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How I Built This with Guy Raz

Advice Line with Michael Dubin of Dollar Shave Club

with Michael Dubin, Benita Casbo, Brandon Davis, Bria Fleming

Published October 9, 2025
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About This Episode

Host Guy Raz speaks with Dollar Shave Club founder Michael Dubin, who shares what he has been working on since selling his company, including writing a screenplay, advisory and board work, exploring new company ideas, and starting a wildfire-focused nonprofit. Together they field calls from three entrepreneurs: a founder launching Syrian cheese into U.S. grocery stores, a mobile mini-golf business owner scaling service quality through employees, and a former wildland firefighter making custom fire uniforms who is struggling with production capacity and growth. Dubin and Raz offer practical advice on marketing in a noisy digital world, brand storytelling, customer experience, hiring and incentives, and when and how to think about fundraising and manufacturing partnerships.

Topics Covered

Entrepreneurship Marketing and customer education Branding and naming Direct-to-consumer brands Scrappiness in business Hiring philosophy Customer service Small business financing Personal Development Work ethic

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • Viral creative can still break through today's crowded media environment, but the attention wave is shorter and must be sustained with ongoing efforts.
  • Disrupting an incumbent-dominated category still comes down to a "boring" formula of great product, differentiated distribution, and compelling communication.
  • When launching an unfamiliar food product, you must both lower the usage barrier with clear, simple applications and aggressively sample to drive trial.
  • For service businesses, systematizing hospitality via hiring for attitude, training, and written standards is as important as the core product itself.
  • If you want employees to care about customer experience like an owner, you need to align incentives through equity, development, or meaningful rewards.
  • Founders often underinvest in their own life balance; intentionally creating space outside the business can reduce anxiety without sacrificing ambition.
  • Niche B2B makers who outgrow solo production should explore both higher-margin product lines and raising capital to fund manufacturing scale.
  • Investing in employees' long-term growth-even knowing they will eventually leave-can increase engagement and performance while they are with you.
  • A strong origin story and lived experience in a field can be powerful assets when pitching investors or partners, especially in mission-driven markets.

Podcast Notes

Introduction to the Advice Line episode and show format

Guy Raz explains the Advice Line concept

Advice Line is a segment where founders call in with business challenges[3:05]
• Entrepreneurs describe their business and issues in a one-minute message and get live advice from Guy and a guest mentor
Instructions for listeners who want to participate[3:13]
• Listeners can call 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message about their business and questions
• Alternatively, they can send a voice memo via a specific email-style URL and must include contact details

Mention of Guy Raz's newsletter

Guy promotes his free newsletter about insights and ideas from entrepreneurs[3:39]
• Listeners can sign up at his personal site or on Substack, with links included in the podcast description

Reintroduction of guest Michael Dubin and his background

Guy recaps Michael Dubin's original How I Built This appearance

Michael first appeared on the show in 2018 at a live event in Los Angeles[4:01]
• The live interview took place at the Ace Theater in LA
Guy summarizes Dollar Shave Club's origin and success[4:20]
• Michael unexpectedly came into a large quantity of razors stored in a California warehouse
• He leveraged eight years of marketing experience and a background in improv to launch Dollar Shave Club
• He produced a humorous, widely remembered promotional video that helped the brand take off
• In 2016, Dollar Shave Club was acquired by Unilever, reportedly for $1 billion
Guy notes Michael's tenure post-acquisition and later activities[4:26]
• Michael stayed with Dollar Shave Club for about 10 years total, roughly half as an independent company and half under Unilever ownership
• After leaving, Michael became an investor and advisor to other companies, including Liquid Death

Michael Dubin's personal and professional update

Michael describes writing a screenplay[5:13]
• He had always wanted to write a screenplay and recently completed one
• He finished the script late in the previous year and received strong feedback from trusted readers
• The screenplay draws on both his personal and professional experiences
• He hopes that, if the "script gods" approve, he will be able to produce it
Michael discusses his current work and future startup ambitions[5:50]
• He continues to do board work and advisory work for companies
• He is brainstorming and "noodling" a few new company ideas
• He feels ready to jump back into building another business but emphasizes it has to be the right idea

