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SmartLess

"Michelle Pfeiffer"

with Michelle Pfeiffer

Published September 29, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

The hosts welcome Michelle Pfeiffer for a wide-ranging conversation about her long acting career, from early roles like Fantasy Island and Grease 2 to iconic films such as Scarface and The Fabulous Baker Boys. She discusses how her approach to acting has evolved, learning to let go of perfectionism, the changing landscape for women in film and television, and balancing a busy career with family life and becoming a grandmother. Pfeiffer also shares anecdotes about working with Will on a recent series, her intense experience on Scarface, and her first attempts at acting while working in a supermarket and studying court reporting.

Topics Covered

Acting craft Fame and celebrity culture Art and creativity Streaming media industry Television history Personal narrative Relationships Career transitions Marriage

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • Michelle Pfeiffer describes how she now enjoys acting more than ever because she has let go of much of the anxiety and over-analysis she once brought to her work.
  • Her path to acting included high school theatre taken to avoid a grammar class, a job as a supermarket checker, and a stint studying court reporting before she pursued acting seriously.
  • Pfeiffer sees today's television and streaming landscape as offering far more and better roles for women, especially women her age, than when she started.
  • She prioritizes work-life balance more strongly now, especially after becoming a grandmother, and openly describes herself as historically "all or nothing" with work.
  • Working with her husband David E. Kelley for the first time made her nervous about mixing marriage and work, but she found the experience fun and defined clear boundaries with him on set.
  • She stopped watching dailies years ago because they fueled self-criticism and imitation, preferring now to trust her instincts and stay present in scenes.
  • Pfeiffer compares acting and painting, emphasizing how mistakes and figuring out how to fix them often lead to the most interesting creative results.
  • Her audition process for Scarface was long and fear-filled, but she ultimately won the role after a screen test where she fully committed and accidentally cut Al Pacino during a scene.
  • She cites Married to the Mob, Margo's Got Money Troubles and The Fabulous Baker Boys as among her favorite work experiences and performances.

Podcast Notes

Opening banter, aging, and modern slang

Cold open confusion and show start

Hosts debate whether they are actually recording or just having a business meeting about cold opens[2:18]
Sean welcomes listeners and says "welcome to Smart List" as the show begins[2:32]

Struggling to keep up with youth slang

They discuss the term "sus" and define it as "suspect" and something kids say[2:53]
They mention "riz" and note it's not new anymore, highlighting their sense of being out of touch[3:00]
Sean says he heard "zesty" is used to mean gay and asks if that is correct, while others say they haven't heard it[3:18]
Will brings up the term "cheugy" and Jason reads a definition describing something outdated or trying too hard to be trendy[4:28]
• Jason admits he just looked up the definition of "cheugy" while they were talking, underscoring their reliance on the internet to decode youth slang

Jokes about getting old and physical sounds

They talk about making noises when getting out of bed or out of a chair, framing it as a sign of aging[4:06]
Will says Jason has been making an exertion sound since his early 30s, long before being old[4:12]
Jason jokes that you need to make a sound to "lock in the core" when standing up[4:12]
Sean jokes about making an accidental fart sound when getting out of bed, and Will warns he'll regret saying that in front of their classy guest[3:42]

Sean's theater story and more slang

Sean's story about an audience member falling asleep

Sean describes a woman in the front row at his play repeatedly nodding off like she was narcoleptic[4:58]
At the bows, Sean points directly at her and mouths "you gotta go night-night" and "are you tie-tie?" while the cast laughs on stage[5:28]
He says she just kept clapping and didn't realize he was addressing her, suggesting she missed the joke or lacked social awareness in the moment[5:35]

Will introduces more slang like "chopped"

Will asks if the woman looked "chopped" and explains "chopped" means kind of busted up or not looking great[6:12]
He says he got the term from his son Abel and that he hangs out with his kids and their friends, joking they are all "young dudes" in the same friend group[6:30]

Pre-guest jokes and light banter

Nicotine gum and pouches chat

They notice Will chewing gum and ask if it is Nicorette; he reveals he has a nicotine pouch (Zin) in as well[6:57]
They riff about getting free products and list various food and other brands in a joking way[7:02]

