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The Mel Robbins Podcast

The Exact Words You Need to Hear Today If It Feels Like Nothing's Working

with Mark Nepo, Chris Robbins

Published November 13, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

Mel Robbins speaks with poet and spiritual teacher Mark Nepo, joined by her husband Chris Robbins, about reconnecting to life, opening the heart, and finding meaning through love, suffering, and everyday ritual. Mark shares stories behind his seminal book "The Book of Awakening," his cancer journey, and his new work on creativity in the second half of life. Together they explore practical ways to honor your gifts, practice self-love, cultivate resilience, and participate more fully in the present moment.

Topics Covered

Personal development Religion and spirituality Aging Change and loss Identity Relationships Friendship dynamics Mental health Storytelling Masculinity

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • Life is always where you are, not somewhere else, and much modern suffering comes from the illusion that life is happening "over there" instead of here.
  • Two powerful, non-judgmental questions for someone who is struggling are: "What is it like to be you right now?" and "What do you care about?"
  • Great love and great suffering are the primary forces that break us open and return us to a direct connection with life.
  • Honoring your gift means keeping what is true about you in view and letting that gift become your teacher, rather than forcing it into a rigid role or identity.
  • Self-love can begin with simply identifying one small trait you feel good about, appreciating it, and noticing how it affects others.
  • Rituals are ordinary actions done with presence and an open heart; they reveal a "hidden order" in life, whereas habits are the same actions done on autopilot.
  • Resilience includes realizing that when you fully feel your own experience, you enter the larger human "river" of everyone who has ever felt that same emotion.
  • In the second half of life, looking backward or forward is most useful when it helps you brighten your light in the present moment, not escape into nostalgia or fantasy.
  • Admitting what is true, even when you feel powerless, is often the most powerful step you can take toward change.
  • Functional faith can be understood as resting your heart in what is true and giving yourself to acts of ultimate concern in the world.

Podcast Notes

Opening and framing the conversation

Mel describes the power of words, songs, and quotes as anchors on overwhelming days

She outlines how a passage, song, or quote can suddenly cut through noise and land in your heart[0:30]
• Mel notes how such moments make your shoulders drop, help you breathe again, and feel subtly better without knowing why
Mel believes this episode is meant to find the listener at this specific moment in their life[1:03]
• She compares Mark's forthcoming words to a song that moves you even if you don't know all the lyrics yet

Introduction of guest Mark Nepo and his impact

Mel introduces Mark Nepo as the author of "The Book of Awakening," a book that has changed millions of lives including her own and her husband's[1:29]
• She keeps the book on her bedside table and reads it several days a week, describing it as repeatedly showing up when she needed it most
Mel emphasizes the rhythm and poetry of Mark's words as what will touch something deep inside the listener[2:00]

Re-introduction after break and guest credentials

Welcoming new listeners and positioning Mark's work

Mel welcomes new listeners and frames Mark as someone whose words have lifted her up countless times[4:51]
She explains that "The Book of Awakening" features 365 daily meditations to help you grow, be present, live with courage, deepen relationships, and connect with life[5:21]
• Mel notes the book is celebrating its 25th anniversary and has been read daily by her husband Chris for 10 years, along with millions worldwide

Mark Nepo's background and new work

Mel shares that Mark has published 25 other books, including "The Fifth Season: Creativity in the Second Half of Life"[5:47]
Mark received his PhD in English from the University of Albany and served there as a professor for decades[5:49]
Mel sets the intention to dig into the wisdom and stories behind "The Book of Awakening" with both Mark and her husband Chris in the studio[5:29]

Opening heart space: life is where you are

Initial greetings and framing Mark's intention

Mark expresses gratitude for being welcomed and says he is looking forward to being together[6:24]
Mel introduces Chris as joining in the Boston studio for the first time[6:07]

Mark speaks directly to the listener about what is possible

Mark thanks the listener for taking time to gather and names a key teaching: life is always where we are[6:59]
• He calls a major modern assumption "menacing": the belief that life is somewhere else, tied to phenomena like FOMO
He states that "there is no there, there's only here," and that great love and great suffering teach this[7:24]
Mark observes that many people today have lost their direct connection to life, leading to isolation and challenge[7:34]
• He describes his calling in writing and teaching as opening a heart space that people can enter together, where they discover they are more together than alone

