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SmartLess

"RE-RELEASE: Paul Thomas Anderson"

with Paul Thomas Anderson

Published October 9, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

Filmmaker Paul Thomas Anderson joins the hosts to talk about his upbringing as the son of a legendary ABC promo voice, his early obsession with movies, and how he learned to write and direct by making a short mockumentary about Dirk Diggler that later evolved into Boogie Nights. He discusses his collaborative process with production designer Jack Fisk and composer Jonny Greenwood, his views on theatrical exhibition versus streaming, and his work in film preservation alongside Martin Scorsese. The conversation also covers his love of comedy, how he met Maya Rudolph at Saturday Night Live, what he saw in Adam Sandler, and how he balances a demanding career with being a father of four.

Topics Covered

Filmmaking Art and creativity Storytelling Streaming media industry Film preservation Parenting and child development Fame and celebrity culture Comedy Personal narrative Film music and soundtracks

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • Paul Thomas Anderson grew up around television production through his father's work as the promo voice of ABC, which gave him early exposure to dark rooms, engineers, and behind-the-scenes collaboration.
  • He wrote a short mockumentary called "The Dirk Diggler Story" at 16 on Hi8 video and spent the next decade evolving and adapting that material into what became Boogie Nights.
  • Leonardo DiCaprio seriously considered Boogie Nights but ultimately turned it down to do Titanic, a decision Anderson and DiCaprio still joke about.
  • Anderson focuses on the factual steps of a story rather than writing to an explicit theme, trusting that themes will emerge naturally through writing, shooting, and editing.
  • His collaboration with production designer Jack Fisk on There Will Be Blood emphasized learning from simple sources like children's books and building compact locations so scenes can be reworked if necessary.
  • Jonny Greenwood's slightly detuned, string-heavy score for There Will Be Blood grew out of Anderson's existing musical obsessions and the film's wide-open visual spaces.
  • Anderson believes many modern limited series are 80-minute stories stretched into nine parts and worries that audiences are being rewired away from the discipline of tight 90-120 minute films.
  • He is deeply involved with Martin Scorsese's Film Foundation, seeing film preservation as crucial cultural work to save deteriorating movies from the 20th century.
  • Anderson met Maya Rudolph through Saturday Night Live, felt an immediate, almost premonitory pull when he first saw her name on a cast list, and even turned back from London to return to New York and pursue the connection.
  • Despite Quentin Tarantino's notion that directors only have ten great films in them, Anderson has no intention of stopping at ten and wants to keep making movies for as long as he can.

Podcast Notes

Intro banter: Chicago stay, Valentine's Day, and Sean's new play

Sean's multi-month stay in Chicago and the Chicago Theatre view

Sean points out that his apartment window looks directly at the Chicago Theatre sign[2:21]
• He says he knew the name of the building before arriving but not exactly where it was located
Sean and his husband Scotty witness a couple "consummating" across the street on Valentine's night[2:49]
• Scotty stares out the window for a while and keeps calling Sean over to look at "these people in love"
• They describe the encounter as unplanned, with all the lights on and "all parties upright," joking it was "half a wobbly H"

Discussion of city living and being seen through windows

Will talks about how in New York you alternate between being self-conscious about being watched and just living your life[4:03]
• He suggests the couple probably didn't care if they were seen and might even have been heightening their experience by leaving shades up

Sean's play "Good Night Oscar" and current projects

Rehearsals for "Good Night Oscar"

Sean is one week into rehearsal for a new play about Oscar Levant titled "Good Night Oscar" by Doug Wright[5:26]
• He confirms it's a play with some music, not a musical, and describes rehearsals as arduous but very rewarding
• Sean says they are going page by page, talking through backstory and character motivation to ensure everything makes sense
Jason notes Doug Wright previously won the Pulitzer for "I Am My Own Wife" and wrote the film "Quills"[5:11]

Will's Netflix show and Jason's series

Will plugs his Netflix show "Murderville" and says people seem to be enjoying it[5:46]
Jason fields a recurring fan question about when the final seven episodes of his series will be released[6:04]
• He says he cannot reveal the date yet but that the release will be "soon"

