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On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Divorce Lawyer James Sexton: #1 Conversation Every Couple Should Have Before it's Too Late (Use THIS 3-Step Script TODAY!)

with James Sexton

Published November 24, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

Divorce lawyer and author James Sexton shares insights from 25 years of facilitating the end of marriages about what actually destroys relationships and what helps them last. He argues that disconnection and not feeling seen, rather than cheating or money alone, are the primary marriage killers, and emphasizes the importance of small daily gestures, honest communication, and preventive "maintenance" conversations. The discussion also covers prenups as a mutual safety tool, the impact of divorce and conflict on children, gendered patterns around infidelity and divorce initiation, and how ego and unexamined stories sabotage both marriages and breakups.

Topics Covered

Relationships Marriage Romantic relationships Communication skills Parenting and child development Masculinity Sex differences in psychology Family patterns Personal Development

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • Sexton believes the main killers of marriage are disconnection and partners no longer feeling seen, with cheating and money problems usually being symptoms rather than root causes.
  • He argues couples need regular, structured check-ins where they share what made them feel loved, what hurt, and what would make them feel loved in the coming week.
  • Small, consistent gestures of care-like replacing a favorite granola or bringing water to bed-often matter more to long-term connection than big occasions like anniversaries.
  • Sex and physical affection act as relational "glue"; when they quietly disappear, partners often seek surrogate outlets like pornography or affairs instead of having hard conversations.
  • Sexton says everyone effectively already has a prenup written by the government, and encourages couples to write their own agreements as an act of mutual protection and clarity.
  • He stresses that for children, exposure to parental conflict is more damaging than divorce itself, and urges parents to love their kids more than they hate their ex.
  • Women file the majority of divorce cases, but Sexton explains this often reflects men leaving informally while women must file to secure support and stability.
  • He suggests that marriage should be measured by satisfaction and mutual growth rather than simply "making it to death" regardless of misery.
  • Sexton sees vulnerability-openly expressing needs, fears, and longing without blame-as a core discipline required for enduring, loving partnerships.

Podcast Notes

Introduction and guest background

Opening and framing of the conversation

Host welcomes listeners back to "On Purpose" and thanks them for returning weekly to learn and grow
Host introduces guest James Sexton as a divorce lawyer and author of "How to Stay in Love" whose work is meaningful, powerful, and very direct
James says he is a fan of the host's work and that the conversations on the show have moved him forward in his own thinking

Divorce statistics and what they really mean

Is the 50% divorce statistic true?

Host asks if it is true that 50% of marriages end in divorce
James confirms it's actually a little over 50%, calling it a frightening and stunning statistic
He explains legal concepts of negligence and recklessness and says, by those standards, marriage could be seen as a negligent or reckless activity because more than half end in pain and heartbreak

Failure rate vs. unhappily married couples

James notes that beyond the 50% who divorce, there is an unknown percentage of couples who are unhappy but stay together for kids or financial reasons
If you conservatively add another 10-20% of unhappy-but-staying couples, the "fail rate" is closer to 70%
He is shocked that something with a 70% fail rate is still treated as an unquestioned norm

Why people still marry despite the odds

James shares a contrasting statistic: about 86% of people who divorce are remarried within five years
• He interprets this as evidence of how important marriage and deep connection are to human beings, since people go back to it even after painful experiences
Host points out that if any other investment had a 50% failure rate, most people would stay away, yet people still marry
James says many people assume marriage is the right thing to do and socially expected, despite the data

Questioning the purpose of marriage and the wedding vs. the marriage

What problem is marriage a solution to?

James suggests a crucial question almost nobody asks: "What is the problem to which marriage is a solution?"
• He contrasts this with how we evaluate other tools or technologies, like a mic stand or a glass of water, where we clearly see what problem they solve
He notes it would be considered rude in polite society to ask someone who announces an engagement, "Why are you getting married?" even though it's a reasonable question given the stakes

Wedding industrial complex vs. preparing for marriage

James talks about the "wedding industrial complex" as a multibillion-dollar business that amplifies focus on the event rather than the long-term partnership
He and the host both say they love weddings and get emotional at them; James says nothing in his job has diminished his excitement for weddings
James argues that saying "I do" is not saying "I can" but at best saying "I'll try"
He believes people should take the "being married" part much more seriously from the beginning instead of over-focusing on the wedding day

Bravery of love and inevitability of loss

Why love and marriage are inherently risky and brave

James says his day job is facilitating the demise of unhappy marriages, yet it has deepened his appreciation for romantic love
He emphasizes that every marriage ends-either in death or divorce-so to love at all is to open yourself up to inevitable loss
He concludes that you "should be scared" to love or get married, and that makes it brave; it's only brave if you're scared and do it anyway

