala Fund she had to question what truly creates change, concluding that it is not one famous speech but decades of narrative-shifting, policy work, and law reform.[1:22:28]
Malala Fund invests in local education activists in Nigeria, Pakistan, Ethiopia, Tanzania, Brazil, and prioritizes Afghanistan because of the formal ban on girls' education.[1:22:41]
They support alternative education for Afghan girls, including bringing schooling into homes when girls are banned from attending school buildings, while also insisting this situation must not be normalized.[1:22:41]
The Fund also backs Afghan women activists campaigning to codify gender apartheid, to pressure the Taliban, and to ensure women's rights and participation are on negotiation agendas.[1:23:12]
Malala argues that as long as the education ban persists, they are not doing enough and must constantly do more within their capacity.[1:23:56]
She prefers to support young women and girl activists, believing that those experiencing the problems are often best placed to advocate for their rights.[1:24:08]

Why investing in girls' education benefits everyone

Malala explains that when girls are educated they can support their families financially, reducing the sole burden on boys to be breadwinners and benefiting entire households.[17:47]
She notes education for girls is linked to reduced poverty, greater economic empowerment, and more prosperity, helping men and boys as well.[17:34]
She emphasizes that policy changes for girls' education (like guaranteeing secondary education) also improve boys' education because they expand investment in schooling overall.[17:53]
She calls child marriage a major ongoing problem in many countries and believes it should be illegal everywhere, with those arranging it held accountable.[18:10]

Sense of belonging, home, and opening a school

Belonging beyond geography

Malala says she has long struggled with belonging because of how she left Pakistan, yet has kept returning to smell the air, see the mountains, and sit by the river where she grew up.[1:34:51]
After meeting so many people around the world she now feels belonging in the company of family, in loud laughter with friends, and when holding her husband's hand, rather than in one specific place.[1:35:23]
She concludes that meeting many people taught her "we're all one," and says she once searched for a single physical home but now feels that home is everywhere.[1:35:23]

Building a high school in her parents' village

Malala was particularly focused on her hometown, where there was no high school for girls in the village where her parents were born, even as she campaigned globally.[1:36:24]
She decided to use her Nobel Prize money and Malala Fund to build a school in that hard-to-reach mountainous area, believing if they could succeed there they could do it anywhere in the country.[1:36:47]
After 7-8 years of work, the first class graduated and in March she visited the school for the first time, finding it very different seeing it in person versus on slides.[1:37:14]
She describes the joy of seeing girls playing, talking, laughing, and dreaming in a state-of-the-art school surrounded by mountains.[1:36:38]
She was especially moved by the presence of a mental health office where girls receive support, sing and dance together, and sometimes just scream to let emotions out.[1:38:01]
Reflecting on her own delayed mental health support, she felt deep happiness that these girls were receiving the emotional care they deserve alongside academics.[1:37:49]
She says this gives her hope that education can become a reality for every girl and that the 122 million girls out of school can be reached.[1:38:48]

Final reflections and rapid-fire questions

How she processes the attack today

Malala notes that the interview is being recorded on October 9th, the date of the attack, 13 years later, and says she tries to live it as a normal day and not think about it.[1:27:00]
She finds it hard to process that day because it centers the gunman and challenges her hope in humanity, so instead she focuses on the millions who supported her and the activists working for girls' futures.[1:27:31]
She frames the day as a reminder of her commitment to creating a world where no child faces a bullet and every child can go to school and play.[1:28:22]

Vision of world peace and concern about dehumanization

Asked what peace looks like, Malala immediately thinks of world peace rather than inner peace, recalling living amid gunshots, suicide attacks, and bombings every 10 minutes.[1:29:32]
She wishes bombings and wars would stop and is especially worried about how dehumanization of groups lays the groundwork for violence and oppression.[1:30:34]
She hopes people see each other as equal and stand up against the spread of arms and violent tools.[1:31:01]

Message to young girls who feel hopeless

To a young girl discouraged by the state of the world, Malala says she has felt that hopelessness many times but reminds herself there is always something she can do today.[1:31:57]
She urges girls not to wait for others to change things, but to see themselves as potential changemakers who can shift situations.[1:31:49]