Discussion: Marketing, virality, and cutting through the noise today

Guy contrasts the 2012 internet with today's environment

Guy references Dollar Shave Club's viral video and notes the web is very different now[6:12]
• He points out that when the DSC video launched, the internet was less saturated and the influencer concept was not mainstream

Michael's view on whether viral breakthroughs are still possible

He describes the earlier marketing ecosystem as "primitive" compared to today[6:55]
• He notes that the influencer economy and ecosystem have since "exploded"
• He says there are now countless "nodes" constantly pushing out content to billions of people
Conditions for cutting through the noise in the current era[7:12]
• Michael believes you can still break through if the content is truly original
• He emphasizes the importance of authenticity
• He says the content must strike a chord-emotional or humorous-to resonate
Difference in the duration of viral waves now vs. then[7:23]
• Michael thinks the biggest difference is that a viral "wave" does not last as long today
• There is so much content that even a successful piece is more quickly displaced in attention
Hypothetical: launching the DSC video in today's ecosystem[7:35]
• He notes that the video's tone is from a different time, but imagines a hypothetical adjusted launch
• He believes it would still break through the noise, though he concedes he could be wrong
• He is confident the viral wave would be shorter and would require more work to sustain with follow-up efforts

Discussion: Competing in saturated categories dominated by incumbents

Guy frames Dollar Shave Club vs. Gillette and Schick

He notes the razor category was dominated by Gillette, and to a lesser extent Schick, when DSC emerged[8:11]
• He asks whether launching into an industry controlled by a big player is still possible or wise

Michael's perspective on entering markets with giant incumbents

He answers whether it is "crazy" to try to enter such markets[8:36]
• He says it is probably crazy-but adds that does not mean you shouldn't try
He believes major consumer disruptors have yet to be launched[8:49]
• He asserts that "the last great consumer giant disruptor" has not yet been started
• He expects new disruptive companies to continue emerging regularly
Michael's "boring" formula for success[8:58]
• He reduces the core of success to a combination of great product, great distribution, and great communication
• He describes this as a relatively "boring" but effective formula
Reverse engineering DSC's success[9:10]
• He says DSC had a strong product
• Its distribution was unique at the time, coming at the early wave of belief that direct-to-consumer (DTC) would "eat the world"
• He notes that DTC did not ultimately "eat the world" as many believed, but that belief helped at the time
• DSC also had a unique, captivating voice in its marketing, which contributed to the video's impact

Caller 1: Launching a Syrian cheese brand into U.S. retail

Introduction of caller and her business

Benita introduces herself and Casbo's Middle Eastern Kitchen[10:01]
• She is based in Chatham, New Jersey and is founder and owner of Casbo's Middle Eastern Kitchen
• Her brand focuses on heritage Middle Eastern foods with authentic flavors and unique ingredients
• Her first product is Syrian cheese, a traditional cheese eaten throughout the Middle East, set to launch across all New York City stores of a major grocery chain
Guy recognizes Benita as a longtime listener and supporter[10:24]
• He notes she has been commenting and engaging with the show for about ten years

Explaining the Syrian cheese product

Benita describes ingredients and flavor profile[10:24]
• The cheese is cow's milk based; she purchases curd from a curd producer
• The curd is rolled in salt and cooked with a Middle Eastern spice called mahlab
• Mahlab comes from seeds of cherry pits that grow only in the Middle East and gives the cheese a distinctive flavor
• The cheese tastes salty overall, with a slightly sweet center
Texture and usage characteristics[11:44]
• Benita says it is texturally between feta and halloumi and in the same flavor family
• Unlike halloumi, it cannot be placed directly on a grill
• It slices and melts extremely well without becoming oily and can achieve a long "cheese pull" when melted