Quick joke exchange before the guest

Jason tells a pun about a dwarf psychic escaping prison described as a "small medium at large"[7:47]
Will tells an extended joke about a talking horse diagnosing a car alternator and a bartender revealing a different horse that "doesn't know anything about cars"[8:53]
The others criticize Will's joke as having a weak punchline but decide to leave it in so listeners know he sometimes "clanks" a joke[9:16]
Jason counters with his own joke about two pieces of string in a bar ending with the pun "afraid not"[9:57]

Bojack Horseman aside

Will says one of his daughters is "eating up" BoJack Horseman and notes it's inappropriate for her age but widely considered a great show[10:30]

Introducing Michelle Pfeiffer and recent collaboration

Setting up the surprise guest

Will builds anticipation by describing their guest as an A-list, iconic actor who has worked with Pacino, De Niro, and Nicholson, calling her a "queen" and "catwoman" and referencing Dangerous Liaisons[10:59]
Jason guesses Michelle Pfeiffer immediately based on that description, citing the short list of incredible icons[11:05]

Michelle Pfeiffer joins the conversation

Michelle appears and greets them with "Good morning"; they marvel at how quickly Jason guessed her identity[11:25]
She says she is getting ready to go back to Montana for more work on a project they refer to as "the Madison"[11:42]

Will and Michelle's experience working together

Will recalls doing a couple of days with Michelle on the project and says he came home raving about her as a scene partner[11:55]
Michelle describes their scenes as grueling, noting they did a lot of takes and angles over two or three days with heavy dialogue where she cursed at him often[12:26]
• She characterizes it as mostly just the two of them talking at each other for days, emphasizing the intensity of that kind of acting workload

Early career: Fantasy Island, theatre, and first jobs

First television credit on Fantasy Island

Will notes that her first television credit was Fantasy Island and asks if that is true; Michelle confirms it and reacts with slight embarrassment[13:16]
She says she had one line in an episode called "The Island of Lost Women" and remembers the line: "Who is he, Naomi? Who is he, Naomi?"[13:27]
• Michelle explains the premise: there were no men on the island, so the women were all lusting after one man who appeared, though she cannot remember which actor played him
She recalls running around in pastel togas as one of the "lost women" and being very excited to see her name with a star on the honeywagon door[13:41]
• She describes the honeywagon as a set of small trailer rooms with minimal space and a tiny bathroom, but says seeing her name there made it feel like she had "made it"

High school theatre and discovering acting

Michelle says she took theatre in high school to avoid taking an English/grammar class and initially thought theatre kids were geeky[16:14]
Once she joined, she felt she fit right in and fell in love with acting, even though she never imagined it as a real career[16:34]
She notes she had never met an actor or famous person growing up and that there was no acting background in her family[16:45]
Her father was not thrilled at the idea of her becoming an actor, adding to the sense that it was an unrealistic path[16:52]

Working at a supermarket and studying court reporting

After high school, Michelle worked at Vons supermarket as a checker but admits she was not very good at it, struggling to balance her cash register[17:13]
She points out that this was before scanning when cashiers had to manually type in every price[17:17]
She enrolled in a trade school for court reporting, learning stenography, which she describes as a completely different language and keyboard system[17:38]
• After about a year of study, she found that when talking to people her hands would start moving automatically as if transcribing, making her feel "crazy in the head"
Asked whether stenography helped her memorize dialogue, she says not really, though she allows it might have had some indirect benefit[18:22]

Grease 2, cult favorites, and audience reactions

Sean's fandom of Grease 2

Sean says Grease 2 was one of his favorite childhood movies; he and his sister watched it a thousand times and he knows every line and song[18:57]
Michelle asks his favorite part and he cites "A Girl for All Seasons" as especially ridiculous and fun[19:24]
They talk about the cult following of Grease 2 and Michelle says people often quote it or recreate scenes, including someone online who reenacts every scene that she reposted[19:46]

Other frequently referenced roles

Michelle notes that people also frequently quote Scarface to her, though usually they quote Tony Montana rather than her own lines[20:03]
She mentions The Fabulous Baker Boys as another project that people bring up a lot, with hosts recalling her singing on top of a piano and their fondness for Bo and Jeff Bridges[20:24]

