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TED Talks Daily

Sunday Pick: How to use your muscles - or risk losing them | How to Be a Better Human

with Bonnie Tsui

Published November 2, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

Host Chris Duffy talks with journalist and author Bonnie Tsui about what muscles really are, why they matter, and how strength training can transform health and identity across a lifetime. They discuss age-related muscle loss, the importance of lifting "heavy" for everyone, and how muscle functions as both mechanical mover and endocrine tissue that communicates with the brain. The conversation also explores gendered body norms, strong women in sport, Bonnie's upbringing with a martial-artist father, surfing as a metaphor for presence, and how interoception and muscle memory help us navigate injury, aging, and joy in movement.

Topics Covered

Sarcopenia Exercise and weight loss Hypertrophy training Progressive overload Personal Development Identity Feminism Masculinity Surfing Resilience

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • Age-related loss of muscle mass begins as early as our 30s, making strength training and resistance work crucial for long-term function and independence.
  • Muscles are not just for movement or appearance; they act as endocrine tissue that sends beneficial signals throughout the body, including to the brain.
  • Lifting "heavy" simply means working with weights that feel challenging for you, in low repetitions, and progressing gradually as that weight becomes easier.
  • The strength community and strong-woman competitions show how expanding who is encouraged to lift changes what we think bodies-especially women's bodies-can do.
  • Cultural ideas like "too muscular" for women often mask discomfort with bodies that disrupt narrow norms of femininity, race, and beauty.
  • Daily, incremental training can quietly accumulate into profound physical and identity shifts, even if changes are hard to see in the moment.
  • Bonnie's martial-artist father taught her to value the body not for looks but for capability, courage, and standing up for what she believes in.
  • Surfing gives Bonnie a powerful experience of presence, flow, and partnership with the ocean, illustrating how muscle, focus, and interoception work together.
  • Muscle memory exists both in neural patterns and at the cellular level, helping people regain strength and skill faster when they return after injury or a break.
  • Reframing movement around joy and capability-rather than aesthetics-helps people sustain healthier, more meaningful relationships with their bodies.

Podcast Notes

TED introduction and episode setup

Why this episode was selected as a Sunday pick

Elise Hugh frames the episode as part of a series of Sunday picks from other TED Audio Collective podcasts[2:03]
She highlights that the episode focuses on muscles, aging, and how to build strength over time[2:28]

Introduction of guest and core topic

Listeners are told that bone and muscle mass start to decline from about age 30[2:11]
Host Chris Duffy speaks with surfer and author Bonnie Tsui about how to use and build muscles as we age[2:16]
Bonnie is introduced as the author of the book "On Muscle, The Stuff That Moves Us and Why It Matters"[2:16]

Mention of multimedia aspect (live filming and surfing)

Elise describes that Chris took the podcast on the road to film bonus videos with guests exploring what it means to be better humans[2:40]
She notes that one of these videos shows Bonnie trying to teach Chris how to surf while weaving in lessons on weightlifting, exercise, and movement[2:58]

Host Chris Duffy introduces the special episode format

Chris explains why this episode is different

Chris says the episode is special because they met guest Bonnie Tsui in person instead of virtually[3:27]
He notes that Bonnie is author of the books "On Muscle" and "Why We Swim" and that she writes about the body, movement, and humans in the world[3:32]
Chris describes that he not only talked to Bonnie about exercise and strength but also went surfing with her and did a workout that he calls humiliating[3:43]

Redefining muscle and strength as a philosophy

Common stereotypes about muscle

Bonnie says if you stopped 100 people on the street and asked what they think of when they hear "muscle," many would picture a very specific kind of body[4:04]
• She mentions stereotypes like a bodybuilder in the gym, someone who looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger
She notes this stereotype implies a specific type of person is allowed to have that kind of muscular body[4:10]