Benita's origin story and business progress

How Syrian refugee work led to the product idea[12:27]
• In 2017 she got involved with Syrian refugees settling in New Jersey, serving as a translator and dinner coordinator
• During that time a cheesemaker tried her product, wanted to buy the recipe, and encouraged her to pursue it when she declined to sell
Industry connection before the pandemic[12:59]
• She met someone in the cheese industry who offered to help her make connections when she was ready
Transition from pharma to full-time cheese entrepreneur[12:39]
• During the pandemic she was at home and went "full force" into launching the product
• She found a commercial kitchen, leveraged her network, and got the product into a few stores
• She previously worked in pharmaceutical sales and marketing, at one point sampling pharmaceutical products early in the week and cheese later in the week
• She is now full-time on the cheese business

Benita's marketing question

She seeks guerrilla-style marketing ideas for launch[13:57]
• She wants an impactful, grassroots strategy that creates excitement and attention in the specialty cheese case
She also wants a digital marketing rollout beyond social media[14:09]
• She is looking for a separate digital campaign to drive awareness and conversion that is not just social content

Michael and Guy's advice on educating consumers and positioning Syrian cheese

Michael's clarifying questions about product use[14:18]
• He asks what consumers should put the cheese on: pizza, sandwiches, eating it plain, etc.
• He asks whether this creates a whole new usage behavior or fits into familiar meals
Benita's planned on-pack education[15:13]
• She has created recipe cards and will use a dynamic QR code on packaging
• Scanning the QR code will show a video of her explaining simple pairing ideas that change the taste depending on accompaniments
• She cites examples such as tomato-cucumber sandwiches on toasted bagels and melted cheese in pita bread with mint, Aleppo pepper, and olive oil
Michael's emphasis on lowering the usage barrier[14:28]
• He likes products most people haven't heard of because they represent a big opportunity
• He notes the challenge that consumers don't know the product and therefore don't know how to use it
• He recommends making it easy to incorporate into what customers already cook-pizza, sandwiches, wine pairings-so they don't have to "reinvent the wheel"
• He suggests clearly explaining whether the form factor is slices, crumbles, or another familiar shape and coaching people on use through QR content and in-store sampling
Brand storytelling and mascot ideas[15:20]
• Michael suggests a playful campaign built around the idea that "everyone knows the best cheese comes from Syria"
• He imagines angry French or Spanish cheese experts as characters upset that the secret of Syrian cheese is getting out
• He proposes using mascots or costumes, including possibly a Syrian cheese costume, during in-store sampling for visual impact
• He references the broader idea of bringing back memorable brand mascots as part of marketing

Guy's focus on sampling and local press

Sampling as a primary driver of trial[16:54]
• Guy stresses that Benita will need to "sample the hell out of this" for at least a year, including weekends and weeknights
• He suggests trying different serving methods such as pairing with honey on crackers
• He notes New York City as an advantage because trends often start there and many consumers are adventurous
• He recommends a message like "meet the Middle Eastern cheese you've never tried but are about to fall in love with" to frame sampling interactions
Leveraging media coverage and restaurant validation[17:19]
• Guy urges Benita to lean into local food press in New York, such as food sites and magazines that look for new category stories
• Benita shares that she has already been featured in The New York Times by Florence Fabricant and should resurface that coverage
• She is also the cheesemaker for a high-end Middle Eastern restaurant in New York City, where a food critic singled out a Syrian cheese appetizer as her favorite

Packaging and design as critical components

Michael stresses importance of packaging[18:19]
• He says packaging and sampling strategy are two things she "has to get right"
• He offers to review her packaging when ready if she reaches out via LinkedIn
Benita's current design process[18:56]
• She is working with an agency, starting with logo design and moving to packaging soon

Lighthearted riff on French mascot concept

Guy and Michael imagine the French cheesemaker character[18:42]
• They describe a stereotypical French cheesemaker with a beret, red scarf, mustache, and a loud, angry demeanor
• They reiterate that his anger is because the secret of Syrian cheese is out, suggesting this as a potential brand mascot

