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How I Built This with Guy Raz

Advice Line with Bill Creelman of Spindrift

with Bill Creelman, Josh Jankowicz, Zach Will, Jean-Pierre Parent

Published November 27, 2025
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About This Episode

Host Guy Raz and Spindrift founder Bill Creelman co-host an advice line, taking calls from three founders about their growth challenges. They discuss ingredient integrity and defensibility with a fast-growing pickle beer brand, hiring and marketing strategy for a flannel-aloha apparel startup, and focus and simplification for a kombucha company juggling multiple revenue streams. Bill also reflects on his own journey, emphasizing the importance of narrowing focus and solving the biggest problems rather than trying to do everything.

Topics Covered

Entrepreneurship Business growth and scaling Direct-to-consumer brands Marketing and customer education Branding and naming Hiring philosophy Scrappiness in business Small business financing Integrity in business Systems thinking

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • Sticking with real, minimally processed ingredients can be a painful short-term choice but a powerful long-term point of differentiation.
  • Killing a better-selling product line can make sense if it clarifies the brand and aligns with where consumer preferences are heading.
  • Early-stage founders often need to do uncomfortable front-facing work themselves and delay hiring until processes, voice, and margins are clearer.
  • A single highly distinctive SKU can support a sizable business if distribution is smart and the pitch is simple for retailers and distributors.
  • When overwhelmed by multiple business lines, simplifying down to the most profitable and stable channels can create the clarity needed for future growth.

Podcast Notes

Introduction and show format

Advice Line concept on How I Built This Lab

Guy Raz introduces the Advice Line segment as a place to help solve business challenges[2:40]
• Listeners building something can call in for advice on their businesses
Call-in details for entrepreneurs[2:50]
• Guy gives the call-in number and asks callers to leave a one-minute message about their business and issues they want help with

Re-introduction of guest co-host Bill Creelman

Guy welcomes back Bill Creelman, founder and chair of Spindrift[3:08]
• Bill has been on the show before to tell Spindrift's origin story and again during the pandemic
Summary of Bill's pre-Spindrift entrepreneurial journey[3:08]
• In the 1990s Bill sold smoked fish, jams, and ice cream before pivoting into cocktail mixers
• He started a small cocktail mixer brand that became a big brand and sold it to Diageo
• After selling, he spent a period drifting and figuring out what to do next
• He began mixing lemon juice and grapefruit juice into seltzer water, which led to the idea for Spindrift
Early Spindrift breakthrough with Trader Joe's[4:03]
• Guy notes that getting into Trader Joe's was Spindrift's first big step toward becoming an iconic brand
• Guy mentions he personally consumes many cans of Spindrift every day

Bill's view on his entrepreneurial path

Bill describes his journey as circuitous but enjoyable[4:22]
• He talks about trying to find seams from the consumer side and the business side

Recent Spindrift majority sale to Griffin

Guy notes that a majority stake in Spindrift was sold to private equity firm Griffin[4:27]
• The deal was reportedly valued around $650-700 million
Bill frames the deal as a partnership for the next growth stage[4:52]
• He says Griffin comes at an important time as they gear up for the next stage of growth
• Bill values having Griffin's input and new ideas at the table for growth

Spindrift product philosophy and strategic choices

Challenge of using real juice in shelf-stable sparkling water

Guy revisits earlier discussion on making shelf-stable seltzer with fresh juice instead of natural flavors[5:14]
• Most competitors used chemical or so-called natural flavor enhancers, which Bill refused to use
Bill's reasons for refusing natural flavors[5:56]
• He describes himself as stubborn about ingredients from a foodie perspective
• That stubbornness caused years of challenges building a supply chain and figuring out how to make it work
• Bill says laboring against the odds ultimately produced Spindrift's key point of difference
• He believes food and ingredients should be as unprocessed as possible