Muscle as more than appearance

Through years of researching her book, Bonnie came to see that muscle goes much deeper than aesthetics[4:36]
She began thinking of muscle as a philosophy rather than just tissue[4:48]
• She connects tangible characteristics of muscle-strength, form, action, flexibility, endurance-to qualities of personhood we strive for
Bonnie finds it moving and profound that the body can be viewed as something that elevates who we want to be in the world[5:25]

Life lessons from how muscle adapts

Bonnie states that muscle can only be strengthened by stressing, pushing, and challenging it[5:31]
• She explicitly links this to life, which is always stressing and challenging us
She describes this as a really good life lesson: stress and challenge are how strength develops[5:47]

Reintroduction of guest and focus on making muscles stronger

Bonnie formally introduces herself

Bonnie identifies herself as a journalist and author of the books "On Muscle" and "Why We Swim"[8:13]
She says she writes a lot about the body, movement, and humans in the world[8:18]

What writing about muscle taught her about strength

Chris asks what writing a book about muscle taught her about actually making muscles stronger[8:27]
Bonnie says she feels her body tense at the question, reflecting how deeply she has internalized that everyone needs to use their muscles and lift heavy[8:40]
She acknowledges that lifting heavy can sound intimidating, especially since much of the population has not historically been told to do it[8:46]

Shifting medical guidance: lifting heavy for all genders and ages

Bonnie describes a sea change in recent years-especially the last year and a half-around strength training[8:57]
• She emphasizes that strength training and weightlifting, long seen as the province of men and certain body types, are now being recommended by the medical establishment
She says doctors are now telling people, including mothers and grandmothers, that they need to be doing strength training[9:27]
She believes this broadens the idea of who muscle is for[9:28]

Value of the body for what it can do, not just how it looks

Bonnie connects her perspective to her upbringing with her father, who was both an artist and a martial artist[9:51]
• From early on, she learned that the body is beautiful because of what it can do
She distinguishes going to the gym to lift heavy as primarily about living a better, longer, healthier life, not just about appearance[10:27]
• She notes that wanting to look good is natural because it supports the image we want to project and our identity, but she keeps redirecting toward function and health
Bonnie stresses that building muscle supports cognitive health as well, because muscles are in constant biochemical conversation with the brain[10:34]

Muscles as endocrine tissue and "chatty" communicators

Bonnie explains that muscles are not only mechanical but also an endocrine tissue[10:52]
• She says muscles release signaling molecules that travel around the body, including to the brain, instructing it to do beneficial things
She describes this as a beautiful, ongoing conversation and wash of molecules that makes you feel good[11:16]

Why and how everyone should lift heavy

Clarifying what "lifting heavy" means

Chris admits he almost never lifts weights and doubts his mom does either, and asks what lifting heavy should look like for them[11:27]
Bonnie reassures listeners that lifting heavy simply means using a weight that feels hard and challenging for you[12:36]
• She frames it as choosing a weight you can only lift about 8-10 times before needing to stop
She says once that weight feels lighter and easier, you move up to the next weight to continue challenging the muscles[13:01]

Age-related muscle loss and planning for future capability

Bonnie notes that many people know about age-related bone loss (osteopenia, osteoporosis), but fewer realize the same thing happens with muscles[11:58]
She explains that in your 30s you begin to lose muscle mass as a normal age-related process, regardless of whether you are an athlete[12:13]
She argues that by your 30s you should think about who you want to be and what you want to be capable of in your 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, and beyond[12:27]
• She suggests examples like climbing stairs without discomfort, reaching cans on high shelves, or picking up grandchildren

Practical entry points to strength training

Bonnie emphasizes that all kinds of movement that bring joy are important; weightlifting is an additional form of resistance training to fold in[13:10]
She acknowledges the psychological "activation energy" required to start, but notes many gyms offer a free session with a trainer[13:27]
• She recommends being honest with the trainer about what you want to do in life that you currently can't, to tailor training to those goals
For Chris, she suggests he probably knows friends who quietly do weight training or powerlifting and feel amazing from it[14:18]
• She describes classic powerlifting movements as the deadlift, bench press, and squat
She says people see incremental changes day to day that add up to weeks, months, and years of transformation[14:57]

