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The Mel Robbins Podcast

Use Your Mind to Heal Your Body With the #1 Harvard Psychologist

with Ellen Langer

Published October 2, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

Mel Robbins interviews Harvard psychology professor Ellen Langer about her 50 years of research on mindfulness and what she calls mind-body unity. Langer explains how mindlessness underlies many personal and health problems, and how simple shifts in attention, language, and expectations can measurably change physical outcomes like vision, wound healing, blood pressure, and chronic disease symptoms. Through anecdotes and landmark studies, she offers practical ways to question rigid beliefs, reduce stress, and actively notice variability so that people can add more life to their years and influence their own health trajectories.

Topics Covered

Mindfulness Perception Stress management Aging Chronic pain Immune system Mental health Personal Development Placebo effect Trauma

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Quick Takeaways

  • Langer argues that most of our problems are direct or indirect results of mindlessness, and that becoming mindful is far easier and more accessible than people think.
  • She rejects mind-body dualism and proposes mind-body unity, showing through experiments that thoughts and expectations can alter vision, wound healing, blood sugar, and physical strength.
  • Mindfulness, as she defines it, is not meditation but active noticing of new things and embracing uncertainty, which naturally increases engagement, energy, and well-being.
  • Our beliefs about aging, illness, and ability often become self-fulfilling prophecies, whereas reframing experiences (for example, seeing work as exercise or cancer as "cured" rather than "in remission") can change health outcomes and stress levels.
  • Stress is produced by our view of events, not the events themselves, and can be reduced by questioning predictions, looking for advantages in outcomes, and paying attention to symptom variability.
  • You can never truly compare alternative life decisions, so Langer suggests making any choice and then "making it right" by finding the benefits and engaging fully in that path.
  • Regret, procrastination, and defensive pessimism are all forms of mindlessness that dissolve when you understand that events are not inherently good or bad and that everything can be reframed.
  • A practical entry point into mindfulness is to notice three new things about familiar people, places, or activities, and to regularly ask, "Who says it has to be done this way?"

Podcast Notes

Introduction and framing of the episode

Mel introduces the central question about thoughts affecting physical health

Hypothetical benefits of mindset shifts on health[0:13]
• Mel asks what if a simple mindset shift could boost energy, enhance recovery, charge the immune system, speed healing, and slow aging
Introducing Dr. Ellen Langer and her claim[0:32]
• Mel says Dr. Langer, a pioneering Harvard professor with 50 years of research, argues that "your body follows what your mind believes"
• Mel notes Langer is confident and armed with science that shows the mind is "driving the car" of our physical experience

Promise of practical application for listeners

Empowerment message[1:01]
• Mel emphasizes that listeners are more powerful than they know and will learn how to use their mind to heal their body and live a happier, healthier life from the inside out

Formal welcome and guest introduction

Mel welcomes new and returning listeners

Invitation into the "Mel Robbins Podcast family"[3:59]
• Mel acknowledges long-time and new listeners and personally welcomes those who had the episode shared with them

Dr. Ellen Langer's credentials and achievements

Academic background and Harvard tenure[4:19]
• Langer earned her PhD from Yale and became the first female professor ever tenured in the psychology department at Harvard
Publications and honors[4:40]
• She has authored 12 books, including "The Mindful Body: Thinking Our Way to Chronic Health"
• Her awards include a Guggenheim Fellowship, three Distinguished Scientist Awards, and the Liberty Science Genius Award
Core thesis about mindfulness[4:40]
• Mel says Langer believes "mindfulness is medicine" and will teach how to unlock the power of thought to heal the body

Opening question: what might change for the listener

Langer's bold claim about mindlessness causing problems[6:04]
• She distinguishes doing anything (podcasting, reading, eating, childcare, tennis) either mindfully or mindlessly, with enormous consequences
• She references a lecture slide stating that virtually all personal, interpersonal, professional, and global problems are direct or indirect consequences of mindlessness
• She privately believes it is actually all problems, not just "virtually all"
Promise of change through mindfulness[6:10]
• If people understand how easy it is to become more mindful, she believes whatever ails them should dissipate