Evolving relationship with career, relevance, and process

Feeling relevant and longevity in a fickle industry

Jason asks if she ever privately acknowledges her longevity and relevance in such a fickle industry; Michelle says she does not[24:34]
She is often surprised to hear others describe her as relevant and feels like everyone is just getting their 15 minutes, making it hard to feel lasting relevance[25:13]
Will notes she currently has multiple projects-a series referred to as Madison, a show on Apple TV, and a movie for Amazon-indicating she is very busy and in demand[25:46]

Enjoying acting more now and balancing work with life

Michelle says she loves acting and has never lost that love; in fact she probably enjoys it more now than ever[26:02]
She attributes this to being more relaxed about the work and not going as deep for as long in a way that pulls her out of being present in her life[26:09]
She describes herself as an all-or-nothing person who likes taking on challenges and then ends up in sink-or-swim situations that she paradoxically feeds on[27:06]
With multiple acting jobs and a fragrance company she founded about seven years ago, she says she has been forced to prioritize and cannot obsess about each role as she once did[26:18]

Becoming a grandmother and shifting priorities

Michelle reveals, somewhat for the first time publicly, that she became a grandmother the previous year and calls it "heaven" and "ridiculous" in how great it is[27:50]
She says if she had known she was about to become a grandmother, she would not have taken on so much work at once because she wants more time with her grandchild[28:15]
She emphasizes feeling like she has a finite amount of time left and wanting to be present rather than constantly submerged in work[27:40]

Letting go of angst and changing her process

Michelle contrasts her earlier way of working-personalizing deeply, extensive research, and constant angst-with a newer approach focused more on discovery in the moment[28:36]
She says she used to watch all the dailies to judge what she was doing and decide if she needed to adjust, but she eventually stopped because it was torturing her[29:49]
• She describes herself as super critical and notes that no matter what she saw in dailies she would focus on the negative, so she would show up the next day and give 110% regardless
She worries that watching herself leads to copying moments she thought were good instead of staying spontaneous and in the moment, which undermines authenticity[32:07]

Creative mindset, painting analogy, and fragrance business

Avoiding self-imitation and embracing mistakes

Michelle explains that when you fixate on a "really good moment" and try to recreate it, you lose the spontaneity that made it good in the first place[31:52]
She draws an analogy to painting, which she also does, describing how mistakes in a painting force you to improvise solutions you didn't plan for[32:16]
• She says the part of a painting you had to fix because of a mistake often becomes your favorite part, reinforcing her belief that missteps are vital to creative process
She generalizes that in any kind of creating, the process of making and fixing mistakes is integral and should not be over-controlled[32:31]

Fragrance company and juggling multiple careers

Michelle mentions she founded a fragrance company about seven years earlier, during a period when she was not working as much as an actor[26:18]
She jokes about another fragrance called "Dave" in the context of the hosts' riffing, but does not go into detail about her own brand's name or products[32:55]

Theater etiquette, audience interactions, and industry changes for women

Sean's sleeping audience member and stage protocol

Jason asks if Sean can get in trouble for talking to an audience member on stage; Sean clarifies he only did it during curtain call, which is acceptable[33:24]
Michelle jokes that Jason hit "fuck it" ten years ago and has been trying to get fired from his Broadway show, highlighting their familiarity with stage norms[33:37]
Michelle quips that Sean should bring a pillow when Jason comes to see his play, continuing the gag that his performance puts people to sleep[34:02]

Roles for women and television vs. film

Michelle is asked if she's seen improvements in roles for women or treatment of women over her career given various industry scandals[34:54]
She says roles for women are way better now, largely because of television and streaming platforms increasing the volume and variety of content[36:31]
She acknowledges there is a "ridiculous amount" of content with much of it not great, but notes that has always been true in the industry[35:08]
She feels that much of the very best work today is being done by women, particularly on television, which is keeping many female performers working[35:45]
Michelle says she has never seen a greater appreciation for women her age in entertainment than there is now, which she finds exciting[36:28]
They note that in the past you could not move between film and TV without stigma, and doing commercials could be seen as career poison for film actors[36:34]
Michelle recalls that even about ten years ago, her representatives warned her that doing TV could hurt her film career unless it was something truly special[37:56]