On laws, gender apartheid, and free will

When asked what law she would create, Malala highlights efforts to recognize what is happening in Afghanistan as gender apartheid in the crimes against humanity framework.[1:34:44]
She argues that bans on girls' education should be recognized as international crimes and that the Taliban should be held accountable, with countries obliged to respond rather than normalize relations.[1:35:26]
At the same time, she emphasizes the power of free will and personal responsibility: people do not always need laws to treat each other better, stand up for what is right, and show solidarity with the oppressed.[1:36:01]

Rapid-fire "final five" answers

Best advice: words of support that make someone feel you are there for them, coupled with actions; she recalls how hearing "believe in yourself" as a child meant everything.[1:40:33]
Worst advice: getting a fringe (bangs) cut during COVID, which she regretted for two years while waiting for it to grow out.[1:41:49]
Part of herself she is learning to love: the part that is extremely ambitious for change yet constantly questions whether she has done enough, given the scale of problems like Afghanistan, Gaza, and millions of girls out of school.[1:42:48]
She reminds herself that change is collective, not the work of one person, and that doubting herself is not the answer; instead she must keep supporting activists and amplifying girls' voices.[1:43:49]
She explains main reasons girls are out of school: lack of schools, safety and distance issues, poor teaching quality, limited secondary schools, and social norms that discourage girls' education.[1:44:48]
On child marriage, she says tens of millions of girls are married before 18 and believes it should be banned everywhere, with culture challenged through storytelling and media.[1:48:07]
At the end she emphasizes that humor is a core part of who she is, that she laughs through many things, and that her book includes not only serious topics but also her sense of humor, which helps her cope.[3:16:40]

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

You cannot let the narratives others project onto you fully define who you are; reclaiming your identity requires consciously separating public expectations from your private needs and desires.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your life are you living more according to others' expectations than your own values and preferences?
  • • How could you create a small daily practice that reconnects you with who you are when no one is watching?
  • • What is one label you've internalized from others that you might experiment with loosening or discarding this month?
2

Trauma can surface years later in unexpected ways, and seeking professional help is a sign of responsibility to yourself and those you serve, not a failure of strength.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What difficult experiences from your past might still be influencing your reactions more than you admit?
  • • How would your day-to-day life change if you treated mental health support as maintenance rather than an emergency fix?
  • • Who could you reach out to this week-a professional or trusted friend-to start a more honest conversation about how you're really doing?
3

Lasting social change rarely comes from a single heroic act; it is the cumulative result of many local actors working persistently over years to shift culture, policy, and law.

Reflection Questions:

  • • When you think about a cause you care about, are you over-focusing on symbolic gestures instead of sustained, practical action?
  • • How could you identify and support local people or organizations already doing effective work on an issue you care about?
  • • What is one small, consistent contribution you could commit to over the next year that would matter more than a one-time burst of effort?
4

Allowing yourself to be loved often requires challenging deeply held beliefs about your own worth and learning to accept care without demanding impossible guarantees.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In what ways do you quietly question whether you are fully lovable or deserving of the care you receive?
  • • How might your relationships shift if you chose to trust others' consistent actions toward you rather than seeking constant verbal proof?
  • • What is one simple compliment or act of kindness you usually deflect that you could practice receiving graciously this week?
5

Investing in girls' education is a powerful lever for broader social progress, improving not just individual lives but family resilience, economic health, and community stability.

Reflection Questions:

  • • How aware are you of the educational opportunities and barriers faced by girls in your own community or country?
  • • In what concrete ways could you contribute-time, money, skills-to expanding access to quality education for marginalized children?
  • • What is one policy, norm, or practice related to education that you could help challenge or change in your sphere of influence?
6

Belonging is less about geography and more about people and experiences that make you feel seen, safe, and able to be yourself fully.

Reflection Questions:

  • • When in your recent life have you felt most at ease and most like your unedited self, and who were you with?
  • • How might redefining "home" as a set of relationships and rituals, rather than a single place, change the way you navigate transitions?
  • • What is one relationship you could invest in more intentionally to deepen your everyday sense of belonging?

Episode Summary - Notes by Jordan

MALALA: The Story The World Hasn't Heard Until Now
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