Personal impact of The Book of Awakening on Mel and Chris

Chris shares how he found the book during a closed-hearted period

Chris says the book came to him when his heart was not open, while he was deep into meditation and studying Buddhism[8:41]
• A friend mentioned reading a passage before meditating, which led Chris to the book
Over more than a decade of reading, rereading, and sharing it, Chris says the book has been the source of his own "awakening"[9:27]
He uses the book extensively in men's work he facilitates, giving it away and using it as a light and lens into humanity[9:59]

Mel reflects on living life closed off and on autopilot

Mel describes spending much of her life in her head, anxious, focused on doing, climbing ladders, and constant "go, go, go"[10:44]
• She acknowledges this is one form of life but notes many people reach their deathbeds realizing there was another way to experience life
She names common experiences: relationships that feel like roommates, feeling stuck or resigned, or being closed off without knowing how to access something else[11:33]
Mel hopes this conversation shows that another way of experiencing life and connecting with what matters is possible[11:36]

Helping someone who feels disconnected from life

Two foundational questions for someone who is struggling

Mark suggests asking: "What's it like to be you right now?" and "What do you care about?" as non-judgmental invitations[12:26]
• He advises against telling people they are stuck or simply telling them to cheer up, noting that such comments are ineffective

Story from a retreat illustrating how to meet someone where they are

At a retreat in Charleston, Mark gave an exercise where people in pairs shared one thing they held to be true[13:29]
• A mother and her adult son said they were stuck because the son said he didn't believe anything was true
Mark reframed the son's stance as living in "the land where nothing is true" and invited the mother to ask him what it is like to live there and what brought him there[14:27]
• He used an analogy: if the son moved to China, the mother would naturally ask what life there is like; similarly, she could inquire about his inner landscape
Later in the retreat, another mother grieving a son killed in a car crash broke down and left the room[14:39]
• When she returned, the young man who claimed nothing was true was the first to cross the room and embrace her
At the end, Mark told the young man that whatever moved him to comfort the grieving mother "was true," making him the teacher of the weekend[15:28]

Chris on why Mark's work resonates, especially with men

Chris notes that Mark's teachings are powerful because they don't offer pat answers but invite questions and self-reflection[16:14]
• He says the prompts and reflections in the book give people space and presence of mind to ask for help and to explore what is true for them
Chris observes that many men he sits with are used to going it alone and may not know what is true for them or what help they need[16:39]
Mark responds that this kind of mutual learning, where "who's the teacher" moves around the room, is one of the blessings of his work[18:14]

Mark's cancer journey and the birth of The Book of Awakening

Diagnosis and life being upended

In his early thirties, just after completing graduate school and focused on poetry, Mark was diagnosed with a rare lymphoma in his skull bone with a tumor the size of a grapefruit[18:08]
He describes being told he had cancer as a life-changing threshold: the door he came in by no longer existed, and there was no way back to life before that appointment[18:43]

Effort, grace, and being forced to feel everything

Mark explains that he had to drop under pain, fear, and worry, not to escape them but to access something larger than himself[19:57]
• He contrasts effort (preparing oneself) with grace (larger currents of life that carry you if you are open)
Because doctors needed him ready for possible emergency surgery, he could not be fully anesthetized and had to undergo procedures awake or with local anesthesia[20:49]
• He repeatedly begged to be put out, joking that staff might think "put me out" was his last name, yet he had to stay present because it was his journey

Chemo, perspective, and a key insight

After his first chemotherapy, staying in a hotel with his then-wife, Mark became violently ill, vomiting every half hour while still healing from rib-removal surgery[21:25]
• As dawn approached and he was exhausted and in pain, he suddenly realized that elsewhere a baby was being born, a couple was making love for the first time, and an estranged father and son were reconciling over coffee
From that moment he learned that "to be broken is no reason to see all things as broken"[22:07]

Spiritual integration after illness

Raised Jewish, Mark later became a student of all spiritual paths, which now informs all his books and teaching[22:22]
He recounts that his brain tumor vanished, surgery removed his rib, and chemotherapy helped-each of these he calls a miracle[22:27]
• He says he is not wise enough to know which elements worked and feels challenged to "believe in everything," seeing common centers and unique gifts across traditions

Experiencing depth in small moments: "Two Monkeys Sleeping"