Introducing Paul Thomas Anderson and early film-related memories

Jason's playful introduction of Paul Thomas Anderson

Jason jokes that the other two hosts hate when he brings in academic or "big brain" guests, then introduces PTA as a longtime filmmaking teacher and acclaimed director[6:31]
• He describes PTA's nine films via humorous fake subjects like "a single digit" (Hard Eight), "nighttime mucus" (Boogie Nights), "party drinks" (Punch-Drunk Love), "hemophilia" (There Will Be Blood), "major golf tournament" (The Master), "addiction" (Inherent Vice), "haunted textiles" (Phantom Thread), and "Italian candy" referring to Licorice Pizza
• Jason notes that these films have earned 11 Academy Award nominations and that PTA has four children, lives in the Valley, and is married to Maya Rudolph
Paul joins, laughs at the intro, and says the list of subject matters had him "reeling"[7:29]
• He admits he would not necessarily have guessed himself from the list of odd film subjects

Oscar Levant admiration and Magnolia's Tonight Show stage

Paul calls Oscar Levant one of his heroes and mentions a rare KTLA Oscar Levant show featuring Fred Astaire[8:42]
• He recalls that the show was impossible to find until YouTube came along, at which point he searched and found it, cementing his fondness for YouTube
Sean asks about the opening shot in Magnolia that moves through hallways onto a soundstage and confirms it's the Tonight Show stage[9:34]
• Paul confirms it was the NBC stage used for The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson and local news, and recalls negotiating for days to move news anchor Paul Moyer's parking spot a few spaces for a Sunday shoot
• Jason remembers Moyer driving a bright red Porsche 911 with a large rear spoiler, remarking on how flashy it was for a local newsman

Paul's father as ABC promo voice and childhood exposure to TV production

Explaining the network promo voice job

Jason notes that Paul's father was the voice of ABC in Los Angeles during his childhood, and Will elaborates on the role of a promo announcer[11:00]
• Will explains that promo voices record announcements like "Coming up tonight at 8 p.m., it's an all-new..." and that Paul's father used a shotgun microphone in the control room rather than a traditional booth
Will says the shotgun mic, a 416, became the standard on the West Coast because of Paul's father, whereas East Coast studios commonly used U87 microphones[11:50]
• Paul confirms his father preferred recording in the control room with a shotgun mic and often smoked while working, noting he would "never go into the booth"

Closeness with his father and early visits to ABC

Paul says he was very close to his father and often visited the ABC facility at Prospect and Talmadge in Los Angeles as a child[13:20]
• He recalls going there between ages five and nine and experiencing his first taste of anything show-business-related, which felt "magical"
He remembers his father having strong friendships with technicians and engineers, seeing those working relationships as his early model of friendship[16:37]
• Those crew members were the people who were around their house, shaping Paul's view that close collaboration with technical people is central to the work

Desire to make movies, early writing, and learning script form

Wanting to make films vs. television

Paul says he cannot remember a time when he did not want to make films[15:41]
• He notes that when he was young there was a clear hierarchy in his mind: anyone could work in television but movies were the "gold ring" that not everyone got to reach

Love of writing and typewriters

Paul says he always liked writing and enjoyed feeding paper into a typewriter and seeing ideas on the page[18:42]
• He learned on a typewriter, which forced him to try to get things right the first time because revising was laborious
He occasionally still uses a typewriter for fun now but does not regularly write on one[19:13]

Studying the "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" script

Paul credits his mother with getting him a published script-book of "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" around 1978 or 1979[19:41]
• Loving that film, he used the book to copy its formatting and structure, effectively teaching himself screenplay layout

Imagery, music, and the way filmmakers see the world

Question about seeing frames in everyday life

Sean asks if Paul constantly thinks in images or sees frames around things while driving or doing daily tasks[20:10]
• Paul says it's actually easy for him to turn that off and he does not walk around like "Rain Man" obsessively framing shots
Jason and Sean note that they sometimes mentally cut music videos while listening to songs in the car, hitting cuts on big beat changes[20:44]