Caller 2: Scaling customer experience for a mobile mini-golf business

Introduction of Brandon and PARS Mobile Mini Golf

Brandon explains the concept[26:42]
• He and his wife run PARS Mobile Mini Golf out of Vista, California in San Diego County
• They bring a full mini golf course to parties and events, needing only a flat surface
• They supply putters and balls and aim for a high-end look suitable for black-tie weddings and corporate events, while also fitting backyard barbecues
Primary clientele and origin story[27:46]
• Their biggest clients are weddings and corporate events, often using the course during cocktail hours and receptions to help guests mingle
• Brandon loved mini golf as a child and once wanted to own a permanent immersive course, but he and his wife lacked capital
• They brainstormed making it mobile instead, leveraging their woodworking and design backgrounds, and built the first version in their carport
Relocation, team, and revenue[27:56]
• They started in Utah but moved the business to California, believing it was a better market and moving with their three children
• They now do better revenue in California than they did in Utah
• Brandon's wife is returning to work as an exhibit designer for the San Diego Natural History Museum, and Brandon will run PARS full-time
• They have two delivery leads who run separate routes and a pool of gig workers to assist
• They are projected to hit over $200,000 in revenue this year, which Brandon finds mind-boggling given its carport origins

Brandon's question: maintaining client experience through employees

He contrasts product vs. interaction[29:52]
• He notes that niche event businesses rely both on the core product and on the quality of client interaction and experience
Challenge with scaling via employees[29:20]
• As volume grows and employees attend more events, he wonders how to ensure they bring the same level of client interaction and experience as he and his wife do
• He is concerned employees might not have the same emotional investment or "skin in the game"

Michael's advice: incentives, equity, and development

Universal founder challenge of transferring ownership mentality[29:34]
• Michael says every entrepreneur faces the question of how to get others to care as much as they do about the business and customer experience
Using equity to align incentives[29:44]
• He suggests creating an equity pool for employees, especially the best and most loyal ones
• By giving them a share of the company, they can feel pride of ownership and share in success beyond wages and tips
Investing in employee development[30:10]
• Michael notes that employees do not expect a lifelong relationship with the company, nor should founders
• He recommends helping employees leave with new skills and capabilities (e.g., A, B, C) that will serve them in their future careers
• Positioning the job as a developmental step can increase engagement and commitment while they are there

Guy's advice: define hospitality standards and hire for attitude

Creating a "brand bible" for client experience[30:00]
• Guy recounts how a founder of a bike company turned around his business after being inspired by another firm's brand bible
• He suggests Brandon write a customer service manifesto, even just a few pages, defining how PARS creates joyful experiences
• The document could include checklists for greeting, responding, smiling, and managing different touchpoints at events
Reframing PARS as a hospitality business[30:44]
• Guy emphasizes that Brandon is not just in the mini golf business; he is in the hospitality and experience business
• He compares PARS to restaurants, where food supports conversations and memories, and service quality elevates the experience
• At weddings, guests might remember the mini golf as part of what made it "the best wedding ever"
Hiring for attitude rather than narrow skills[32:03]
• Guy argues Brandon should primarily seek people with the right attitude, not specific technical skills
• He recommends looking for people who have worked in hospitality and love bringing joy to others
• He notes that not everyone (including himself) is naturally cheerful all the time, so selection matters
Using feedback and rewards to reinforce standards[32:19]
• Guy suggests asking clients for short feedback after events, focusing on rating the experience
• He proposes rewarding employees who earn strong praise with meaningful gift cards and public recognition
• He also stresses that employees should shadow Brandon and his wife initially to see how they operate and go the extra mile

Michael's notes on interviewing and long-term vision

Asking candidates why they want the job[33:08]
• Michael encourages Brandon to ask applicants what they want from the job and how he can help them get it
• He advises paying close attention to answers and avoiding hires who view it as just a paycheck
Exploring future product and marketing ideas[33:19]
• Michael asks if people can buy the kit outright; currently PARS only rents, though customers have asked about purchases
• He notes the home-use product could differ from the event product, potentially opening a new market
• He suggests building a permanent or semi-permanent mini golf installation (e.g., in botanical gardens or a warehouse showroom) as a marketing "tent pole" and paid attraction