Muscle as highly adaptable and empowering

Bonnie calls muscle one of the most adaptable tissues in the body[15:06]
She finds it empowering and profound that muscle is constantly changing in response to environmental demands from waking to sleep[15:11]
Chris, in his late 30s, mentions noticing changes like more "stuff" around his midsection and shirts fitting differently, which are not distressing but not welcomed[15:36]
He reflects that small daily effort in strength training could lead to functional rather than merely aesthetic benefits for the rest of his life[15:57]
Bonnie underscores that small daily incremental changes in weight training add up to big, tangible changes you can feel in your body[16:07]

Strength training, identity, and the culture of strong people

Reframing self-image through muscle

Chris notes that Bonnie writes about how weightlifting can reframe self-perception-not just how you present but what your muscles enable you to do[16:32]
He mentions she visited the strongest people on the planet, who push the boundaries of lifting the heaviest weights imaginable[16:52]

Public demonstrations of strength and their meaning

Bonnie says we don't know our true potential until we try, and that's both beautiful and terrifying[17:52]
She notes that public physical demonstrations of strength have existed as long as human history[18:05]
• She imagines prehistoric scenarios where demonstrating strength signaled leadership, such as being capable of leading a fishing voyage or forces into war
She argues that we still respond strongly to witnessing physical feats, and there remains cultural currency in seeing athletes do incredible things[18:57]
She recaps an idea from her book that physical effort and suffering for someone have social value as demonstrations of commitment[19:27]
• Examples she cites include phrases like "I would walk across the planet for you," "jump on a grenade," or "take a bullet"

Disrupting expectations: women and strength

Bonnie says strength competitions can be funny and revealing because they sometimes upend expectations about who is supposed to be strong[20:02]
She introduces Jan Todd, once the strongest woman in the world, and uses her to explore how we think about women along the continuum of strength[20:20]
• She explains that Jan Todd was the first person to lift the Scottish Dinny stones, which weigh 733 pounds and traditionally marked a boy's passage into manhood
Bonnie asks whether a woman lifting such "manhood stones" erases or disrupts their cultural significance[20:39]
She notes that people can feel uncomfortable when long-held cultural touchstones about strength are disrupted[21:14]
She emphasizes the importance of seeing someone who looks like you do something you never imagined you could, because it expands perceived potential[22:01]
Bonnie points out that small daily incremental changes in strength can lead eventually to big shifts, even if gains aren't visible right away[22:14]
She notes that there is now an Arnold Strongwoman contest, illustrating changing norms[22:20]

Gender, biology, and cultural policing of strength and bodies

Biological averages versus individual variation

Bonnie acknowledges that on average, due to puberty and bone growth, men as a category are bigger and physically stronger than women[23:27]
She stresses that this doesn't negate the fact that some women are stronger than some men and that there's huge individual variation[23:35]
She argues that thinking only in categorical terms like "men" and "women" causes us to lose nuance and individuality and leads to telling groups they "can't" do certain things[23:57]

Policing gender boundaries and athletic success

Chris notes there's a lot of contemporary policing of gender boundaries, including expectations about how men and women should look and feel[24:32]
He mentions that some women athletes face sex testing or having their accomplishments questioned for being "too successful" or insufficiently feminine[25:03]
He observes that Bonnie's research undermines arguments that there is only one way a person should look as a man or a woman[25:20]