Host's reflection on commitment with limited information

Host notes that when he got married, he believed he loved his wife and they were meant for each other, but realizes years later he had far less information and insight at that moment
He reflects that the subsequent years of marriage revealed much more about the commitment than he could have known at the wedding

Root causes of divorce: disconnection and not feeling seen

What actually ends marriages beneath the surface reasons

James says people often expect him to list cheating or financial misdeeds as top reasons for divorce because those give a sense of control
He instead calls those things symptoms; he believes the underlying illness is disconnection
He describes couples falling in love quickly but falling out of love and into disconnection slowly, "very slowly and then all at once" like bankruptcy
James argues that by the time couples go over the cliff of full disconnection, it may be too late to fix, which is why he emphasizes preventative maintenance

Lying to ourselves and losing sight of our partner

He says the most dangerous lies are those we tell ourselves about what's making us happy, how we've changed, and how our partner has changed
James notes people often stop seeing their partner and stop making them feel seen, similar to how we become blind to familiar objects like an old couch
He compares dating to feeling both interested and interesting, which is intoxicating; over time people assume "we did the thing" and stop actively engaging
He connects this to a form of loneliness where being with the person who is supposed to be your deepest connection yet feeling alone is a unique misery

Small gestures, being seen, and death by a thousand paper cuts

How minor daily actions communicate love or neglect

Host notes that when someone doesn't do chores or forgets errands, the deeper feeling is often "you don't see me" or "we're disconnected"
James calls repeated small disappointments like undone dishes "death by a thousand paper cuts" to a relationship
He says doing those same small tasks, like washing dishes unprompted, can powerfully communicate "I love you" and "I value your time"

Client stories about granola and intimacy as signs

James recounts a client who knew her marriage was ending when her husband stopped replacing a special granola she loved, a task he had always quietly done
• For her, the absence of the granola being replaced signaled his care and attunement had faded
When he asked the client if she had an equivalent habit for her husband, she immediately replied "blowjobs" and described how those had quietly disappeared after kids and time pressures
• She realized in hindsight that this was likely an important expression of love for him, much like the granola had been for her
James uses this story to show that couples often don't realize which small behaviors are deeply meaningful to their partner until they stop

Recognition, gratitude, and reciprocity

Host points out that when someone performs a loving act for a long time, others start treating it as a baseline and stop expressing gratitude
He shares his own learning: growing up with a mother who cooked three fresh meals a day made hot meals feel like "normality" until he saw his wife doing the same and realized how much effort it took
He says appreciating his wife's cooking helped him retroactively appreciate his mother more too
James emphasizes that these small, selfless acts require recognition and often spark a desire to reciprocate

Family patterns and learning how to love

Repeating what we grow up with, for better or worse

James notes that just as positive habits (like cooking) can be normalized from childhood, harmful patterns are also easily repeated
He says many people who grew up with parental substance abuse or domestic violence unconsciously assume "this is what men/women do" and later choose similar partners
He points out that there are no classes in how to love, so people mainly learn about relationships by watching parents and their environment
He argues that one of the greatest gifts we can give is modeling how to love and be loved, because others rarely get explicit teaching on it

Masculinity, cheating, and misunderstood desires

Why men often cheat around pregnancy and early parenthood

Host cites reading that the two times men are most likely to cheat are when a partner is pregnant and when a child is young
He shares that many men told him they struggled with becoming a second priority to the baby, even though they also wanted the baby to be prioritized
James says this matches his observation of infidelity and that the feelings are understandable but hard to express without triggering defensiveness

Reframing vulnerable feelings to avoid defensiveness

James suggests more skillful ways to express these feelings, such as "I admire watching you care for our child and I'm falling in love with you again, and I also miss some of your warmth"
He contrasts blameful statements like "we never have sex" with vulnerable ones like "I miss feeling connected to you"
He believes almost any difficult sentiment has a way it can be expressed that deepens connection rather than creating a defensive reaction

Cheating as a symptom of disconnection

James calls infidelity a symptom, not a root cause, of relationship breakdown and says he has "a PhD in infidelity" from his work
He shares that many cheaters tell him the affair "had nothing to do" with their spouse and was about their own feelings and unmet needs
He notes people often view sex as a basic human need like hunger, and if they feel they can't discuss their desire safely, they go "elsewhere" rather than "without"

Designing a healthier marriage "contract"

Weekly check-in structure James would mandate

Asked what he'd put in a modern marriage contract, James proposes a mandatory weekly check-in with a simple script
The check-in would include: (1) something you did this week that made me feel loved, (2) something that made me feel less loved or where you "got it wrong", and (3) something you could do this coming week that would make me feel loved
He frames loving a partner as a "job" or vocation people should want to get good at, and sees this as low-cost, high-benefit maintenance

