Advice Line with Stacy Madison of Stacy's Pita Chips

with Stacey Madison, Sam Cagle, Alex Hildebrandt, Stephanie Stucky

Published October 16, 2025
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About This Episode

In this Advice Line episode of How I Built This Lab, host Guy Raz and guest co-host Stacey Madison, founder of Stacey's Pita Chips, answer questions from three entrepreneurs about scaling personality-driven brands, positioning a little-known spirit, and reviving a heritage snack company. Stacey also briefly reflects on her own journey, including her pivot from a food cart to pita chips, burnout from a pandemic-hit energy bar business, and the importance of listening to customers. Callers include the founder of a fast-growing pizza steel and content brand, the co-founder of a Peruvian pisco label, and the fourth-generation leader of Stucky's pecan snacks seeking to modernize while honoring legacy.

Topics Covered

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Quick Takeaways

  • Customer pull and real-world testing outside your initial context are key signals for when a side project deserves to become the main business.
  • For creator-led consumer brands, the founder often is the core value early on and needs to stay front-and-center while delegating non-core tasks.
  • When building an unfamiliar product category, leading with a strong, memorable brand and simple signature serves can be more effective than abstract category education.
  • Nostalgic and heritage brands can grow by doubling down on their loyal core demographic while gradually experimenting with new formats and messaging to reach younger consumers.
  • SKU discipline and focusing on top-performing products is crucial for bootstrapped manufacturers with capital-intensive operations.
  • A clear, vivid long-term brand vision (your "dream house") helps guide which adjacent products and audiences to pursue over time.
  • Authenticity in recipe and story often matters more than chasing every trend, such as force-fitting protein claims into products that consumers already love.
  • Smart, unexpected product or partnership ideas can function as marketing catalysts that get people talking about your brand and its core offering.

Podcast Notes

Introduction to the Advice Line episode and guest co-host

Show format and listener participation

Guy Raz explains that the Advice Line is where founders call in with business challenges[3:09]
Listeners can leave a one-minute message about their business and questions for potential inclusion on the show[3:36]
Guy mentions there are over 600 episodes in the How I Built This archive and references his newsletter for entrepreneurial insights[3:52]

Reintroduction of guest co-host Stacey Madison

Guy introduces Stacey as the founder and namesake of Stacey's Pita Chips[4:08]
Stacey expresses excitement and says she is flattered to be back[4:13]
Guy notes Stacey first appeared on the show in 2019 and at the How I Built This Summit[4:22]
Guy says many listeners tell him Stacey's episode is their all-time favorite[4:30]
Stacey confirms people still approach her referencing her original How I Built This story[4:43]

Recap of Stacey's original Stacey's Pita Chips origin story

Guy recalls Stacey began her career as a social worker in Washington, D.C., moved around, and tried various things before entrepreneurship[4:55]
Stacey and her then-partner Mark bought a hot dog cart in the Boston area and converted it into a pita sandwich cart[5:03]
They had excess pita bread daily, which they began toasting, tossing in Parmesan, and handing out as pita chips to people waiting in line[5:19]
The chips gained popularity organically, evolving into a standalone brand that eventually sold to Pepsi in 2006[5:28]

Stacey's post-acquisition ventures and burnout from Be Bold bars

Guy notes Stacey started a juice bar and an energy bar business after selling Stacey's Pita Chips, but neither is operating now[5:37]
Stacey says she has been raising her kids, both now seniors in college set to graduate this year[5:51]
She describes Stacey's Juice Bar as her passion next to pita chips, because it let her bring the healthy-lunch concept of her cart to life with juices, smoothies, salads, and quinoa[6:25]
Stacey mentions they sold Be Bold bars at the juice bar and had a strong local following; many customers bought a bar with lunch[6:30]
A buyer who listened to How I Built This and already carried Stacey's Pita Chips became interested in the bars, leading to distribution in 1,200 stores[7:00]
They invested more money to produce enough bars to stock shelves and maintain backup inventory just before the pandemic hit[7:14]
Stacey says the business ended up costing a lot of money and burned her out of the entrepreneurial world, and it still hits hard emotionally[7:29]
At one point she had $250,000 worth of bars and had to decide whether to throw them out or invest more and try to make a go of it[7:50]

Listening to customers and knowing when a side project should become the main business