SmartLess in-jokes and Paul's appreciation of their humor

Paul recalls a favorite SmartLess joke

Paul mentions a past episode where Will jokingly referred to Jason's "father" as the security guard at 20th Century Fox, saying that line still pops into his head and makes him laugh while driving[21:33]
• He notes that certain jokes just stay with you, and this one has become a recurring thought for him on the road

Boogie Nights casting and origin of Dirk Diggler

Leonardo DiCaprio vs. Mark Wahlberg for Boogie Nights

Will asks if it's true that Leonardo DiCaprio was up for Boogie Nights but chose Titanic instead[25:59]
• Paul confirms he asked DiCaprio to be in Boogie Nights, and Leo agonized for months because he had to choose between that and Titanic, ultimately choosing Titanic
• Anderson says the choice catapulted DiCaprio to massive worldwide fame, but DiCaprio regrets missing the experience of doing Boogie Nights; they now laugh about it

The original "Dirk Diggler Story" short film

Paul wrote a short film called "The Dirk Diggler Story" when he was 16, about to turn 17[27:46]
• It was about 23-24 pages long, written in a popular format of the time, and structured as interviews with people looking back on Dirk Diggler's life, modeled after tabloid shows like "A Current Affair"
He shot it on 8mm video (Hi8), designing it as a fake documentary because his camera equipment couldn't make something that looked like a traditional movie[29:36]
• Paul notes that the documentary-interview format was a practical way to tell a story with his limited means and remains a widely used form
He has transferred the short multiple times; it's "within an inch of its life" preserved and may be available online[29:10]

Adapting the short into a feature and learning to write

Paul says he created fictional characters in a fake documentary, then essentially had to adapt those "fake lives" into a narrative film over the next decade[29:42]
• He wrote a 90-page documentary-style version, then decided he wanted to write a fictional feature instead, repeatedly reworking the material for about 10 years
He views that long process of retelling the same story in multiple forms as how he learned to write[30:04]

Writing process, themes, and focusing on facts

Approach to themes vs. story facts

Jason asks whether Paul starts from a theme, like "the irresponsible chase of fame," when writing; Paul says he never has anything that clean or thematic in mind at the start[32:21]
• Instead, he focuses on facts and real-life steps: the classic story of a guy stepping off a bus in Hollywood, taking his pants off, and becoming a star in a rise-and-fall arc
Paul says he is scared of writing to a theme because films that overindulge in telling you their theme feel annoying and boring to him[33:33]
• He keeps "half an eye" on emerging themes but keeps the main focus on what actually happens in the story and what is true to the characters and situations

Using existing works as structural analogies

At one point while developing Boogie Nights, he needed help understanding his story and realized it paralleled "Singin' in the Rain" in depicting a transitional moment in an industry[34:19]
• He saw pornography's shift from film to video as analogous to Hollywood's move from silent films to sound, using that historical framework to organize his narrative
Paul says that as you shoot and watch dailies, performances grow or shrink and unexpected elements appear, and you must both guide the ship and surrender to what emerges[35:58]
• Editing becomes another stage where you refine these emergent patterns and themes, continuing to shape the film without forcing it into a preconceived message

Collaboration with Jack Fisk and Jonny Greenwood on There Will Be Blood

Working with production designer Jack Fisk

Paul approached Jack Fisk, known for collaborations with Terrence Malick and David Lynch, to help design oil derricks and recreate an early California town[36:44]
• They were trying to learn how to get oil out of the ground and initially turned to dense technical books before Fisk suggested looking for a children's book on the subject
Fisk's advice to start with a children's book impressed Paul as a way to get simple, clear diagrams and explanations instead of getting lost in overly technical material[37:14]
• Paul calls that lesson-start with the simplest, clearest source-"really good advice" he still values

Location strategy and creating flexibility

Scouting with Fisk taught him that the more you can cluster locations close together, the more freedom you have during production[37:46]
• If a scene shot in one place turns out poorly, a compact location footprint allows the crew to go back and reshoot without huge logistical costs, effectively creating your own backlot