Reading of the June 6 entry

Mark reads the passage about two monkeys sleeping in a zoo, touching hands despite crowds, and how their small sustained touch allows them to sleep in peace[24:33]
• He describes envying their trust and simplicity, noting they make no pretense of independence and clearly need each other for peace
• He ends by praying for the courage to be as simple in asking for what he needs as the monkeys are in maintaining touch

Meaning of the story: courage to stay connected

Asked what he hopes the essay stirs, Mark says he hopes it awakens courage to stay connected to oneself, each other, and the larger mystery of life[26:21]
He explains that opening is only the first step; the second is connecting, just as opening eyes without seeing or opening the heart without loving has little point[26:53]
• He notes that suffering and beauty coexist, like elements in a mountain, and that while we are suffering is precisely when we need to let beauty in
Mark critiques the modern ideal of doing it alone, emphasizing that while no one can live your life for you, you also cannot do it alone because we are interdependent[28:28]

How simple words and openings change us

Great love and suffering as "great openers"

Mark reiterates that great love and great suffering are great openers that drop us into the depth of life[33:18]
He says humans learn either by willfully shedding or by being broken open, and if we don't shed, we will be broken open-often both happen[33:28]
Phrases and expressions that stick often arise in those open moments and can later re-open us when remembered or shared[33:38]

Mentor's sentence: "You have a gift. Honor it and let it be your teacher."

Mark recalls his mentor Joel telling him: "You have a gift. Honor it and let it be your teacher" at a time when he doubted he had a gift[34:55]
He explains that gifts can show up in many forms, such as a gift for growing things, and that where we apply the gift (plants, children, people) is a separate question[35:06]

The meaning of "honor" and "trust"

Mark loves exploring word origins because words erode; he notes that "honor" originally means "to keep what is true in view"[36:00]
He says "trust" literally means "follow your heart," and suggests following what brings you alive in daily life as a guide to your gifts[36:32]
• Examples of heartening activities include staring at the sky, making meals for friends, or collecting stamps-whatever genuinely brings you alive

Staying a verb instead of a noun

Mark describes how early comments like "you'd be a good dancer" or "you should be a singer" can turn living impulses into rigid identities people try to live up to[38:07]
He distinguishes being a singer as someone for whom singing brings them alive, regardless of career, from turning it into a role that must be achieved[38:33]
He urges people to "stay a verb" rather than becoming a fixed noun, focusing on the aliveness of doing rather than external labels[38:41]

Self-love, owning your light, and "The Bee Comes"

Mel reads the May 19 entry "The Bee Comes"

The passage opens with: "The flower doesn't dream of the bee. It blossoms and the bee comes," which moves Mel to tears[39:29]
The essay recounts times Mark reimagined himself to be more desirable, only to learn that tending his own soul invites love naturally[40:03]
• He recalls first love in which he lost himself in another's beauty and made them the key to his joy, abdicating his own worth
Mark writes that our capacity for joy is carried in our own breast, like a pot of nectar, and that our deep vocation is to root ourselves and bloom[40:32]
• By "blossoming"-being thoroughly who we are-we release an inner fragrance that naturally attracts loving others more real than our fantasies
The entry concludes by urging readers to give up the want of another and simply be who they are, trusting that love often arrives when we are loving ourselves[41:37]

Prompt for appreciating small goodness in yourself

The reflection prompt asks readers to identify one trait they feel good about (e.g., laugh, smile, ability to listen or their voice) and give thanks for it[42:01]
Readers are then invited to notice, the next time they exhibit this trait, how it affects others[42:20]
Mel shares that consistently doing this has helped her slow down, witness qualities she admires in herself, and feel more appreciation and pride rather than self-criticism[42:46]

Creative process as introspection and owning your light

Mark explains that when he began writing that entry, he did not know the insight about the flower and bee; he discovered it by following what was real for him[44:18]
He observes that creative and introspective processes are essentially the same; by being authentic, we are "rewarded" with insights that then become our teachers[45:30]
He uses first love as an example where we think someone else holds the switch to our light, but maturing means owning our own light and recognizing others have their own switch[44:56]
• He calls owning your light the greatest respectful gift you can give to someone who loves you, instead of insisting they remain the keeper of your joy

Practical starting point for self-love

Mark suggests beginning self-love with small, concrete steps: identify one thing you feel good about in yourself and spend intentional time with it[47:37]
He advises noticing not only that doing this thing feels good but also what it opens in you and what it reveals about your gifts[47:44]
He recommends using your own life as a case study, similar to how DNA contains all of biology, because authentic moments contain all of humanity[47:37]
• For example, if you are good at listening to others, explore how you might listen inwardly to yourself with the same quality of attention