Caller 3: Scaling custom wildland firefighter uniforms

Introduction of Bria and Incidental Wildland

Bria describes her business focus[41:47]
• She is based in the Flint Hills of Kansas and runs Incidental Wildland LLC
• Her company manufactures custom uniforms for wildland firefighters

Bria's background and product specifics

How she entered wildland fire and discovered the problem[42:07]
• She graduated during a recession with a costume construction background and joined AmeriCorps due to a weak job market
• She worked on a fire team doing prescribed burns in western Iowa for a conservation organization
• She later moved into fire suppression, but noticed that issued uniforms fit poorly, especially for women
Technical aspects of standard uniforms[42:07]
• Standard materials are aramid or para-aramid, known by the brand name Nomex, often with Kevlar components in pants
• The fabric self-extinguishes when it catches fire and is designed to expand under heat to protect skin from radiant heat
Fit problem rooted in standards[42:49]
• The NFPA standard includes a size chart that dictates an excessive amount of wearing ease
• She explains that normal garments add some ease beyond body measurements, but the mandated excess makes uniforms feel like working in an oversized duffel bag
Who buys her uniforms and what she makes[43:05]
• Most clients purchase uniforms with a company card or get reimbursed; some pay out of pocket, which she believes shouldn't be necessary
• She serves women and men and also produces small accessories like utility wallets and tool pouches

Bria's scaling challenge

She has more demand than she can personally fulfill[43:40]
• She has been in business nine years and describes it as slow, often reinventing wheels unnecessarily and creating a "day job" for herself
• Now demand exceeds what she can produce alone, and she feels unsure where to focus first in scaling

Michael's assessment: capital, manufacturing partners, and accessories

Need for funding and production support[44:02]
• Michael calls the space she works in "cool" and notes his personal interest through a wildfire nonprofit he started
• He says demand is not her problem; instead, she needs to raise money to hire staff or build manufacturing partnerships
• He asks whether she has found manufacturing partners who can produce to her specifications
Bria's current partial scaling steps[44:40]
• She now has a part-time employee, a couple of contract sewists, and uses a contract cut-and-sew company in Kansas City
• These arrangements work technically, but she notes she can only directly pay herself for sewing work; if she outsources sewing, her own income disappears under current margins
Exploring accessories for better margins[45:59]
• Michael suggests doubling down on accessories, which may be more scalable and higher-margin than full uniforms
• Bria agrees accessories have better margins and are more scalable but says she lacks experience with B2B sales and approaching retailers

Discussion of fundraising and broader vision

Michael's encouragement to raise capital[45:28]
• He asks if she has ever raised money; she says no but is open to trying
• He believes she has a "big idea" with critical social impact and early traction, and needs time and cash to explore factories and supply chain options
• He suggests she could potentially raise from traditional investors and from people who support public-good initiatives, because better gear for wildland firefighters serves a public interest
Guy's note on expanding beyond firefighting[46:54]
• Guy observes that to attract certain investors, the long-term vision might need to extend beyond firefighting uniforms to other workwear fields
Domestic vs. overseas production trade-offs[46:29]
• Guy notes Bria currently emphasizes American-made production but wonders if ethically sourced overseas production could one day help reduce costs
• Bria says she has not really considered overseas production but would not dismiss it if it made sense and could be done ethically

Connecting to wildfire mitigation and policy work

Michael's nonprofit background[46:39]
• Michael mentions that during the pandemic he started a wildfire nonprofit that does lobbying, fuel mitigation, and forest management work
• He suggests there could be synergies between Bria's work and organizations involved in wildfire issues

Closing reflections with Michael Dubin

Michael's motivation for starting a wildfire nonprofit

Personal exposure to wildfire risk[57:18]
• Living in the western U.S., he says everyone eventually collides with the wildfire issue or knows someone affected by it
• After stepping down as CEO of Dollar Shave Club in January 2021, he was looking for a new challenge and was smoked out of a vacation by wildfire
• He went deep into learning about wildfire, policy, and forest management, which led him to start his nonprofit
Benefits of working in an unfamiliar domain[57:31]
• He acknowledges wildfire policy was outside his wheelhouse but is glad he pursued it
• The work has connected him to people in the U.S. Forest Service and other policy thinkers