Guy highlights that Stacey's Pita Chips began as a side hustle to the main sandwich business and was not part of the original plan[8:38]
He asks how Stacey knew the sandwiches were not the real business and that the chips were the opportunity[9:02]
Stacey describes feeling at a fork in the road, needing to choose whether to go one way or the other with limited resources[9:11]
She explains the food cart was seasonal, with income mostly in good weather, so she used winter to work on chip marketing, packaging, and attending trade shows[9:20]
Stacey spoke with other snack food companies and prepared the chips for a proper launch during that off-season[9:28]
In the second year they hired help at the cart so she and Mark could focus more on chips, and by 1997 they committed to chips full-time[9:42]
She says the decision was driven by customer chatter and demand, including people asking for extra bags in bulk to take home[10:06]
Stacey emphasizes the importance of listening to customers as a key signal about when to pivot[10:10]
She advises proving a concept outside your immediate setting by sampling in stores, talking to store buyers, and testing response beyond your original environment[10:34]

Impact of social media on how Stacey might build today

Guy contrasts the 1990s, when people discovered her cart by word-of-mouth, with today when a food cart would likely need Instagram and other social accounts[10:57]
Stacey says if she were starting today she would have to be "a victim of the times" and meet people where they are online[11:19]
She believes it is hard to reach the current generation if you are not on their platforms like Instagram or TikTok, so social presence is now an important part of building a brand[11:42]

Caller 1: DoughGuy pizza steels and transitioning from creator to enduring brand

Sam introduces DoughGuy and product concept

Caller identifies himself as Sam Cagle from Utah, founder of DoughGuy[12:11]
Sam explains DoughGuy is an online community and e-commerce brand dedicated to homemade pizza making[12:18]
They provide tools, resources, and inspiration so anyone can make restaurant-quality pizza at home with a regular oven[12:26]
Their core product is a 16-by-16-inch pizza steel that functions like a pizza stone but made of steel[12:40]
Guy clarifies that you preheat the steel in a home oven and it helps approximate restaurant-style pizza[12:26]
Sam launched the business in late April of the current year, making it a recent startup[12:53]

Sam's personal journey into pizza and viral Dave Portnoy review

Sam says he always loved baking desserts and breads but had not focused on pizza[13:08]
In summer 2024 (described as last year in the episode context), he quit his job to become a stay-at-home dad and turned to homemade pizza to keep his sanity[13:13]
He started an Instagram page to document his pizza journey and discovered you do not need a fancy pizza oven to make great pizza at home[13:28]
In January he began a series where he made a pizza every day until he got a pizza review from Dave Portnoy[13:33]
Sam describes Dave Portnoy as the "pizza king" and acknowledges he is controversial, which helped the series gain traction[13:41]
Sam flew to Chicago and successfully got a review from Portnoy, which he says was the first homemade pizza and first pizza from Utah that Portnoy reviewed[13:57]
He had about two weeks' notice before the review went live and used that time to set up his company and manufacturer relationships because he had nothing ready[14:10]
Sam had expected his quest for a Portnoy review could take a year, not realizing Portnoy would quickly accept pizza from "any random guy"[14:32]
By the time the review came out he had launched the business, and after that he says he was off to the races[14:23]
Sam reports more than $300,000 in revenue since April launch[14:28]

Explaining the value of pizza steels versus pizza ovens

Guy notes he has had pizza ovens that reach 600-750°F, while home ovens usually max at 500-550°F[15:26]
He asks why someone would choose a steel over dedicated outdoor ovens like Ooni or cooking on a Big Green Egg[15:47]
Sam says steels are much cheaper and far more convenient for people living in apartments or limited spaces who cannot have outdoor ovens[15:58]
He explains pizza stones have existed for a long time but do not get quite hot enough to produce the characteristic char of New York-style pizza[16:17]
Pizza steels can preheat to 550+ degrees and retain heat very well, transferring it efficiently to the pizza[16:21]
Sam says this makes it easier to create high-quality pizzas at home in a standard oven[16:27]

Sam's audience, community, and differentiation

Sam notes he has built an Instagram community of about 130,000 followers since January[16:35]
He says followers are loyal to the DoughGuy brand and love content about pizza making[17:01]
His brand message is that pizza making should be simple, easy, and fun, and that anyone can do it[17:01]
Sam stresses that pizza is not a gatekept or overly hard skill and is fun to do with kids[17:01]