Collaboration with Jonny Greenwood and use of music

Jonny Greenwood's score for There Will Be Blood

Paul clarifies that Greenwood was already experienced writing for orchestra before scoring There Will Be Blood, having composed a piece for an orchestra that Paul admired[39:11]
• Greenwood sometimes detunes portions of the orchestra while keeping others in tune, creating music that sounds familiar yet slightly out-of-body and hard to place
Paul emphasizes that beyond these tricks, Greenwood writes beautiful music that complements the film, and There Will Be Blood offered huge expanses of visual silence that music could fill[39:31]

Listening habits while writing and current soundtrack obsessions

Paul says he does listen to music while writing and that the pieces he was obsessed with-like Penderecki, Schubert, and Greenwood's orchestral work-overlapped with Greenwood's tastes[39:49]
• He notes that his kids have heard the Smile record so much they're tired of it, and lately he and his daughter Pearl have been listening to the soundtrack to the film "The Worst Person in the World"
• That soundtrack mixes older artists like Harry Nilsson and Todd Rundgren with newer songs Paul had never heard before, giving them a varied playlist

Theatrical vs streaming, audiences, and theater quality

Thoughts on big screen vs home viewing

Jason wonders if audiences now mainly want to see films at home and how movies like West Side Story or Licorice Pizza would have fared in a long, wide theatrical run[41:31]
Paul says he likes everything-he can appreciate multiple modes of viewing-but when you make a movie, the idea in your head is still "I can't wait to see this on the big screen"[42:19]

Critique of multiplex experience

Paul acknowledges that many theaters are in poor condition, with perhaps only about 30 nationwide where a film will both look and sound great[42:41]
• He sympathizes with people who resist paying for a babysitter, parking, and tickets to sit in a subpar auditorium and thinks it's hard to defend that experience
He notes that specialty cinemas in cities like Los Angeles and New York that program curated films are often packed, especially when there's one 400-seat theater playing two or three shows a day[43:53]
• He contrasts this with giant 25-plexes struggling to fill seats and argues people are returning to theaters that respect them and the films, not to "weird, horrible pyramids"

Film preservation and working with Martin Scorsese

Tarantino vs Scorsese in film history efforts

Paul says Quentin Tarantino is great at turning audiences onto obscure films and running in his own lane, but his own closest collaboration in preservation is with Martin Scorsese[46:23]

The Film Foundation's mission

Scorsese, through The Film Foundation, has been lobbying studios since the late 1970s and early 1980s to preserve their deteriorating film libraries[46:45]
• At that time, studio films were starting to physically fade and die, just before the rise of VHS and home entertainment, and Scorsese argued cinema was America's greatest cultural-historical contribution
Paul calls being part of The Film Foundation one of the great honors of his life, emphasizing the need for money, time, and manpower to preserve film history[47:11]

Love of comedy, SNL, and meeting Maya Rudolph

Affinity for comedy alongside serious films

Paul says that like actors who want to be rock stars or musicians who want to act, many people who make serious films primarily love comedy[50:44]
• He always devoured comedy and thought his films were funny, even when others told him they weren't; Jason praises him for never winking at the audience when going for laughs

Visiting SNL, directing a short, and noticing Maya's name

During the Will Ferrell and Molly Shannon era at SNL, Molly invited Paul to come watch how they worked, which he did while writing Punch-Drunk Love[52:22]
• Molly told him he could direct a short, and he directed one with her, getting an inside look at SNL's fast-paced process
He was interested in SNL partly because he was preparing to work with Adam Sandler and wanted to understand Sandler's time there[52:18]
As he was leaving after a week at SNL, someone handed him a piece of paper listing a new cast member starting the next week: Maya Rudolph[52:50]
• Seeing her name, he felt an inexplicable, powerful sensation that his life had just changed, though he didn't know how or why at the time

Returning from London to pursue Maya

Paul later saw Maya on television, stayed in touch with people at SNL, and thought she was amazing[55:37]
He met her at the show, then traveled to London to work on Punch-Drunk Love, but something felt wrong, so he came back to New York[55:54]
• He says plainly that he returned because he wanted to pursue that connection with Maya, likening it to recognizing that his life had changed when he first saw her name