Work-life balance, working with David E. Kelley, and new roles

Life-work balance and domestic priorities

Michelle says that now, especially as a grandmother, work-life balance is the main factor in decisions, even though her recent slate of work was chosen before she knew she'd be a grandparent[45:23]
She recounts thinking "it's my time now" when she accepted multiple projects that required long stretches in Montana and Texas, believing she could finally do exactly what she wanted workwise[45:52]

Working with husband David E. Kelley on Margo's Got Money Troubles

Michelle says she told her husband she would not do long-location jobs unless he committed to being with her the whole time, and praises him for following through since he can write anywhere[46:06]
She describes working for him on Margo's Got Money Troubles as really fun, but says she had long been reluctant to work with him because she cherishes their marriage and fears the "kiss of death" of working together publicly[46:29]
She notes that couples on the cover of magazines together often end up divorced the next year, using that pattern as a humorous cautionary tale[46:47]
David set an early boundary when she asked too many questions, telling her some questions were "for the director," which she took as a useful clarification of roles[47:10]
She says the character she plays in Margo's Got Money Troubles is so well written that she felt "born to play" her[47:30]
• The character, Cheyenne, is a wannabe real housewife of Fullerton, a single mom who works in the Bloomingdale's cosmetics department-details Michelle clearly enjoys describing

Choosing projects, favorite films, and performances

How she evaluates scripts, directors, and roles

Michelle says that at the start of a career you just want a job, and then later you hope to choose the best of what is offered, becoming pickier over time[48:27]
She has seen talented directors turn mediocre scripts into great films, and seen great scripts falter in the wrong hands, leading her to prioritize directors heavily[48:36]
If forced to choose, she would pick director over script, then looks at whether a part "speaks" to her; she says she can often hear and see it clearly in her head because she is very visual[48:59]
She says it does not matter to her whether the role is a lead or further down the call sheet, though they joke that lower billing can mean a honeywagon instead of a large trailer[48:36]

Favorite experiences, films, and performances

Asked to pick favorites, Michelle hesitates because she worries about leaving people out, but distinguishes between favorite film, favorite performance, and best on-set experience[49:35]
For best experience, she cites a toss-up between Married to the Mob and Margo's Got Money Troubles, describing both as a ton of fun[49:29]
She names The Fabulous Baker Boys as possibly her favorite film and possibly her favorite performance as well, effectively "double-dipping" its status in her mind[49:35]
Michelle says she thinks The Fabulous Baker Boys would make a great sequel exploring where the characters are now, but she jokes she cannot get Steve (Klawson?) to do it[49:53]

Grease 2 questions and audition fears

Nerves about taking over in Grease 2

Sean asks if she was scared to be in the sequel to such a massive hit like the original Grease; Michelle says of course she was terrified[50:29]
She points out that the first film had John Travolta and Olivia Newton-John and a huge following, while Grease 2 had two unknowns-her and Maxwell Caulfield[50:44]
She recalls marketing using the tagline "too hot" and says she panicked at the idea, thinking "what if they don't think I'm hot?" and resenting the pressure[51:06]
Despite the nerves, she says she loved the dancing and singing because she enjoys both, though she did not yet see herself as the kind of singer-dancer star associated with the franchise[51:17]

Scarface: cultural impact, filming, and intense audition journey

Cultural impact and challenging shoot

Will brings up Scarface and notes its ongoing cultural impact; Michelle says she had no idea it would become such a phenomenon or cult classic at the time[54:20]
She recalls the shoot as very intense, saying it went on for about six months and even ran a couple of months over schedule[55:09]
Playing a cocaine addict, she intentionally did not eat and kept getting skinnier, to the point where crew members started bringing her bagels and begging her to eat[55:16]
She notes that the climactic restaurant scene where her character is at her worst kept being pushed back, so she had to maintain that extreme physical state for longer than expected[55:34]
Michelle describes a set environment full of men, including Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio as the only other woman, with a lot of machismo and guys staying somewhat in character as gangsters[55:45]
She emphasizes how young she was-about 23-and that Grease 2 was her most recent credit, leaving her feeling inexperienced and terrified every night[54:41]