Decision to drop Spindrift's sugary soda line

Guy recalls that early Spindrift had two products: a no-sugar sparkling water and a sweeter soda with sugar[6:44]
• The sweeter product was actually outperforming the unsweetened one in sales
• Despite this, Bill chose to discontinue the sugary line
Bill's rationale for cutting the better-selling product[6:57]
• He worried it would confuse consumers to have two similar products, one with sugar and one without
• He drew on learnings from his previous brand Stirrings, concluding it is very hard to make two early-stage brands succeed and gain scale
• They believed sparkling water would eventually be recognized as just as delicious as the soda, though consumers would take time to get there
• Bill says they had no evidence from consumer studies; it was a belief based on observing early passionate sparkling water fans
Short-term revenue loss vs long-term positioning[8:02]
• Dropping the soda line meant cutting about half of Spindrift's revenue at that time
• Bill links the decision to rising consumer awareness about sugar around 2012-2014
• He says a small but intense group of sparkling water fans were "buying it hand over fist" and formed a clear "white hot center"
• Bill believes sugar is a one-dimensional flavor and that combining a little sweet with tart and other notes can make people not miss a big sugar hit

Caller 1: Donna's Pickle Beer - ingredient integrity and scaling

Introduction to Donna's Pickle Beer

Caller Josh Jankowicz describes Donna's Pickle Beer[9:34]
• He is owner-CEO based in West Hollywood, California
• Donna's Pickle Beer mixes pickle brine with a light, crisp lager and is named after his mom Donna
Product formulation and packaging[9:50]
• Josh explains they brew a light lager and make pickle brine about 20 miles from the brewery
• After brewing, they add the pickle brine and package it in nostalgic 1940s-style cans

Origin story of the pickle beer idea

Pandemic-era inspiration while working as a mailman[10:20]
• Josh had been running cocktail bars for years but became a mailman during the pandemic when bars shut down
• He missed being creative and started brainstorming business ideas while delivering mail
• The idea for Donna's Pickle Beer came to him on route; he sketched the can on paper and sent it to his future business partner, who loved it
Palm Springs pool moment[11:20]
• Josh recalls being in a pool at the Ace Hotel in Palm Springs with friends, drinking beer and eating pickles
• They were talking about ideas on his day off from mail delivery during a stressful period

Finding a brewery partner and early scale

Initial rejections and Pilot Project partnership[12:03]
• Josh contacted about 20-30 breweries, and all initially said no, viewing the idea as too weird or unworkable
• He eventually found Pilot Project, a brewery based in Chicago and Milwaukee, which immediately said yes
• They began R&D on the product together, which shifted Josh's reaction to rejection; "no" now motivates him
Distribution footprint and pricing[12:29]
• Donna's Pickle Beer is in 16 states, with plans to be in 19 by year-end pending contracts
• About 90% of sales are on-premise in bars, often placed alongside mainstream beers like Miller High Life
• Bars buy cases at about $39 (24-pack), roughly $1.60 per can, and typically sell for $7-8
• The beer also mixes well with whiskey, in micheladas, and pairs with foods like hot dogs
• They also have some retail distribution including chains like Whole Foods, Albertsons, Total Wine, BevMo, and Trader Joe's
Sales growth trajectory[15:50]
• Two years ago they started with 400 cases; now they sell between 5,000 and 10,000 cases per month
• They are in their first fundraising phase and about halfway through it

Ingredient sourcing dilemma: fresh brine vs flavor house

Josh's core question about scaling ingredients vs authenticity[13:07]
• Currently they use fresh pickle brine made with real dill and garlic, plus cucumber essence to reduce cucumber waste
• He is considering switching to an all-natural flavor house version that would be cheaper and more consistent
• He feels the fresh brine tastes better and aligns with the brand, but is more expensive and less consistent

Bill's advice on ingredients and defensibility

Recognizing a classic beverage scaling dilemma[14:14]
• Bill calls this the recurring beverage dilemma: you start with a great recipe and then face shortcut decisions on ingredients
• He praises the idea and says he personally loves pickles and pickle products, seeing real potential
Argument for maintaining real brine as a differentiator[16:42]
• Bill believes what is hard now about making real brine will become Josh's point of difference later
• He warns that someone will eventually launch a copycat pickle beer using flavor shortcuts
• Having a unique brine recipe with all ingredients called out on the label will make the product harder to replicate
• This uniqueness will matter when bars or retailers choose between Donna's and potential competitors

Strategy around SKU focus and distribution

Bill's view on building with one standout SKU[17:42]
• Bill suggests doing as much as possible with a single product before expanding
• He cites Corona as an example of a beer brand that essentially built a large business with one SKU for many years
• He notes that with one SKU, distributors only need to allocate one pallet position, which they appreciate
• If the product delivers on flavor, Bill thinks there's enough audience to sustain a significant business on that one SKU
Brand protection and speed to market[18:55]
• Bill stresses moving quickly to lock up distributors and secure placements
• He suggests aiming for exclusivity where possible, such as being the exclusive pickle beer with certain distributors
• He notes that social media and virality now accelerate awareness, so being the first and only player matters
• The goal is for there to be only one pickle beer player in the category in buyers' minds