Early experiences that led Langer to study mind-body unity

Story 1: Honeymoon in Paris and the "pancreas" incident

Misidentifying food and making herself sick[7:00]
• As a very young newlywed in Paris, she ordered a mixed grill that included pancreas and asked her husband to identify it
• Believing she "had" to eat it to be sophisticated, she ate what she thought was pancreas and literally became sick
• Her husband laughed and revealed she had just eaten chicken she loved, and the pancreas had been consumed earlier without issue
• She concludes she "made herself sick" based on her belief about what she was eating

Story 2: Her mother's pancreatic cancer disappearance

Crippling illness and unexpected recovery[7:37]
• Her mother had breast cancer that metastasized to her pancreas, which Langer calls "the end game"
• Because doctors presumed she would die, they stopped treatment and didn't exercise her limbs, leading her to become crippled
• Then "magically" the cancer was totally gone, with no medical explanation
• Langer infers her mother somehow "made herself well"

Story 3: Imagined eating and feeling full

Teenage Saturdays and vicarious sundaes[8:16]
• As a 14-year-old visiting an older friend in the Bronx, Langer watched her friend eat hot fudge sundaes or banana splits every Saturday
• Always dieting, Langer ate nothing but imagined eating along with her friend, and by the end "swore" she felt full
Connecting these early experiences[8:43]
• She notes that in one case she made herself sick, in another she felt physically satisfied by imagined eating, and in a third her mother's cancer disappeared without medical cause
• Asked directly, she says she believes her mother healed herself based on her thoughts because it wasn't due to anything the medical world could explain

Defining mind-body unity and Langer's version of mindfulness

Rejecting mind-body dualism

Everyday evidence that mind affects body[9:10]
• She gives examples: seeing someone vomit can trigger a feeling of nausea in the observer, and a leaf blowing in your face can startle you and raise blood pressure until you reframe it as "just a leaf"
Historical medical view vs her view[10:32]
• She says medicine historically treated psychology as independent of health and believed disease required introduction of an antigen
• Modern talk of "mind-body connection" is an improvement but still problematic because it doesn't explain how a "fuzzy" thought interacts with a material body
Proposal of mind-body unity[11:07]
• She suggests discarding the idea of separate mind and body, seeing them as one thing: "wherever you're putting one, you're putting the other"
• If they're one, our minds have enormous control over our bodies, and we can harness that power to cure or help many disorders

Langer's definition of mindfulness vs meditation

Meditation as a separate practice[12:27]
• She clarifies that meditation is "fine" but different: it's a practice where you sit still for 20 minutes twice a day, intended to lead to mindfulness
Mindfulness as she studies it[12:44]
• Her mindfulness is not a practice but a way of being that comes from a deep appreciation of uncertainty
• She says everything is always changing, everything looks different from different perspectives, so we can't truly know things as absolutely true forever

Horse hot dog story and the power of uncertainty

Challenging "horses don't eat meat"[13:35]
• At a horse event, a man asked her to watch his horse while he got it a hot dog; she "knew" horses don't eat hot dogs, but the horse ate it
• This showed her that even firmly held knowledge (like horses only eating grains and carrots) can be wrong in some contexts
Scientific probabilities vs absolutes[14:06]
• She explains that science only gives probabilities based on highly specific conditions, but is then shortened into simple statements like "horses don't eat meat"
• She notes we live guided by such simplified rules, many of which were absorbed in youth and still dictate adult behavior

Benefits of mindfulness and costs of mindlessness

Mindfulness as engagement and non-robotic living

Feeling alive vs robotic[16:06]
• Langer says when you're mindful you are engaged, awake, and not responding like a robot
• Any time you're energetic, excited, happy, or serene, you're experiencing aspects of mindfulness; robots cannot feel those things

Life as a series of moments

Focusing on the present moment[17:58]
• She emphasizes that life only consists of moments, not large blocks like "the next 20 years" or "retirement"; you simply take care of each moment in turn
• If you attend to each moment mindfully, you end up with a life lived well