Intimacy with self, namaste, and kinship with all things

Namaste and the portion of universal spirit

Mark explains that "namaste" means "I honor the portion of universal spirit that resides in you"[48:59]
He believes each person carries a portion of universal spirit while here, much like the air in a bluebird house is a portion of the sky[50:07]
Becoming intimate with this inner portion allows us to be conduits between the timeless world of spirit and everyday acts like going to the grocery store[50:59]

Feeding his dying father and a deeper view of resilience

Mark tells of feeding applesauce to his dying father in a noisy hospital after years of estrangement and later reconnection[50:34]
• As he carefully fed his father without hitting his teeth, he felt sadness, beauty, and bittersweetness, then suddenly found himself in a moment of wonder
He realized he was sharing the universal experience of every adult child who has ever fed a dying parent, entering a larger "river" of human experience[52:27]
This led him to see resilience as the capacity to be so thoroughly who we are that we gain access to the kinship of all who have felt similar pain or wonder[52:15]
• He concludes that if he feels your pain or wonder, he is in the river of everyone who has ever felt those things, and that this connection itself is a powerful form of resilience

Admitting what is true and cultivating ritual

Finding your own way of seeing, not imitating someone else

Asked how to see life the way he does, Mark responds that he does not want people to see as he does, but to find their own direct connection with life[56:52]
He suggests starting by admitting what you don't know, opening your heart, and practicing the dual meaning of "admit"[57:26]
"Admit" means both to declare what is true and to let in, and he says these functions reinforce each other: the more you admit what is true, the more you let in, and vice versa[57:21]

Power of admitting what is already true

Mark calls admitting what is true the most powerful thing we can do when feeling powerless[58:50]
He gives examples where we fear loneliness or change, yet are already lonely or things have already changed; in such cases, the heart often knows first and the mind plays catch up[58:50]
He views many blocks and struggles not as deficiencies but as developmental aspects of our journey[59:35]

Mark's three morning rituals and the difference between ritual and habit

Mark describes being a morning person with a night-owl wife and a yellow lab named Zuzu, and outlines three simple morning actions[1:00:36]
• He opens the blinds to let light in, takes care of something living by feeding the dog, and does something for someone he loves by making coffee for his wife
He invites listeners to design their own simple rituals and says that when he fully inhabits his, they align and change the tone of the day[1:02:12]
He distinguishes ritual from habit: the same actions become habit when done rushed and mindlessly, but can be reclaimed as ritual by returning to them with presence and an open heart[1:02:41]

Ritual as revealing the hidden order of the universe

Mark traces "ritual" back to a Sanskrit root meaning "the hidden order of the universe" and says rituals reveal this hidden order when done consciously[1:02:41]
He gives examples such as watering flowers while noticing how water feeds growth and mirrors inner growth, or leaving a meal for someone with awareness of its meaning[1:03:21]
He contrasts days when we feel burdened by tasks like making the bed or paying bills with days when we feel grateful that we "get to" do those same tasks[1:03:26]
• He emphasizes that the "glass" of life is always both half full and half empty, and being human means relating kindly to both experiences through presence

Aging, creativity, and "The Fifth Season"

Meteor metaphor for aging and spiritual brightening

Mark introduces a meteor entering Earth's atmosphere as a metaphor: as it flakes off, it becomes brighter until only light remains[1:16:53]
He likens this to a spirit in a body over a lifetime: we do not enjoy the "flaking off" of health or abilities, but we can become brighter in terms of inner light[1:18:29]
At 74, with more years behind than ahead, he says the true purpose of looking forward or back is to make his light brighter in the present[1:17:51]

Memory versus nostalgia, and future dreams

Mark distinguishes nostalgia-wanting to go back and live in a past time-from the real purpose of memory, which is to recover qualities like aliveness or love now[1:19:29]
He suggests revisiting times of past aliveness to remember how they felt, then tracing where that feeling lives in you today instead of trying to return to the old circumstances[1:20:01]
Similarly, he says dreaming forward allows something in you that wants to be born to emerge, which you can then look for and nurture in the present[1:20:32]
He notes that these practices, while especially relevant later in life, are helpful at any age[1:20:42]