Post-call reflection on pickle beer and innovation

Guy and Bill reflect on novelty and category innovation[20:07]
• Guy says it's rare to see a product concept he has never seen before, and this is one of them
• Bill calls it a great mashup and says the beer category is looking for new innovation
• Bill reiterates that beer is a big enough category to support a large business on one product

Caller 2: Kona Brand flannel-aloha shirts - hiring and marketing

Introduction to Kona Brand and product concept

Caller Zach Will describes Kona Brand[25:24]
• Zach is from Marshfield, Massachusetts and runs Kona Brand, an apparel company
• They make flannel shirts with tropical aloha designs, replacing plaid/check patterns with Hawaiian-style prints
Mashup of New England flannel and Hawaiian aesthetics[26:04]
• Zach explains that the shirts feel like traditional soft flannels but feature vibrant tropical colors and designs
• Guy frames it as a mashup between New England and Hawaii

Origin as a high school project and early funding

High school marketing class assignment[26:38]
• At 17, Zach was assigned to create a business idea based on a problem New Englanders face
• His problem: he owns many aloha shirts but can only wear them 2-4 months per year before it becomes flannel season
• He realized flannels are worn almost year-round in New England, so he combined Hawaiian patterns with flannel shirts
Transition from school project to full-time business[27:35]
• Zach is now 25 and graduated from college two years ago
• He continued Kona Brand through his time at the University of Connecticut
• He entered multiple grant competitions similar to Shark Tank and received $19,000 from UConn to start the brand
• After graduating, he took the leap to make Kona Brand his full-time job

Current business performance and channels

Revenue and seasonality[28:27]
• Kona Brand has just passed $140,000 in revenue for the year so far
• Zach expects to reach $300,000 in revenue by year-end
• He has found that 80-85% of yearly revenue comes during the holiday season
Sales channels: online vs in-person[28:38]
• He uses digital marketing, including Meta and Instagram ads, which helped the brand start to scale
• He participates in craft shows, music festivals, and weekend markets to put flannels directly in consumers' hands
• Last year, online DTC and show-based DTC were roughly 50-50, leaning slightly toward in-person
• After starting paid ads, the mix shifted to about 75-80% online and 19-20% in-person, with some small wholesale

Hiring a marketing manager and founder constraints

Experience with first marketing manager hire[29:19]
• Zach recently focused on hiring a marketing manager, interviewing 12 people and selecting one he thought fit
• After about a month, he concluded they did not partner well and they parted ways
• The experience made him hesitant to hire again
Zach's question about part-time hiring[29:40]
• He asks how to hire the right person for a part-time role like marketing manager, typically full-time, without burning cash and momentum
• He notes he lacks budget for a full-time hire and is stretched doing everything himself
Clarifying the role's priorities[32:13]
• Zach wants someone to run social media and paid advertising
• He describes himself as numbers-oriented and analytical, finding creative work a struggle
• He also wants help engaging micro-influencers and generating ideas for creative content

Bill's advice: founder-led sales and selective outsourcing

Encouraging founders to do uncomfortable front-facing work[33:19]
• Bill says founders should do as much as they can early on, even in areas where they feel uncomfortable
• He believes Zach is probably great at selling the product and that only he can talk about it as he does
• Bill argues that sitting behind an Excel spreadsheet will not sell more Kona shirts
Delaying hires and automating back-end tasks[33:37]
• Bill encourages Zach to keep pushing without hiring as long as possible, while gradually offloading back-end tasks
• He suggests automating or outsourcing things like third-party fulfillment and other behind-the-scenes work that consumers don't see
• At roughly $300,000 in revenue, bringing on an employee could consume a significant portion of profit
• Bill notes there are third-party services that can help Zach reach the next level without the fixed costs of a full-time hire
• He acknowledges Zach is young and likely risk-averse, and recommends testing and learning on his own capital while keeping overhead low