Questioning rules, expertise, and aging narratives

Challenging one-size-fits-all rules

Tall man on stage example[18:44]
• She often invites a very tall man (e.g., 6'5") on stage next to her (5'3") to show their physical differences, then compares hand size
• She asks whether they should do anything physical exactly the same way and argues no; if he made the rules, the more different you are from him, the more important it is not to follow them mindlessly
"Who Says So?" mindset[19:52]
• She says everything that exists was once a decision, so adults should reclaim their inner three-year-old and ask "Who says so?" about rules and norms

Challenging beliefs about aging and cognitive decline

Self-fulfilling beliefs about getting older[19:52]
• She contrasts typical beliefs that aging means "it all falls apart" with her own view that life gets better because earlier crises (scraped knee, missed Valentine, teenage pimple) were experienced as catastrophic only due to youthful perspectives
• Believing that aging means decline can help bring that decline about
Senior moments and worry about dementia[21:29]
• At 78, she notes friends talk about "senior moments" and worry that forgetting signals dementia, which increases anxiety and withdrawal and can worsen memory
• She points out young people forget too: in her Harvard health course, students can't recall her last sentence from the previous class, yet they aren't alarmed by it

Language, effort, and reframing work and play

"Try" vs "do" and built-in expectations of failure

The word "try" as a hidden limiter[22:45]
• She notes you wouldn't "try" to eat an ice cream cone, you just eat it; "try" embeds an expectation of failure
• In a study, participants instructed to "try" a task underperformed those told to "just do it"; she mentions someone dubbed it the "Yoda study"

Expertise, challenge, and fun

Perfection vs mindful imperfection[24:03]
• She contrasts doing things "perfectly mindlessly" with doing them "imperfectly mindfully," arguing the latter is richer
• If you could get a hole-in-one every golf swing, it would quickly become boring; likewise, winning tic-tac-toe against a four-year-old offers no real challenge

Work, life, and making everything a game

Beyond work-life balance to integration[24:57]
• She critiques the idea of "work-life balance" and prefers "work-life integration," where you're the same person at work and in play
Turning boring situations into games[25:36]
• At a long graduation ceremony, she and colleagues coped by guessing how many PhDs would be called in each area, transforming tedium into an engaging game

Practicing mindfulness through active noticing

Noticing new things in familiar environments and people

Simple noticing exercises[27:18]
• She suggests walking outside and deliberately noticing three (or more) new things you haven't seen before, even on a familiar route
• She recommends noticing three new things about a best friend or spouse to rediscover them and naturally draw attention
Realization that you didn't know as much as you thought[27:24]
• By continuously noticing new aspects of supposedly familiar things, you come to see you didn't know them as well as assumed, which fosters curiosity and mindfulness

Mind-body unity experiments: aging, vision, and time perception

Counterclockwise study with elderly men

Design of the retreat[31:37]
• They retrofitted a retreat to resemble the world 20 years earlier and had elderly men (around 80, at a time when 80 was not seen as "the new 60") live there as their younger selves
• The environment included period-appropriate TV, movies, and discussions (e.g., Cuban Missile Crisis) as if occurring in the present
Dramatic results after less than a week[32:52]
• Within under a week, participants showed improvements in vision, hearing, memory, strength, and looked noticeably younger, all without medical intervention
• Langer interprets this as evidence that putting the mind in a younger place removed limiting thoughts and allowed the body to change

Eye chart and expectations about vision

Critique of the standard eye test[33:27]
• She notes that standard Snellen eye charts are "rigged" to get harder as you go down, creating an expectation you will soon not be able to see
Reversing the chart to change expectancy[34:04]
• When they reversed the chart so letters got larger as you went down, people could see letters they previously couldn't, consistent with changed expectations
Starting mid-chart to trick expectations[35:00]
• In another study, they began the chart a third of the way down, so the point two-thirds down contained smaller letters than usual, yet people could still read them, again suggesting expectancy effects