Faith, functional spirituality, and closing reflections

Central message: we are more together than alone

Asked for a single takeaway, Mark says he hopes listeners remember that we are more together than alone and that we need each other[1:21:12]

Two practical definitions of faith

Mark shares a Buddhist term for faith, "saddha," which he defines as "resting the heart in what is true"-an inner, functional understanding of faith[1:22:18]
He cites theologian Paul Tillich's definition: "Faith is an act of ultimate concern," which he views as an outer, functional definition of faith[1:22:18]
He suggests that resting the heart in what is true allows the heart's contents to come out through our hands as acts of ultimate concern in the world[1:22:37]

Poem "Free Fall" and its teaching

Mark reads his poem "Free Fall," which describes having one hour of air and many hours to go, urging slow breathing; one arm's length and many things to care for, urging giving freely; and one chance to know God with many doubts, urging setting the heart on fire[1:23:21]
The poem concludes that we are blessed, each day is a chance, we have two arms, and fear wastes air[1:24:50]

Final words and gratitude

Mark offers parting words that life is more than anything we could dream of if we truly meet each other and ourselves right here, right now[1:24:00]
Mel thanks Mark for traveling to the studio and for the difference his work has made in her life and anticipates a positive ripple effect as listeners share the conversation[1:24:30]
She expresses love and belief in the listener's ability to create a better life by opening to the magic of life itself[1:25:19]

Post-conversation reflections, bloopers, and disclaimer

Emotional aftermath and lighthearted moments

Mel jokes about already crying and attributes some of her emotion to seeing Chris well up at Mark's words[1:26:03]
She shares a moment of stumbling over the word "Narcissus" and laughs about small recording distractions like outside noise[1:26:12]
Mark thanks both Mel and Chris for the deep space of the conversation, and Mel jokes that Chris always pulls her into the deep end with his questions and open heart[1:26:43]

Legal and ethical disclaimer

Mel clarifies that the podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes, that she is not a licensed therapist, and that it is not a substitute for professional advice[1:27:18]

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Admitting what is true-about your feelings, your situation, or what has already changed-is often the most powerful step you can take when you feel powerless, because it opens the door for new possibilities to enter.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What is one area of your life where you quietly know the truth but haven't fully admitted it to yourself yet?
  • • How might your options change if you stopped resisting what has already changed and instead named it honestly?
  • • What specific conversation, journal entry, or small action could you take this week to acknowledge a difficult truth with courage and compassion?
2

Your deepest gifts are revealed by what genuinely brings you alive, and honoring those gifts means keeping what is true about you in view and letting that aliveness guide how you show up, rather than forcing it into a rigid identity.

Reflection Questions:

  • • When during a normal day do you feel most alive, engaged, or at ease, and what might that be telling you about your gifts?
  • • How could you shift from chasing a label (like a job title or role) toward doing more of the activities that make you feel most like yourself?
  • • What is one small way you could honor a neglected gift this week-by giving it your time, attention, or a concrete experiment?
3

Self-love can start with simply noticing and appreciating one small, genuine goodness in yourself and watching how it affects others, which gradually builds a more intimate and kind relationship with who you are.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What is one concrete trait or behavior of yours-however small-that you genuinely like or feel good about?
  • • How might your interactions change if you consciously noticed the impact of this goodness on the people around you?
  • • What daily reminder or brief ritual could you introduce to help you intentionally appreciate this quality in yourself over the next month?
4

Rituals-ordinary actions done with presence and an open heart-can align you with a deeper order in life, while the same actions done on autopilot become empty habits that disconnect you from meaning.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which recurring daily actions in your life feel like mindless habits right now, and which of them matter enough to reclaim as rituals?
  • • How could you bring more attention, gratitude, or symbolism into one simple act (like making the bed or preparing coffee) so it anchors your day?
  • • When during your day would be the best time to pause, slow down, and consciously transform a routine task into a grounding ritual?
5

Resilience is not just enduring hardship; it is realizing that when you fully inhabit your own experience, you join a larger human "river" of everyone who has felt that same emotion, and this kinship itself helps you carry what is hard.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your life do you currently feel most alone in what you're going through, and how might others have faced something similar?
  • • How could remembering that your pain or wonder is shared by countless others change the way you hold and move through it?
  • • What is one story-your own or someone else's-you could revisit this week to remind yourself that you are part of a much larger human family?

Episode Summary - Notes by Reese

The Exact Words You Need to Hear Today If It Feels Like Nothing's Working
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