The idea of being "too muscular" and racialized body norms

Bonnie says that ideals for men's bodies have historically allowed a larger acceptable range than for women's bodies[25:33]
She notes women have been told they must fit within a much narrower category of what is beautiful, feminine, and attractive[25:50]
She focuses on how the phrase "too muscular" often gets used for female athletes, marking them as wrong or not belonging[26:11]
• She cites Serena Williams being told her body was too muscular and then, at other times, too sexy and racy, highlighting conflicting judgments
Bonnie connects these critiques to intersections of race, gender, and historically white-dominated sports like tennis and ballet[26:56]
• She notes that Misty Copeland, a pioneering Black ballet dancer, was also told her body was too muscular and questioned whether that was tied to being "too Black" for that space
Bonnie suggests that when someone doesn't fit existing norms, they are often labeled as "too" something, reflecting discomfort with disruption[27:08]

Performance body versus appearance body for elite female athletes

Chris summarizes research Bonnie wrote about where many NCAA women athletes distinguish between a performance body and an appearance body[28:16]
Bonnie says these athletes feel proud of their strong, muscular bodies while competing, because those forms allow high-level performance[28:56]
In social settings like clothes shopping, many of those same athletes feel their bodies don't fit norms and try to emphasize femininity with makeup, hair, and dresses[29:26]
She found it eye-opening that these young women had to perform such a calculation instead of being equally proud of their bodies in appearance contexts[29:50]
Chris says this illustrates that people should be able to be the most functional and fulfilling version of themselves without fitting into a narrative that doesn't serve them[30:07]
Bonnie imagines a world where a woman can walk off a field, court, or out of the water and feel simultaneously gorgeous, feminine, and powerful without switching selves[30:35]

Evolving acceptance of stronger female bodies

Chris references an article where Bonnie wrote about her own broad, strong shoulders and a sense of growing acceptance for that body type[30:56]
Bonnie says big shoulders are currently "in" and argues they never were out, but uses the piece to explore longer-term trends[31:00]
She observes that there is expanding acceptability for women's body image and presentation, but the range still isn't big enough and will continue to contract and expand over time[31:26]

Family background, martial arts, and valuing the body

Bonnie's father as artist and martial artist

Chris introduces Bonnie's dad as an incredible illustrator and animator who also trained in martial arts with Bruce Lee by attending the same high school in Hong Kong[34:30]
Bonnie describes her father as a professional artist-freelance commercial artist who worked on movie posters, book covers (including "Choose Your Own Adventure"), advertisements, and Olympic posters[35:05]
She says he practiced many martial arts, including holding a black belt in karate and doing taekwondo[35:20]
He integrated a life of the body and exercise into daily family life, involving Bonnie and her brother from when they were toddlers[35:26]

Childhood experiences of training and movement

Bonnie recalls practicing martial arts with her father in the garage when she was little[35:56]
She describes running with him after dinner at around 10 p.m. to a parking lot near her pediatrician's office about a mile away[36:10]
• Her memory includes chasing her father in the dark, playing with her brother in the lot while he ran laps, and seeing lightning bugs
In the art studio he would give them small tasks connected to his projects, sometimes paying them to paint elements like a basketball[36:38]
He used Marvel comics to teach anatomy, though the kids often just read the comics instead, which frustrated him[36:46]

Intergenerational influence and mortality shock

Bonnie notes her father grew up in Hong Kong at a time when exercise was not widespread, but his own father was unusual and took him spearfishing and swimming[36:56]
Her grandfather died of a heart attack at 64, which shocked her father and led him to double down on exercise and pushing back against mortality[37:14]

What her father wanted her to learn from physical strength

When asked what her dad wanted her to get from physical strength, Bonnie says at first he wanted them as playmates and "little ninjas"[37:39]
She believes he also wanted them to understand that physical practice was as important as academics, if not more so[37:39]
She recalls her parents insisting she and her brother choose a sport, eventually leading them to swim team instead of soccer[38:07]
• Staying on swim team until college taught her to be on a team and to take pride in what her body could do