Wound healing and perceived time

Clock manipulation experiment[37:52]
• They inflicted a minor wound on participants and had them sit in front of a clock that ran at double speed, half speed, or real time, without telling them it was rigged
• They measured healing and found the wound healed according to perceived time (clock the person watched) rather than real clock time
• Participants who saw a sped-up clock (feeling more time had passed) healed faster physically

Diabetes study and blood sugar

Game-playing setup with clocks[39:33]
• People with type 2 diabetes played computer games next to a clock that ran at double speed, half speed, or real time; they were told to switch games every 15 minutes, forcing them to consult the clock
Blood sugar following perceived time[40:51]
• Post-task blood sugar levels followed perceived elapsed time (from the rigged clock) rather than real time, supporting mind-body unity

Housekeeper exercise mindset study

Reframing work as exercise

Baseline beliefs of hotel housekeepers[37:19]
• Hotel and motel housekeepers initially reported they got no exercise, because they defined exercise as what you do after work, even though their job is physically demanding
Intervention: teaching that work is exercise[37:42]
• They divided workers into two groups; one was taught that their work (e.g., making beds) counted as exercise comparable to gym workouts, the other received no such information
Physiological changes from mindset alone[37:13]
• The group who believed their work was exercise lost weight, improved waist-to-hip ratio and BMI, and had lower blood pressure, despite not changing diet or effort level

Placebo, nocebo, and language in medicine

Placebo and nocebo as demonstrations of mind-body unity

Placebo as powerful medicine[47:51]
• Langer calls placebo "our most effective medicine," where a person takes a "nothing" they believe is something, and their body responds as if it is something
Explaining nocebo with the housekeeper study[48:11]
• She describes a nocebo as doing something but thinking it's nothing, which can erase benefits; the housekeepers originally did lots of physical work but, not seeing it as exercise, didn't get the health benefits
Pharmaceutical industry and placebo trials[49:03]
• Drug trials must show the medication outperforming placebo to be marketed, so companies are not "rooting" for the placebo, even though many participants improve on placebo and drug-placebo differences are often small

Problematic language: "in remission" vs "cured"

Stress-inducing implications of "remission"[50:57]
• She objects to telling cancer patients they're "in remission" because it implies the disease is lurking and likely to return, which fosters chronic stress
• She contrasts this with colds: once a cold is gone, no one says it's "in remission"; a future cold is treated as a new event
Advocating for "cured" language[56:21]
• Asked what to say instead, she replies she would tell patients they are "cured," noting that being cured of a cold doesn't preclude another future cold but reduces fear

Stress, perception, and chronic illness

Stress as a major killer and a product of views, not events

Belief that stress predicts disease course[57:26]
• She describes a proposed (but unrealized) study in China where cancer patients' stress levels measured monthly after diagnosis would, she believes, predict disease course beyond genetics, nutrition, and treatment
• She asserts that stress affects "everything" and is a major killer, impacting the immune system and overall health
Events vs views of events[58:56]
• She insists events don't cause stress; our views of events do, and these views can be changed

Practical stress-reduction tools

Tragedy vs inconvenience test[58:12]
• Next time you're stressed, she suggests asking, "Is it a tragedy or an inconvenience?" pointing out most stressors (spoiled meal, missed appointment, dented car) are mere inconveniences
Questioning predictions and seeking advantages[59:35]
• Stress requires a belief that something will happen and that it will be awful; she advises generating several reasons it might not happen and then, if it does, searching for ways it could be an advantage
Hospital surgery example[59:10]
• Teaching patients to reframe, she asks them to see a delayed surgery (extra days in hospital) as beneficial: controlled diet, fewer phone calls, more time to read and rest, etc.
• When patients truly adopt this reframing, their surgeries go better and they require fewer sedatives and pain relievers