Shared birthday, birthplaces, and home life tone

Shared birthday with Sean

Paul notes that he and Sean share the same birthday: June 26, 1970, and Maya reminds him of that each year[56:47]

Birthplaces and changing uses of buildings

Sean says he was born in a hospital in Evergreen Park but usually just says Chicago[59:30]
Paul says he was born in Los Angeles in what is now a Scientology center; it used to be St. John's and Cedars of Lebanon, at the big blue building where Sunset and Hollywood meet near Prospect[59:30]

Adam Sandler, SNL sketches, and casting for Punch-Drunk Love

What Paul saw in Adam Sandler

Paul says he always liked it when Sandler got angry on SNL because a darker, more intense side would emerge[1:00:22]
• He cites "The Denise Show" sketch, where Sandler's character tries to woo back an ex-girlfriend and ends up screaming at his father on speakerphone, as a key example
During that sketch, Sandler screamed with such commitment that the whites of his eyes seemed to turn black, convincing Paul there was something "completely psychotic" under the surface in a compelling way[1:00:58]
• He loved Sandler's physicality and that dangerous edge, which made him excited to work with him

Limited series vs films and concerns about story length

Skepticism about stretching short stories into long series

Asked if limited series appeal to him, Paul says he's recently become preoccupied-with some concern-about seeing 80-minute stories turned into nine-part series[1:02:11]
• He dislikes the common recommendation to "just wait until episode three" and wonders why a story can't be good after the first episode
He acknowledges there are genuinely large-scale, epic stories that suit long-form treatment, citing older miniseries like "The Winds of War" as examples of that format as an art form[1:03:45]

Value of compact films like "The Purple Rose of Cairo"

Paul recently watched "The Purple Rose of Cairo," which runs about 92 minutes, and praises how much story it packs in perfectly[1:05:05]
• He fears that the painfully difficult craft of telling a story in under two hours-ideally around 90 minutes-might be lost if everything turns into multi-episode series
He also admits he hasn't seen much of the current TV landscape because when he has time to watch something, he feels pulled toward old movies instead[1:05:05]

Trailers, credits, and how he approaches them

Trailers as their own art form

Paul says he loves trailers and considers them their own little art form[1:02:33]
• He has cut some of his own trailers or collaborated closely on them, but for his latest one, an editor named Joel at Aspect Ratio cut a version that was so perfect they didn't change it

Enjoying end credits

Paul notes that there seem to be two types of people: those who like to sit and watch trailers, and those who like to stay and watch end credits[1:03:19]
• He says he likes to watch the credits, implying an appreciation for the full range of contributors to a film

Balancing filmmaking with being a father of four

Time management and presence with children

Jason recalls Paul once describing having four kids as like having four fires burning in the house and asks how he manages working hard and being an "incredible father"[1:03:39]
Paul says time will tell whether he's truly done well as a father but notes that writing lets him work from home and be physically present[1:03:57]
• He mentions that when he went to London to shoot Phantom Thread, his family visited for part of the time, but they understood that for about two months they wouldn't see much of him
• He suggests that being away for two months out of twelve is acceptable as long as he is with them for the rest of the year and truly present during that time

Love of Los Angeles stories, Dodgers, and future directing plans

Telling Los Angeles and Valley stories

Jason praises Paul's affinity for telling stories about Los Angeles in different eras and contexts, saying he does it unlike anyone else[1:05:33]
• They briefly mention the Dodgers, with Paul affirming "yes they do" when asked if he's a Dodgers guy

Reaction to Quentin Tarantino's "10 films" idea

Jason says Tarantino believes any great filmmaker only has ten films in them and notes Paul has made nine; Paul calls that notion "horse shit"[1:07:10]
• He indicates he intends to keep working like Clint Eastwood, making films as long as he can, rhetorically asking what else he would do

Hosts' debrief and admiration for Paul Thomas Anderson

Listing and praising his filmography

After Paul leaves, the hosts list several of his films-Boogie Nights, Magnolia, Punch-Drunk Love, There Will Be Blood, Licorice Pizza-and emphasize that he "doesn't miss"[1:08:32]
• They marvel that there are many years between his films because he invests everything he is into them, yet each one is great

Wishing for a broad comedy from him

Jason says he'd love for Paul to make a big broad comedy given how much he loves that genre, but suspects Paul gets asked that a lot[1:09:34]
• They connect his tastes-Monty Python, SNL-to the idea that such a comedy would likely be stunning, while acknowledging he may be reluctant to follow that suggestion

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Focusing on the concrete facts of a story and letting themes emerge naturally often leads to richer, less didactic work than starting with a message you want to deliver.