Guy's advice: tapping student talent and documenting brand voice

Finding an early-career marketer via university networks

Leveraging UConn connections[35:29]
• Guy suggests Zach contact his professors at the University of Connecticut to ask for referrals to strong graduating students
• He proposes that a recent graduate might take on social media and creative work as an initial gig, potentially remotely
• Guy notes that younger people have powerful tools for creating social media assets

Creating a brand Bible and process documentation

Importance of documenting what works[36:16]
• Guy advises Zach to document what he does: what works, how he writes copy, and the tone of the brand
• He suggests building a living document or brand Bible that logs audiences that resonate and defines brand voice
• This playbook would help future hires quickly understand how to represent the brand
Spindrift's own brand Bible[37:05]
• Bill confirms that Spindrift has a brand Bible used by new team members
• He notes that new marketing hires immediately ask what voice to adopt, which should reflect the founder's early work

Closing thoughts on Kona Brand

Guy's enthusiasm for the product concept[37:55]
• Guy praises the idea and notes that a Hawaiian shirt in January in Marshfield only makes sense if it's flannel
• Bill comments that New England is hard to dress for due to rapidly changing seasons, making the concept appealing
• Bill shares he grew up in Western Massachusetts and spent 15 years in Fall River and New Bedford, where he previously received grants

Caller 3: Soma Kombucha - choosing focus among multiple revenue streams

Introduction to Soma Kombucha and taproom model

Jean-Pierre Parent introduces Soma Kombucha[40:34]
• Jean-Pierre is based in Portland, Oregon and founded Soma Kombucha in 2009
• They sell kombucha to stores through distributors and operate five kombucha taprooms across the Pacific Northwest
Automated taprooms concept[40:59]
• Some Washington taprooms are unstaffed and automated: customers open the door with their phones, serve themselves, and check out on their phones

Founding story and early community focus

Family history with kombucha[41:33]
• Jean-Pierre's mother brewed kombucha in the 1980s and experienced notable health benefits
• The entire family became interested in kombucha as a result
Yoga teaching and community-building[41:33]
• Jean-Pierre was teaching yoga and moved to Portland
• He brought kombucha after yoga classes to encourage students to stay, gather, and build community instead of leaving shyly

Recent business challenges and diversification

Impact of COVID-19 and supply chain issues[42:08]
• The last few years have been rough due to COVID-related pressures and supply chain problems
• Several distributors went out of business
• Soma changed its packaging multiple times, which was challenging and resulted in lost shelf space
• Taproom sales are down and expenses are higher
Revenue decline and new revenue streams[43:02]
• The company had done about $1.5 million per year for several years, but revenue has dwindled in recent years
• In the last six months, Jean-Pierre began contract manufacturing beverages for other brands
• He also provides beverage development and R&D services, which he enjoys but notes are typically one-time projects

Core question: which revenue channel to prioritize

Jean-Pierre's ask[43:52]
• He lists four revenue channels: distributor sales to stores, kombucha taprooms, contract manufacturing, and R&D consulting
• He asks which channel is best to focus his limited efforts on

Bill's exploration of goals and constraints

Long-term vision and personal needs[44:30]
• Bill asks where Jean-Pierre sees himself in 10 years and what success looks like
• Jean-Pierre wants to do fewer jobs and do them better, and to stop stressing over payroll and rent every two weeks
• He recently became the solo father of an eight-year-old special needs child and needs the company to function so he can focus on his son's needs
Passion vs performance of channels[45:19]
• Six months earlier, he would have chosen taprooms as his favorite channel
• He loves building taprooms, interacting with customers, quickly launching new flavors, and curating other wellness products
• However, local business neighbors are closing, and taproom sales are down despite starting marketing efforts
• A new Seattle taproom is only barely breaking even after eight months, unlike earlier taprooms that were profitable within three months
Margins and reliability of R&D and contract manufacturing[45:55]
• Margins are high for R&D consulting but low for contract manufacturing, though contract work is consistent
• Contract manufacturing carries challenges around managing founder clients' expectations when their unproven products underperform in production

Guidance: simplify to amplify and reset the business

Bill's "simplify to amplify" framework[47:04]
• Bill shares an internal expression: "simplify to amplify"
• He suggests distilling the business down to its simplest profitable form and then rebuilding from there
• He notes he spent about 15 years in a similar figuring-it-out phase before really being able to focus
• Simplification involves quieting expense overruns and "noise" from less viable business lines
Possible path: rely on consulting/mfg as baseline[49:19]
• Bill acknowledges that consulting and contract manufacturing may not be Jean-Pierre's ultimate destination
• But they can provide a baseline of revenue to keep lights on while he pauses higher-risk lines like some taprooms or store distribution
• Once stabilized, he can then build back toward a focused brand or product strategy