Chronic illness and attention to symptom variability

Challenging the finality of "chronic"[1:01:31]
• She explains that "chronic" in medicine only means the medical world lacks a solution yet, not that nothing can change
Stock market analogy for symptom patterns[1:00:43]
• Symptoms, like the stock market, fluctuate up and down rather than moving in a straight line; drawing a line through ups and downs can show an overall trend but obscures moment-to-moment variation
Method: calling patients to track variability[1:01:16]
• They called people with chronic illnesses (e.g., multiple sclerosis, chronic pain, arthritis, Parkinson's, stroke) at intervals, asking how symptoms were now, whether better or worse than last time, and why
• This process makes patients notice that symptoms change, engage in mindful searching for causes, and feel less helpless, which itself is beneficial
• Across conditions, this attention to symptom variability helped people with chronic illnesses
Applying variability tracking to stress[1:02:34]
• She argues nobody is stressed all the time; periodically rating stress levels reveals fluctuation and can identify patterns (e.g., specific people or contexts) to change

Decisions, regret, procrastination, and transitions

Why hard decisions are overrated

You can never test all alternatives[1:04:25]
• She says you can never truly compare decision alternatives because you can't test them all, so agonizing over making the "right" choice is mindless and physically stressful
Strategy: choose quickly and make it right[1:04:41]
• She suggests flipping a coin or using the first option that comes to mind, then actively making that decision "right" by seeking its advantages and engaging with it fully

Regret as a form of mindlessness

Everything you do made sense at the time[1:04:14]
• She asserts that everything you do makes sense at the time or you wouldn't do it, so later regret rests on a fantasy that the unchosen option would have guaranteed a better outcome
• Because future events are unpredictable, the unchosen path could easily have been worse, so regret is unwarranted

Transitions, empty nests, and adding life to years

Nature of transitions[1:09:00]
• She compares postpartum blues and empty nest syndrome as examples of transitions where intense engagement in one role ends and people feel lost
• Transitions are inherently difficult because you're no longer where you were and not yet where you're going, but you can rebuild by initiating new activities and relationships
Living fully now vs chasing longevity[1:10:55]
• She observes many older adults obsess over extending lifespan, but she advocates focusing on adding more life to your years, which likely extends life and certainly improves quality
• She says if told she had six months to live, she'd start with a hot fudge sundae and then avoid wasting any remaining moments, engaging in mindful, enjoyable activities

Living confidently with uncertainty and applying mindfulness

Confident but uncertain: decoupling confidence from certainty

Why certainty is mindless[1:14:52]
• She says people conflate confidence and certainty, but certainty is mindless because everything is changing and perspective-dependent, so you can't truly know
Being confident in not knowing[1:15:20]
• Since nobody knows, she feels comfortable in her own skin not knowing and lives life with confidence rooted in that shared uncertainty
• Not knowing keeps experiences new and exciting, like hearing someone speak when you don't know what they'll say next

Trusting your ability to navigate outcomes

Outcomes aren't inherently good or bad[1:15:43]
• She reiterates that outcomes are not good or bad in themselves; how we experience them depends on framing, and you can always search for ways an outcome is advantageous
• Knowing you can reinterpret events removes fear of the future and reduces the need for rigid certainty

Immediate ways to start being more mindful

Noticing novelty at home as you would on vacation[1:17:31]
• She observes people are highly mindful when traveling, noticing architecture and sights, but ignore similar novelty at home; she urges treating local environments as new by noticing fresh details
Handling overwhelm and long to-do lists[1:19:31]
• For someone overwhelmed by a to-do list, she suggests simply making a shorter list, since anyone can generate an impossible list that can't be finished
Procrastination as mindlessness[1:19:25]
• She notes a student pointed out she'd never procrastinated; she explains that when you're fully engaged in what you're doing and respect your reasons, you don't berate yourself for not doing other tasks
• She defines procrastination as believing there's no good reason you're not doing a given task; recognizing your reasons removes self-criticism

Compassion for others and self through understanding

Assuming behavior makes sense to the actor[1:22:26]
• She maintains that whatever someone is doing makes sense to them, or they wouldn't do it, and seeing this fosters compassion rather than judgment
• Extending this logic to oneself helps reduce self-blame over past actions: you did them because they made sense at the time given what you knew