Martial arts, readiness, and standing up for what matters

Chris notes a common martial arts theme that true mastery is about not fighting; Bonnie extends this to her experiences as a woman in public spaces[38:47]
She describes walking in New York and being harassed, feeling her body prepare for a fight even when she only shouts back and does not physically engage[39:15]
She suggests her father's training instilled the idea of standing up when something is unjust and being prepared to hold her ground[39:56]
She says being less timid physically affects how you see yourself as a person in society and in the world[40:06]

Pain, injuries, overlooked muscles, and goosebumps

Personal top-problem muscle areas

Chris lists the muscles he thinks about most: abs for appearance, shoulder from a lingering high-school injury, and his hand when it hurts[40:39]
Bonnie says she has been thinking about her shoulder area due to paddling and swimming, as well as her wrists and hands, which are delicate and packed with small muscles[40:58]
She shares a fun fact that there are no muscles in the fingers[41:15]
• Finger movement is controlled by muscles in the hands and forearms acting like levers and pulleys, essentially puppeteering the fingers

Overrated and underrated muscles

Bonnie names the biceps as the most overrated muscle[41:33]
• She says anatomist friends told her the biceps brachii is only the strongest arm muscle in a specific position, while the brachialis is actually stronger in others and gets little attention
She points out that people love surface muscles like pecs and visible biceps but often ignore smaller stabilizing muscles in the back[42:11]
She defends the gluteus maximus as deserving its hype because it is the largest muscle in the body and plays a key role in movement[42:31]
Bonnie says the muscles that cause goosebumps-the arrector pili-are especially interesting[42:56]
• These small muscles attach to hair follicles and contract to warm you when cold and to raise hairs in fear or awe
• She likens them to existential muscles responding to fear, cold, and awe, and calls them among the most underrated muscles

Surfing, interoception, and muscle memory

Bonnie's relationship with surfing

Bonnie describes her relationship with surfing as mostly love and sometimes hate, because she wishes she were better at it[43:49]
She loves the feeling of flying, flow, and dancing with the water, seeing the ocean as a dance partner[43:56]
• She notes that sometimes the ocean feels especially strong and rambunctious, requiring effort to collaborate, while other times it's easy and fluid
She calls surfing a perfect metaphor: you have to try hard but also let go, be in the right place at the right time, read the moment, and look where you want to go[44:32]
She treasures that when she is surfing, her busy brain quiets and she is fully present with the ocean and oncoming waves[44:57]

Proprioception and interoception

Chris asks about a term from her writing: interoception[45:17]
Bonnie distinguishes proprioception (sense of body in space) from interoception (how the body feels internally)[45:26]
She says the science of interoception is still new, involving below-conscious signals the body sends, including pain and breath depth[45:56]
She mentions stretch receptors in muscles that stop movement when it approaches injury risk, like when something wrenches your arm too far[46:46]
She notes there are multiple receptors informing an "atmospheric" sense of what's going on in the body, even if we are not consciously aware[46:40]
In surfing, she listens to interoceptive cues like feeling very cold or landing strangely on a board, which told her to stop when she tore her soleus[46:57]
She emphasizes the importance of listening to pain as a signal to stop, but also recognizing when it feels good to keep going[47:12]

Returning to movement after injury and muscle memory

Bonnie notes many people stop doing activities they love after injury or illness and face a long road back to movement[47:28]
She reassures listeners that muscles remember, not only in motor neuron patterns but also at the cellular level[47:41]
• She explains that research (which she notes is quite new) suggests exercise creates epigenetic changes making muscles more primed to respond to future exercise
Because of this memory, people can return to form faster in terms of mass and strength after a break[48:13]
She states another message from muscles is that it's okay to take a rest and then come back stronger[48:26]

Surfing as joyful manifestation of muscle and control

Bonnie describes surfing as her most joyful current manifestation of muscle and strength in the world[48:33]
She loves wrestling with the ocean and viewing it as having its own muscularity, with energy transfer among body, board, and wave[48:56]
Chris notes that muscle involves control of body and mind; Bonnie agrees this can be healthy but could become unhealthy if it becomes obsession[49:06]
Bonnie admits she, like everyone, sometimes wishes she ate better or were stronger, but wants people to think of muscles as supporting what they want to do, which looks different for each person[50:18]
She says her wish is that everyone can use their bodies for maximum joy, because muscles make us move and movement brings us joy[50:07]
Her closing question for listeners is: what movement brings you the most happiness, and how can you have more of that in your life?[50:12]