Sam's core question: moving from creator to scalable brand

Sam envisions DoughGuy becoming a full-fledged brand for all things baking, not just pizza[16:40]
Currently most momentum depends on him personally; he runs the entire operation and edits all content himself[16:46]
He asks how to scale so that the brand can thrive without him at the center of everything[17:46]

Stacey's advice: you are the value, stay in the spotlight for now

Stacey responds that Sam has tapped into the "secret sauce" of the internet by building a following[17:16]
She says many companies are trying to do what he has already accomplished with audience growth[17:25]
Stacey emphasizes that right now he is the value and "you can't go"-implying he cannot exit the front-facing role yet[18:41]
Sam agrees this makes sense, acknowledging his personal centrality to the brand[18:41]

Clarifying DoughGuy's long-term vision and male baking niche

Guy asks Sam to describe his "Barbie dream house" version of the company-what he'd be selling in 10 years[18:05]
Sam envisions DoughGuy covering all things pizza (cutting, launching tools, toppings like hot honey) as well as bread and dessert baking[18:16]
He notes his audience is mostly male and says there is no baking brand specifically targeted to men[18:27]
Sam believes there is a big market for men to get into sourdough baking and similar hobbies[19:32]

Timing of delegation and founder focus

Guy agrees with Stacey that it is too early for Sam to step back; he needs to remain "the guy" and do everything for a while[20:26]
Guy frames Sam's job as really establishing his steel as the go-to product in its space[19:49]
They mention that pizza ovens can cost several hundred dollars whereas Sam's steel retails at $119, highlighting its value[19:32]
Guy suggests Sam should consider featuring community content such as pizza fails, since many people mess up transferring pizzas from the peel[19:26]
Sam says followers tag him daily and he shares their creations but hasn't yet focused on fail content, which could be funny and relatable[19:49]
Stacey mentions she quit after making one disastrous pizza and jokes that she should stick to salad dressing, illustrating the need for demystification[20:26]

Pizza-making tips and using educational content to support the product

Guy explains that when making pizza on a peel, you have to keep shaking it to ensure the dough stays loose[20:32]
He recommends shaking after adding sauce, then cheese and toppings, and adding flour if it starts sticking
Sam confirms techniques like using semolina flour, limiting sauce, and shaking the peel are key to avoiding failures[20:53]
Stacey says Sam's explanations make her want to try making pizza again using a steel and watching his videos[22:00]
She concludes that Sam's brand is about making something delicious while keeping it simple, and suggests he think of other male-oriented simple baking ideas[22:50]
Guy and Stacey float ideas like cast iron brownies or outdoor cast iron desserts as compelling, masculine-coded baking projects[22:43]
Guy jokes that Utah pizza is the new standard, reinforcing Sam's geographic distinctiveness[24:00]

Caller 2: Suyo Pisco and balancing category education with brand building

Alex introduces Suyo Pisco and motivations

Caller identifies himself as Alex Hildebrandt, co-founder of Suyo Pisco, a spirits company focused on single-origin pisco[28:50]
He notes pisco is the national spirit of Peru and, by law, is made with only one ingredient: grapes[28:58]
Alex is from Peru and wanted to reconnect with his home country after spending most of his life in the U.S.[29:25]
He and his Peruvian best friend and now co-founder brainstormed ways to reconnect with their roots and landed on launching a pisco[29:44]
Alex does not come from a family of pisco producers; this was a new venture for them[29:41]

Basics of pisco and Suyo's launch timeline

Alex confirms that, like tequila or champagne, pisco has a denomination of origin and must be produced in specific regions of Peru in a specific way[30:27]
He reiterates you cannot distill grapes in California and call it pisco; it must come from Peru[30:21]
Suyo was launched in 2020 after starting the project in 2019[30:51]
Their first pallet arrived in the U.S. in late 2021 and they began selling in early 2022[30:56]
Alex explains they are geographically focused, selling primarily in New York and Boston, plus between San Francisco and LA in California at the request of their distributor[31:11]
He notes that with spirits, growth is complicated by state-by-state regulation[31:23]
About 80 percent of their sales year-to-date are in bars and restaurants, with 20 percent in liquor stores[31:28]
Alex expects Suyo will do a little over $400,000 in revenue this year[32:07]