Reflection Questions:

  • • When you start a project, do you lead with an abstract 'theme' or with specific events, characters, and situations you find compelling?
  • • How might your current project change if you stopped trying to prove a point and instead concentrated on what would realistically happen next?
  • • What is one piece of work you're doing now where you could strip away the stated 'lesson' and trust the underlying story or data to suggest its own meaning?
2

Start with the simplest, clearest sources when learning something complex-like a children's-book version of a technical subject-then build sophistication from there.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your life are you pretending to understand something complicated instead of seeking out a beginner-friendly explanation?
  • • How could finding a 'children's book' equivalent-simple diagrams, overviews, or primers-accelerate your progress on a confusing topic you're working with now?
  • • What is one complex area (technical, financial, creative) where you could deliberately restart at the basics this month to deepen your real understanding?
3

Revisiting and reshaping the same core idea over years-like turning a teenage short into a mature feature-can be one of the most powerful ways to develop mastery.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Is there an idea, story, or problem you've been circling for years that might deserve another, more deliberate pass rather than being abandoned?
  • • How could you reframe a past project you shelved-essay, product, script, business plan-into a new format that fits who you are now?
  • • What concrete step could you take this week to pull an old idea out of the drawer and give it a fresh, more experienced iteration?
4

Choosing collaborators who both simplify complexity and keep things physically close together (like clustered locations) creates flexibility and resilience in any large project.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Who on your current team has a knack for simplifying complex tasks, and how can you involve them earlier in your planning?
  • • In what ways is the physical or organizational layout of your work making it harder to adjust or reshoot when something doesn't work?
  • • What is one structural change you could make-centralizing information, co-locating roles, reducing dependencies-that would make it easier to correct mistakes later?
5

There is enduring value in tight, disciplined storytelling and experiences; not every idea deserves to be stretched into a sprawling series just because the format exists.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where are you adding unnecessary steps, meetings, or deliverables to something that could be shorter and sharper?
  • • How might your audience, customers, or colleagues benefit if you aimed to deliver the same value in half the time or length?
  • • What is one process, presentation, or product you could intentionally compress over the next week to practice more disciplined communication?
6

Intuitive flashes-like sensing your life has changed when you see a name-are worth paying attention to, especially when they align with your values and you're willing to act on them.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Can you remember a moment when you had a strong intuitive feeling about a person or opportunity and either acted on it or ignored it?
  • • How could you create a little more space in your schedule to notice and investigate those 'this might change my life' signals instead of pushing past them?
  • • What is one recent hunch you've had that you could safely test or explore in a small, concrete way this month?
7

Balancing deep professional ambition with family life often comes down to being genuinely present when you are home and honest about the unavoidable periods when you won't be.

Reflection Questions:

  • • When you are with your family or close friends, how often are you mentally still at work instead of being fully present?
  • • How might your important relationships change if you communicated clearly about your 'disappear' periods and scheduled equally clear 'fully present' periods?
  • • What is one boundary or ritual you could establish this week to signal when you are off-duty and truly available to the people who matter most?
8

Preserving the foundations of your field-its history, tools, and best work-is not just nostalgia; it protects a cultural and professional memory that future work depends on.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What parts of your profession's history or foundational knowledge do you rely on but rarely think about preserving or passing on?
  • • How could you contribute in a small way to documenting, teaching, or archiving important practices in your area of expertise?
  • • What specific artifact, process, or story from your field could you capture and share over the next month so it isn't lost?

Episode Summary - Notes by Skylar

"RE-RELEASE: Paul Thomas Anderson"
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