Closing thanks and credits

Host thanks and book mentions

Chris thanks Bonnie Tsui and reiterates that her books are titled "On Muscle" and "Why We Swim"[50:36]

Production team acknowledgments

Chris notes that How to Be a Better Human is produced by a team on the TED side and the PRX side, listing multiple staff members and fact-checkers[50:50]
He encourages listeners to share the episode with someone whose strength they admire and says the show will be back next week[51:21]

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Begin deliberately building and preserving muscle in your 30s (or earlier) to support the capabilities you'll want in your 40s, 50s, 60s, and beyond, using challenging resistance training as a core tool.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What do I realistically want my body to be able to do in 10, 20, and 30 years that might require more strength than I currently have?
  • • How could I incorporate two short sessions of challenging resistance training into my weekly routine without overhauling my entire lifestyle?
  • • When this week will I schedule a specific time to identify a trainer, program, or friend who can help me safely start (or restart) lifting heavier?
2

Reframe exercise from a pursuit of appearance to a practice of capability and joy-focus on what your body can do and the life it enables rather than how it looks.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In what situations do I judge my body mostly on its appearance instead of appreciating what it allows me to experience or accomplish?
  • • How might my motivation to move change if I defined success in terms of functional wins (like easier stairs or playing with kids) instead of how I look in photos?
  • • What is one movement or activity that reliably brings me joy, and how can I intentionally prioritize it at least once in the coming week?
3

Challenge narrow gendered and cultural norms about strength and body shape by noticing where "too muscular" or similar judgments show up and consciously expanding your idea of who gets to be strong.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where have I internalized stories about what a "feminine" or "masculine" body should look like, and how have those stories limited me or others?
  • • How could seeing examples of strong people who look like me-or totally unlike me-shift my beliefs about what is possible for my own body?
  • • What is one subtle way I can speak or act differently this week to validate strength and capability in people whose bodies fall outside conventional ideals?
4

Use physical practice-whether lifting, martial arts, or another discipline-to cultivate inner qualities like courage, readiness, and the ability to stand your ground when something matters.

Reflection Questions:

  • • When have I felt that being physically stronger or more embodied changed how confidently I spoke up or held a boundary?
  • • How might choosing a practice that challenges me physically also help me rehearse mental skills like persistence, focus, or calm under pressure?
  • • What is one situation in my life right now where feeling more physically prepared would help me feel less timid or more willing to stand up for what I believe?
5

Respect your body's signals-especially pain and fatigue-as guidance about when to push and when to stop, trusting that muscle memory and adaptability will help you return stronger after rest or injury.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In what ways do I tend to ignore or override my body's early warning signs until they become louder problems?
  • • How could I build a personal rule or checklist for distinguishing between the discomfort of healthy effort and the pain that signals potential injury?
  • • What is one current or past setback (injury, illness, or long break) where I could reframe my return as a gradual process that leverages muscle memory instead of expecting instant performance?
6

Think of progress as small, consistent, often invisible daily increments that add up over weeks and years, rather than dramatic transformations-especially when it comes to strength and physical change.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where am I getting discouraged because I'm only looking for big, visible changes instead of noticing small improvements in strength, ease, or energy?
  • • How might tracking simple metrics (like repetitions, weight lifted, or how stairs feel) over time reveal progress I currently overlook?
  • • What is one tiny, repeatable action related to movement or strength that I can commit to doing most days for the next month, even if it seems insignificant at first?

Episode Summary - Notes by Devon

Sunday Pick: How to use your muscles - or risk losing them | How to Be a Better Human
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