Alex's core dilemma: educate about pisco or lead with Suyo

Alex describes how consumers often first decide on a category (e.g., vodka soda) and then a brand (e.g., Tito's)[32:41]
He contrasts that with brands like Hennessy that some consumers order by name without knowing it is a cognac[32:51]
Because pisco is relatively unknown, Alex is unsure how to prioritize educating consumers about the category versus building Suyo's brand awareness[33:11]

Stacey's bartender research and the idea of signature Suyo cocktails

Stacey says she went out the night before and ordered a pisco sour, asking the bartender what pisco they used to gauge his knowledge[34:01]
She asks Alex if there is a "Suyo Sour"-a signature cocktail named after his brand[34:19]
Alex says they actually lean away from the pisco sour despite its popularity because it involves egg white and is harder to make at home[34:25]
He explains they promote the Pisco Punch instead, a three-ingredient drink made with pisco, pineapple juice, and lime[35:05]
Alex likes Pisco Punch because if you can make a margarita you can make this drink; it is simple and home-friendly[35:17]
Stacey and Guy question whether they should incorporate the name Suyo into the cocktail's name[34:59]

Range of pisco serves and focusing the message

Alex lists other pisco serves, such as martinis where Suyo can substitute for vodka or gin, and highballs like pisco tonic[35:53]
He notes tonic's connection to Peru via quinine, providing a storytelling hook for pisco tonics[35:59]
He mentions the chilcano, a common Peruvian party drink made from pisco and ginger ale with lime, similar to a mule[36:15]
Alex acknowledges the many options are a double-edged sword and asks how to keep messaging simple while finding one breakout serve[35:31]

Advice: make Suyo the hero and embed it into cocktail names

Stacey argues Alex must bring the Suyo name into drinks, not just pisco generically[36:27]
She suggests guerrilla tactics like giving out free drink cards, coordinating with bars so ambassadors order a Suyo tonic and spark conversations with nearby patrons[36:53]
Guy notes that consumers rarely champion a category without a strong brand to rally behind[37:11]
He cites Aperol (Aperol spritz) and Patron (tequila) as examples where the brand name defines the drink order[37:22]
Guy suggests Alex has an opportunity to make Suyo synonymous with pisco for U.S. consumers because there is no established "Patron of pisco"[37:29]
He encourages naming cocktails Suyo tonic, Suyo punch, and Suyo sour, using brand-led naming as the tip of the spear[38:18]

Packaging, price point, and simplifying on-premise education

Guy is surprised to learn pisco is legally single-ingredient and suggests that could be a packaging message, such as emphasizing Peru's "best kept secret"[38:04]
They discuss bars paying roughly $30-33 per bottle of Suyo, leading to retail prices around $45[39:57]
Stacey voices concern that "punch" as a word may connote cheap or red party drinks and lower price expectations, which might undercut premium positioning[40:42]
Alex says they often conduct staff trainings at bars by first explaining what pisco is and then talking about Suyo[41:04]
He infers from Guy and Stacey that they may need to invert that approach-lead with Suyo, then explain that it is a pisco and what that means[41:07]
Guy reiterates that the market for pisco brands is wide open, unlike saturated categories such as tequila and gin[41:33]
He urges Alex to make people discover pisco through Suyo rather than the other way around[41:04]

Caller 3: Reviving Stucky's as a pecan snack and candy brand

Stephanie introduces Stucky's and its products

Caller identifies herself as Stephanie from Renz, Georgia, with the company Stucky's[43:43]
She says Stucky's makes pecan snacks and candies and is best known for the pecan log roll using her grandmother's recipe[43:56]
Stephanie notes they have been making the pecan log roll since 1937 and refers to the business as an "88-year-old startup"[44:01]
They also make pralines and "gophers" (caramel, pecans, and chocolate), dark and white chocolate pecans, and various flavored pecans including roasted, honey roasted, kettle glazed, and bourbon[44:24]