Concrete summary of how to apply Langer's research

Key practical steps for everyday mindfulness

Embrace not knowing[1:22:50]
• She advises accepting that you don't know and can't know with certainty; recognizing this automatically makes you pay attention and become more mindful
Use judgments as cues for alternative perspectives[1:23:14]
• She suggests noticing when you're judging yourself or others and using it as a signal that you're being mindless; then deliberately look for alternative ways to view the behavior that make it reasonable
Reframe stressors and ask different questions[1:23:37]
• Next time you're stressed, she recommends asking how the situation might actually be good, and questioning both whether the feared event will happen and how you could turn it into an advantage if it does
Question recipes, rules, and "the way it's done"[1:24:03]
• Using cooking as an example, she notes recipes are just someone's idea; if you lack an ingredient, you can substitute or change the dish (e.g., honey for sugar, turning sweet into savory) and make it your own
• She points out things need not always work out as expected; occasional failures keep life interesting, like avoiding a hole-in-one every shot in golf

Closing message and core takeaway

Personal renaissance through mindfulness[1:22:45]
• Langer concludes that living a mindful life leads inevitably to a personal renaissance, with health and well-being following
Mel's final encouragement to listeners[1:22:55]
• Mel reiterates that thoughts act as instructions to the body, urges listeners to share the episode, and expresses belief in their ability to create and live a better life using mindfulness principles

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Events themselves are not inherently good or bad; it is your interpretation that creates stress or relief, and by changing how you frame situations you can change both your emotional state and your body's response.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What current situation in your life feels purely negative, and how could you deliberately search for at least three ways it might actually contain advantages for you?
  • • How might your stress levels change if, before reacting, you always asked yourself whether something is a tragedy or merely an inconvenience?
  • • What is one recurring stressor where you could experiment this week with reframing it as an opportunity or advantage rather than a threat?
2

Mindfulness, as active noticing of new things and embracing uncertainty, increases engagement, energy, and health, whereas operating on autopilot under rigid assumptions keeps you stuck and unresponsive to change.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your daily routine do you feel most like a "robot," and what new details or differences could you start deliberately noticing in that context?
  • • How could you treat your home or workplace more like a place you are visiting for the first time, paying attention to details you usually ignore?
  • • What is one relationship where you could intentionally notice three new things about the other person this week to re-engage with them more mindfully?
3

Your expectations and beliefs about your body-such as whether something "counts" as exercise or how long healing should take-can measurably alter physical outcomes, so it is critical to examine and update those beliefs.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What physical activities in your normal day (cleaning, commuting, lifting, walking) could you start viewing as beneficial exercise rather than "nothing"?
  • • How might your recovery from an illness or injury change if you stopped treating medical timelines as fixed and instead focused on noticing small improvements and variability?
  • • Where have you accepted a diagnosis or label (like "chronic" or "in remission") as final, and how could you re-language it for yourself in a way that feels more empowering and hopeful?
4

You can never truly compare all the paths you didn't take, so instead of agonizing over making the perfect decision, it is more effective to choose and then actively "make the decision right" by engaging with and shaping its consequences.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which decision are you currently overthinking, and what simple rule (flip a coin, first instinct) could you use to choose and move forward?
  • • How could you shift your focus from worrying about unchosen options to identifying ways to grow, learn, or benefit from the choice you do make?
  • • Looking back at a past decision you still question, what concrete upsides or positive developments came from that choice that you haven't fully acknowledged?
5

Recognizing that everyone's behavior (including your own) makes sense to them at the time fosters compassion, reduces regret and self-blame, and frees up mental energy to create better responses now.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Think of someone whose behavior frustrates you-what might be the internal logic or need that makes their actions make sense to them?
  • • In what area of your life do you most harshly criticize your past self, and how could you re-examine what you knew and felt then to understand why you acted that way?
  • • How can you remind yourself, the next time you feel annoyed at someone, to pause and ask, "How might this make sense from their perspective?" before reacting?

Episode Summary - Notes by Morgan

Use Your Mind to Heal Your Body With the #1 Harvard Psychologist
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