Commitment to interpret feedback as love

James says another clause would be agreeing to hear even uncomfortable feedback as coming from a desire to protect the bond, not attack the person
He believes couples should pledge to "hit send" on small issues early so they remain small, instead of letting them grow into resentment

Sex, affection, and surrogate activities

Sex as glue between partners

James calls sex "the glue" in many relationships and says it's a key difference between a spouse and a roommate
He notes many men complain in divorce that sex stopped or became very infrequent; many women complain that the only time their partner touched them was as a prelude to sex
He argues that physical affection like kissing, holding hands, and simple touch often vanish over time, even though they were abundant early in dating

Pornography and emotional affairs as surrogates

James says when sexual and physical needs aren't addressed or communicated, people turn to surrogate activities such as pornography, paid sex, affairs, or emotional affairs
He frames these surrogates as "snack bars" people reach for when they feel they can't get a proper meal in their relationship
He emphasizes they are a response to disconnection and unspoken needs rather than stand-alone problems

Prenups and the legal structure of marriage

Why James says everyone already has a prenup

James answers "yes" to whether everyone should get a prenup, but clarifies that everyone effectively already has one: it's either drafted by the government or by the couple
He defines a prenup as a contract where two people agree to specific rules that will apply if the marriage ends in something other than death
Without a prenup, spouses are automatically accepting whatever current and future laws the government sets about property and support, whether or not they understand them
He notes that government rules can change over time without the couple's consent, unlike most private contracts

Prenup conversations as relationship skills training

Host mentions a friend who said prenup talks were difficult but gave them crucial skills for hard conversations they would need in marriage
James often coaches clients on how to bring up prenups, suggesting they frame it around mutual safety: it's hard to feel loved if you don't feel safe
He says a good entry is discussing what each person would need to feel safe if the marriage ended, and designing an agreement around that

Courts, injustice, and emotional callousness

What breaks James's heart in the courtroom

James says he has developed a professional callous to day-to-day painful stories so he can remain effective, similar to how a pediatric oncologist must function
What hurts him most is seeing the legal system fail: people losing because they can't afford good representation, and unfit judges misusing their power
He notes that in practice people often get "as much justice as they can afford" despite the ideal of equal protection under law

Deciding whether to keep trying or get a divorce

When efforts have been exhausted

James acknowledges the question of whether to stay or leave is subjective, but he believes in doing substantial good-faith work before deciding
He uses a hospice metaphor: people call hospice too late, and similarly many couples come to him when it's far too late for repair
He suggests that if you've made real efforts to address disconnection and your partner is not engaged at all, it may be time to recognize the relationship cannot be saved

James's own divorce and continued family bonds

James shares that he divorced about 20 years ago and is now a close friend of his ex-wife, who has been remarried for 15 years
He describes attending his son's wedding with his ex-wife and her husband and feeling warmth and shared love for their children
He recalls a pivotal conversation at the kitchen table where he and his then-wife both admitted feeling deeply unfulfilled and she said, "If sheer power of will could make two people love each other, we would love each other forever"
He argues that sometimes love alone isn't enough to sustain a marriage if the fit and shared life don't work, and that "happily ever after" can mean happily ever after separately

Children, conflict, and co-parenting after divorce

Is staying together for the kids helpful or harmful?

James references long-term research ("The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce") which found that parental conflict, not divorce itself, is most damaging to children
He notes divorce and conflict are correlated because high-conflict couples often divorce, but it's the exposure to ongoing conflict and loyalty binds that harms kids
He says gutting out a marriage in a home full of conflict is not doing children a favor; the goal should be marital satisfaction, not simply making it to death together

Alienation, negative gatekeeping, and being the grown-up

James explains concepts of parental estrangement, alienation (active interference), and negative gatekeeping (failing to support the other parent's bond)
He describes subtle ways a parent can poison a child's view of the other parent without saying anything explicitly bad, for example through tone and anxious questioning after visits
He urges parents to "love your kid more than you hate your ex" and to act like a grown-up by regulating their own reactions and presenting calm reassurance to children
He recalls comforting his feverish young son, pretending everything was okay despite being terrified, as an example of the lying children sometimes need for safety

Ego, control, and imaginary solutions

Ego's role in conflict and divorce

Host and James repeatedly return to the theme that ego, desire for control, and need to be "right" drive many bad decisions in relationships and divorces
They discuss an example where a multimillion-dollar divorce settlement collapsed over a $48 toaster oven, illustrating how power and ego can override rational cost-benefit thinking

Technology, marriage, and imaginary solutions

James cites his mentor Neil Postman's idea that technology often offers real solutions to imaginary problems and imaginary solutions to real problems
He applies this to marriage, calling it an imaginary solution to very real problems like loneliness, the difficulty of self-knowledge, and the desire to be loved
He notes even extremely wealthy clients cannot buy their way out of core human issues like disconnection or fear, highlighting that money isn't a solution to those real problems

Gender patterns in divorce initiation and suffering

Why women file for divorce more often

James states that over 70% of divorces are initiated by women
He cautions that some online communities weaponize this statistic to claim women are "cashing out" of marriage, but his experience shows a more complex picture
He explains that men more often "go out for milk and never come back" or leave informally, forcing women to file for divorce to secure child support, mortgage payments, and legal orders
He describes cases where women resisted filing because they didn't want divorce, but had no choice practically, only to be later blamed by men for "filing"

Who suffers more: men or women?