History of Stucky's roadside empire and decline

Stephanie is an attorney by background who worked as a public defender, state representative, and head of sustainability for the city of Atlanta[44:49]
About five years ago she got a phone call that the company her grandfather had founded and sold was for sale and losing money[44:54]
Her grandfather started Stucky's as a roadside pecan stand in 1937[45:05]
Customers loved his snacks and candies but asked for restrooms and gas, which led him to build a gas station that sold snacks, kitschy souvenirs, and provided clean restrooms[45:20]
At its peak Stucky's had 370 stores in 40 states, plus a candy company, trucking company, and billboard company, becoming synonymous with American road-tripping[45:33]
Her grandfather sold the company in 1964 but stayed involved until the mid-1970s[46:00]
Stacey recalls stopping at Stucky's on a cross-country trip as a 13-year-old, confirming the chain's prominence[46:12]
Stephanie says when the company came up for sale again it was six figures in the red and described as a "hot mess"[46:22]
She bought Stucky's for $500,000, using her life savings[46:49]

Pivot from struggling retail chain to manufacturing-focused pecan brand

Initially she bought back the brand intending to revive the roadside model but realized it was not working and they were sinking further into debt[46:51]
After about a year she brought in business partners and decided to reinvent Stucky's as a pecan snack and candy company, echoing its original roots[47:03]
They bought a manufacturing facility, shifting from outsourced production with Mexican pecans to controlling production and using domestic pecans[47:18]
Stephanie highlights that pecans are the only snack nut native to the United States and that Georgia grows more pecans than anywhere else in the world[47:28]
She points out the irony that Georgia is called the Peach State rather than the Pecan State[47:31]

Current distribution, scale, and financial realities

Stucky's products are in about 4,000 doors nationwide, including farm and hardware stores, some convenience stores, and grocery chains like Food Lion and Ingles[48:03]
They have launched in select Walmart locations and Sam's Club[48:08]
The company employs 65 people and is the largest employer in Renz, Georgia[48:14]
Sales have grown from $2 million to $10 million, but manufacturing is capital-intensive and they pay employees well, including raises and insurance after buying the plant[49:11]
Guy notes that despite $10 million sounding large, those costs mean Stephanie is not simply "rolling in pecan dough"[49:26]

Stephanie's question: positioning pecans and Stucky's against big nut brands

Stephanie says the snack nut market is dominated by big-budget brands pushing pistachios, cashews, almonds, and peanuts[49:58]
She asks how to position Stucky's and pecans as a distinctive must-have for a new generation that did not grow up stopping at Stucky's[50:16]
They are getting on shelves but need to figure out how to move product off the shelf[50:41]

Stacey's assessment: focus on core customers and manage SKUs

Stacey says she personally does not eat peanuts and prefers pecans, identifying as an ideal customer[50:44]
She observes that Stucky's has a lot of SKUs, from rolls to different flavored pecans, raising complexity[50:44]
Stephanie clarifies they maintain a core line of seven items for mass distribution despite broader variety[50:26]
They discuss placement: nut aisle, candy aisle, center store, and ideally impulse sections near the register[51:01]
Stephanie says the pecan log roll is their top seller, and she estimates buyers are mostly age 50 and up who recognize the brand[51:22]
Stacey recommends first "flooding" the current older population who remember Stucky's, treating them as the core market[51:34]
Her idea is to fully tap the existing fan base before expanding aggressively into new demographics[52:06]

Debate over modernizing through protein positioning and brand refresh

They note the pecan log roll has a 7-month shelf life and bagged pecans 12 months[52:11]
Guy raises the broader trend of people focusing on protein and wonders aloud about repositioning pecans as plant-based protein[53:21]
He suggests doubling down on what sells best (log rolls) while also considering messaging like "America's first protein bar" or "the original" natural snack[53:40]
Guy mentions the possibility of packaging Stucky's as America's first protein snack delivering plant-based protein since the early days[53:40]
He also floats expansion ideas like pecan butter, pecan milk, pecan ice cream, or pecan coffee as potential future directions[53:19]
Stephanie says they already sell pecan milk in their candy outlet store (though not made in-house) and finds it very tasty[54:18]
She mentions someone suggested adding protein powder to the pecan log roll to create a protein bar variant[54:06]
Stacey asks how many grams of protein the current bar has and Stephanie says two grams[54:57]
Stacey argues against modifying the successful log roll recipe to chase the protein bar trend, saying people already like the existing product[55:32]
She draws a parallel to being asked to make gluten-free pita chips, which did not fit the core product's nature[55:57]
Stacey emphasizes authenticity and warns against changing foundational recipes just to fit trends[55:52]