Audition process and cutting Al Pacino

Michelle recounts that she auditioned for about two months and kept getting worse as fear increased, knowing that Al Pacino did not initially want her for the part[56:58]
Brian De Palma eventually told her "it's just not going to work out" and she agreed, feeling both disappointed and relieved to be done with the stressful process[57:30]
About a month later, she was unexpectedly called back for a screen test; assuming she had no chance, she went in not caring and delivered what she calls her best work of the film[57:10]
• The test scene was the explosive restaurant blow-up where she sweeps dishes off the table; she fully committed, causing glasses and plates to shatter
After the take, there was blood everywhere and everyone rushed over assuming she had cut herself on the broken dishes, but it turned out she had cut Al Pacino's finger[58:06]
Michelle thought she had blown her chance by injuring him, but she believes that was actually the day Al decided she was right for the part, showing the value of going for it fully[58:40]

Post-interview debrief and Grease nostalgia

Hosts react to Michelle's appearance

After Michelle leaves, the hosts marvel at how cool, down-to-earth, and talented she is, with Jason emphasizing that her acting always overshadowed her extraordinary beauty[1:00:19]
They reiterate admiration for how her performances, not just looks, have defined her career and stuck with audiences[1:00:09]

Grease and childhood moviegoing memories

Sean worries aloud whether he talked about Grease 2 too much, and the others tease him that it was embarrassing and awkward[1:00:35]
Jason recalls seeing the original Grease seven times in a row in a valley theater with his sister when they were around 11 or 12, dramatizing how they stayed through multiple showings[1:01:27]
They end with Sean jokingly singing a Grease-like goodbye, with the others falling into familiar comedic roles as they close the episode's conversation[1:03:53]

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Letting go of perfectionism and constant self-critique can free you to be more present, instinctive, and ultimately better in your work.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in my work am I obsessively reviewing and critiquing myself in ways that actually undermine my confidence or spontaneity?
  • • How might my performance change if I trusted my preparation and instincts instead of constantly checking and rechecking my output?
  • • What is one specific area this week where I can deliberately stop over-monitoring myself and focus on being fully present in the moment instead?
2

Fear and high stakes can make you worse over time, whereas lowering your attachment to the outcome often unlocks your best performance.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In what situations do I notice myself getting progressively worse because I'm trying too hard to impress or succeed?
  • • How could I reframe an upcoming high-stakes event so that I care less about the result and more about fully committing in the moment?
  • • What practical ritual or phrase (like a mental "I don't give a shit") could I use before challenging situations to loosen my grip on the outcome?
3

Mistakes and forced improvisation are not detours from creativity but essential parts of making something more interesting and uniquely yours.

Reflection Questions:

  • • When was the last time a mistake in my work led to a better idea or solution than my original plan?
  • • How can I design my current projects so there is room to experiment, mess up, and then creatively fix things rather than over-planning every step?
  • • What is one "mistake" I'm currently trying to hide or erase that I could instead lean into and build around as a feature, not a flaw?
4

As your life evolves, your criteria for taking on work should evolve too, incorporating relationships, health, and time as seriously as professional opportunity.

Reflection Questions:

  • • If I re-evaluated my commitments from the perspective of my future self or future family, which projects would still feel worth the trade-offs?
  • • How might I adjust my current workload to better reflect what actually matters most to me outside of work?
  • • What is one boundary I could set in the next month to protect time for people or activities that are just as important as my career?
5

Choosing the right collaborators-especially strong directors or leaders-can turn average material into something great, while weak leadership can sink even the best ideas.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Looking at my current projects, where am I relying on strong leadership or collaboration, and where am I ignoring red flags about direction or fit?
  • • How could prioritizing the quality of the people I work with (over the apparent prestige of the project) improve my long-term results and satisfaction?
  • • What upcoming decision about a job, partner, or project should I revisit with the question: "Do I fully trust and respect the person leading this?"

Episode Summary - Notes by Hayden

"Michelle Pfeiffer"
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