James says the world is cruel to both genders but in different ways
He notes men can be crushed economically by large support and alimony awards and by bias that still presumes mothers are primary parents despite formal abolition of doctrines like "tender years"
He observes that post-divorce, men's dating prospects are often better than women's; divorced men may date younger women, whereas divorced women with children are more likely to be seen as having "baggage" by some men
He also shares positive examples where men step up as devoted step-parents, showing there are many exceptions

Final reflections and "law" James would create

Key advice and bad advice about love

Best advice James has received: "The hard thing to do and the right thing to do are almost always the same thing," which he applies to relationships as well as life generally
Worst advice: "Happy wife, happy life" because it encourages self-silencing and inauthenticity; he prefers "happy spouse, happy house"
He also criticizes the advice "follow your heart," arguing the heart is filtered through a mind that often lies to us

Questions couples should ask before marriage

He repeats that couples should ask, "What is the problem to which marriage is a solution for you?" and check whether their answers align
He recommends discussing practical issues like sleeping patterns, neatness, and daily living habits since spouses are also roommates, business partners, and travel companions

Lies couples believe that undermine them

He names two opposite lies: that marriage will magically change fundamental traits, and that nothing will ever change and everything will always feel the same
He stresses people change a great deal across decades, and early red flags or patterns usually don't disappear by themselves after marriage

Law James would impose on everyone

James says his law would require everyone shortly after turning 18 to spend about six months volunteering in hospice
• He believes our culture shields people from death, which distorts how we view life and leads us to chase the wrong things
• He argues regular exposure to mortality would clarify priorities and make people less susceptible to distractions and illusions
As a secondary law, he suggests mandatory premarital education and a waiting period, including talking to divorced people and divorce lawyers, before being allowed to marry
He notes that unlike driving or owning a gun, marriage currently requires no test, education, or cooling-off period, despite being legally more consequential than almost anything except death

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Disconnection and not feeling seen are often the true causes of relationship breakdown, long before cheating, money problems, or open conflict appear.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in my closest relationship do I currently feel unseen or disconnected, even in small everyday moments?
  • • How might I be inadvertently making my partner feel unseen through my routines, habits, or lack of attention?
  • • What specific conversation could I initiate this week to name and gently address one area of disconnection between us?
2

Small, consistent gestures of care and appreciation are more powerful for long-term intimacy than rare grand gestures like weddings or anniversaries.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What tiny recurring action from my partner makes me feel especially cared for that I've never clearly told them about?
  • • How could I turn one of my partner's daily annoyances into a quiet act of service that says "I see you" without needing credit?
  • • What is one small, repeatable gesture I can start doing this week to communicate love more clearly?
3

Hard, vulnerable conversations-about sex, resentment, or changing needs-are usually the right ones to have, and the way we frame them often determines whether they heal or harm.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which important conversation have I been avoiding because I'm afraid of conflict or rejection?
  • • How can I rephrase a complaint I have into a vulnerable expression of longing or appreciation for what I miss?
  • • When in the next seven days will I set aside quiet, uninterrupted time to share one difficult truth as kindly as I can?
4

Designing explicit agreements together-whether about money, roles, or a prenup-can increase safety and trust when they are framed as mutual protection rather than mistrust.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In what areas of my relationship are we relying on unspoken assumptions instead of clear, shared agreements?
  • • How might discussing "what we would each need to feel safe" in a worst-case scenario change the way we see our partnership?
  • • What is one concrete domain (e.g., finances, parenting, time) where we could draft a simple written agreement or routine this month?
5

For children, exposure to chronic parental conflict is more damaging than divorce itself, so loving your kids well sometimes means managing your own ego and anger toward your ex.

Reflection Questions:

  • • How do my words, tone, or questions about my co-parent shape my child's experience of that relationship?
  • • In moments of frustration with my ex, what would it look like to "love my kid more than I hate my ex" in practice?
  • • What one habit can I change this week-such as how I talk after handoffs or phone calls-to reduce my child's sense of conflict?

Episode Summary - Notes by Quinn

Divorce Lawyer James Sexton: #1 Conversation Every Couple Should Have Before it's Too Late (Use THIS 3-Step Script TODAY!)
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