Advice Michael would give his early-founder self

Personal-side advice: balance and presence[58:42]
• He says his advice would largely be personal, as he was consumed with making the business successful
• He feels that focus pulled him away from being fully present in other parts of his life
• He would encourage his past self to "take it as it comes" and create more personal time and space for other life areas
• He loved the invigorating journey and even the sleepless nights, but believes this advice might have reduced some anxiety
Professional-side advice: trust and letting go[59:26]
• He always found it easy to trust experts in areas outside his own experience, like finance, supply chain, and operations
• It was harder to let go of tasks in marketing and other fields close to his own skills as the team grew
• He would advise himself to learn to trust others even in his core competency areas in order to scale properly

Episode wrap-up and call for future callers

Guy invites listeners to hear Michael's original episode[1:00:15]
• He directs listeners to the show notes for a link and plays a favorite clip about a humorous $100 check incident with DSC's first investor
Instructions for submitting future advice questions[1:01:47]
• Guy repeats that listeners can send a voice memo to the provided address or leave a voicemail at 1-800-433-1298 and should include contact info
Credits and production details[1:01:38]
• Guy lists the producer, editor, audio engineer, production staff, and composer involved in the episode

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Breaking through in a crowded market still relies on a simple formula: build a genuinely strong product, find or create differentiated distribution, and communicate with a distinct, authentic voice that resonates emotionally or humorously.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which of these three elements-product strength, distribution, or communication-is currently your weakest link, and what specific step could you take to fortify it in the next 30 days?
  • • How might you sharpen your brand voice so that it feels more authentic and memorable to your ideal customers rather than generic or safe?
  • • Where could you experiment with a new distribution channel or format that your competitors are not yet fully exploiting?
2

When introducing an unfamiliar product, your marketing should lower the cognitive and behavioral barrier by showing people how it fits seamlessly into what they already do, while aggressively driving trial through sampling or hands-on experiences.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What are three concrete, familiar use-cases you could highlight that would make your product feel instantly understandable to a new customer?
  • • In what ways could you redesign your sampling or demo strategy so that potential customers experience your product in its "best light" rather than just hearing about it?
  • • Where could you add simple instructions, recipes, or examples (on packaging, online, or in-person) that would help customers feel confident using your product right away?
3

In service businesses, your real product is the experience; to scale that experience, you must codify your standards, hire primarily for attitude and hospitality mindset, and align incentives so employees feel ownership over the outcome.

Reflection Questions:

  • • If you had to write a one-page "experience manifesto" for your business, what specific behaviors and standards would you include for every customer interaction?
  • • How could you adjust your hiring process to better screen for warmth, enthusiasm, and service orientation rather than just technical ability?
  • • What simple recognition or reward system could you implement this month to consistently reinforce the client behaviors you most want your team to embody?
4

As a maker or technical founder, clinging to doing all the production yourself limits growth; at some point, you need to explore higher-margin offerings, partnerships, or external capital so you can shift more of your time to design, strategy, and sales.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which parts of your current workload truly require your unique skills, and which could be delegated or outsourced if you had the right systems or partners in place?
  • • How might your business change if you deliberately focused the majority of your time on higher-leverage activities like product design, partnerships, and business development instead of hands-on production?
  • • What initial steps could you take in the next quarter to test working with a manufacturing partner, freelancer, or small funding round to free up your bandwidth?
5

Founders who want sustainable careers must learn to trust others with responsibilities-even in their areas of expertise-and deliberately protect personal time, or the business will consume their attention at the expense of health and relationships.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where are you currently having trouble letting go of control, especially in areas where you are highly skilled, and what small experiment in delegation could you try?
  • • How is your current level of personal time and presence with family or friends affecting your energy and decision-making as a founder?
  • • What specific boundaries (time blocks, days off, communication rules) could you put in place over the next month to safeguard your non-work life while still supporting your business goals?

Episode Summary - Notes by Kendall

Advice Line with Michael Dubin of Dollar Shave Club
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