Balancing heritage branding with reaching younger consumers

Guy notes Stucky's branding leans into nostalgia with a retro 1940s-1950s look[55:25]
He suggests possibly keeping the classic logo but experimenting with a more modern refresh to attract younger shoppers while retaining older customers[56:31]
Guy describes an example from another brand, David Bars, where selling frozen cod under the bar brand became a marketing tool to highlight protein content[57:14]
He says sometimes a weird, unexpected product extension can function as a conversation starter rather than a core revenue source[57:32]
Stacey suggests a pecan coating or meal for fish as a crossover product, leveraging Stucky's pecans in a new context like prepared fish[57:32]
She reiterates the importance of always pairing the company name with the core ingredient, like "Stucky's Pecans," just as "Stacey's Pita Chips" did[57:53]
Guy and Stephanie agree they need to both keep core older customers loyal and deliberately cultivate a younger demographic through fun, attention-getting experiments[59:45]
Guy frames the goal as getting people talking about the brand in ways that naturally highlight the core pecan offerings[59:53]

Closing reflections and sign-off

Stacey's appreciation and reference to original episode

Guy thanks Stacey for coming back on the show; Stacey says it was great being there[1:00:16]
Guy encourages listeners to check out Stacey's original How I Built This episode, noting that many listeners cite it as a favorite[1:00:24]
He plays a brief clip where Stacey recalls hand-cutting pita bread and a snack executive doubting they could ever scale the product[1:00:40]

Listener call-to-action and production credits

Guy invites listeners to sign up for his newsletter at his website and to pitch their own businesses for future Advice Line episodes via voice memo or phone[1:01:26]
He lists the production staff, editor, and audio engineer responsible for the episode[1:01:51]

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Customer behavior is your most reliable guide for when a side project should become your main business: listen for repeated requests, willingness to pay, and enthusiasm beyond your initial context before you pivot.

Reflection Questions:

  • What products or services in my work are customers repeatedly asking for, even if I currently treat them as side offerings?
  • How could I test one of my "side projects" outside its original environment to see if demand holds up with new customers?
  • What specific customer signals will I track over the next three months to decide whether to double down or walk away from a new idea?
2

For creator-led brands, the founder often is the primary value early on, so the smart move is to stay visible while systematically delegating everything that doesn't require your unique voice or presence.

Reflection Questions:

  • Which parts of my business truly require me personally, and which could be handled just as well by someone else with clear guidance?
  • How might my growth accelerate if I hired or outsourced one or two time-consuming tasks that don't leverage my unique strengths?
  • What concrete steps can I take this month to document and hand off at least one recurring operational responsibility?
3

When building an unfamiliar product category, it is usually more effective to lead with a distinctive brand and one or two simple signature uses than to rely on abstract education about the category as a whole.

Reflection Questions:

  • In my own offering, what is the simplest, most compelling "hero use case" that I could name and promote consistently?
  • Where am I overwhelming potential customers with explanations about my space instead of giving them an easy way to experience my brand?
  • What is one brand-led experiment (like a signature product name or flagship experience) I could launch in the next quarter to make my value instantly recognizable?
4

Heritage and nostalgic brands can grow fastest by first serving their core loyal demographic extremely well, then layering in selective experiments to attract new generations without betraying what existing fans love.

Reflection Questions:

  • Who are the people who already recognize and love my brand, and how could I deepen my relationship with them before chasing new audiences?
  • In what ways might updating my branding or product line risk alienating core customers, and how could I minimize that risk while still evolving?
  • What one small, low-risk experiment could I run to test a younger or different audience without changing my core product or identity?
5

Chasing every trend-whether it's protein claims, new channels, or social platforms-can dilute a product's authenticity; instead, anchor innovation in your existing strengths and what your products are naturally great at.

Reflection Questions:

  • Where am I considering changes to my product or positioning mainly because a trend is popular, rather than because it fits my core strengths?
  • How could I highlight the natural advantages of my current product (ingredients, story, functionality) instead of bolting on features that don't fit?
  • What is one trendy idea I've been tempted by that I should consciously say no to, and what more authentic initiative could I pursue instead?

Episode Summary - Notes by Skylar

Advice Line with Stacy Madison of Stacy's Pita Chips
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