Reframing Soma as a probiotics/wild fermentation business

Guy's view: Soma is in the probiotics business[48:49]
• Guy notes that instead of just kombucha, he thinks of Soma as operating in the probiotics and gut microbiome space
• He observes the probiotics market growing in products like yogurt
• He suggests Jean-Pierre's 16 years of experience in probiotics could support consulting for small food brands
Jean-Pierre's differentiation: wild probiotics and long fermentation[50:37]
• Soma's kombucha has "billions more" probiotics due to a special long fermentation process
• Jean-Pierre distinguishes lab-grown probiotic capsules from wild-fermented products
• He believes wild fermented foods are more beneficial but harder to quantify in probiotic counts
• He notes customers tend to prioritize taste and want something delicious that also happens to be healthy
• Soma has focused on taste too and has won "best kombucha in Portland" multiple times
• He has been very focused on kombucha and could move into other wild-fermented products, though he sees that as its own challenge
Growing interest in wild probiotics[50:49]
• Guy agrees that wild probiotics are important and mentions brands emphasizing them
• He calls wild probiotics a potentially interesting next step for Jean-Pierre
• Bill says the world is opening up to the way Jean-Pierre has been thinking for a long time

Need to reduce complexity before seizing new opportunities

Balancing multiple businesses and personal responsibilities[52:04]
• Bill reiterates that simplification is necessary because it's hard to see opportunities while running four or five businesses
• He notes that parenting an eight-year-old with special needs also requires significant attention
• The more Jean-Pierre can quiet noise and reduce division of focus, the more opportunistic he can be with the next big idea
Partial answer on focusing on consulting and R&D[51:37]
• When asked directly if he should focus on consulting and R&D, Bill emphasizes the need to cover bills with higher-margin and consistent streams
• He suggests pausing riskier lines so Jean-Pierre can evaluate the wild probiotic opportunity once operations are calmer

Closing reflections from Bill on focus and problem selection

Advice Bill would give his younger entrepreneurial self

Do not try to do everything[53:57]
• Bill says he would tell his past self not to try to do everything
• He reflects that his journey took a long time, some of it valuable but some avoidable
Be selective and focus on the biggest problems[54:09]
• Bill believes many issues could have been solved sooner by not attempting to wrap his arms around every problem
• He recommends being more selective early on and focusing on solving the big problems, trusting solutions will emerge on the other side

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Holding a hard line on ingredient integrity, even when it increases cost and complexity, can create a defensible point of difference that becomes more valuable as the category crowds.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your product or service are you tempted to take a shortcut that might weaken your long-term differentiation?
  • • How would your brand positioning change if you committed to a stricter standard on one key aspect of quality?
  • • What concrete step could you take this month to make your offering more authentically aligned with the values you claim in your marketing?
2

Simplifying your product line-sometimes by killing a better-selling SKU-can strengthen brand clarity and align you with emerging consumer trends, even at the cost of short-term revenue.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which of your current offerings create confusion for customers or distract from your core value proposition?
  • • How might your growth trajectory look different if you focused all your resources on the product with the strongest long-term fit rather than the one with the highest short-term sales?
  • • What is one product, feature, or initiative you could pause or sunset this quarter to sharpen your focus?
3

Early-stage founders often need to personally handle uncomfortable front-facing work like sales and basic marketing, while offloading back-end tasks and delaying full-time hires until the economics and playbooks are clearer.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What front-facing activities are you currently avoiding that, if you owned them for the next six months, could materially move your business forward?
  • • How could you redesign your workload by outsourcing or automating back-end tasks to free up more time for high-impact founder work?
  • • What minimum level of revenue, margin, or documented process would you require before making your next full-time hire?
4

When your business sprawls into multiple channels or models, "simplify to amplify"-narrowing down to a small number of profitable, reliable streams-can restore clarity and create the foundation for future opportunity.

Reflection Questions:

  • • If you had to rebuild your business from scratch tomorrow using only one or two of your current revenue streams, which would you choose and why?
  • • Where are complexity and divided focus currently causing you the most stress or operational drag?
  • • What specific experiments or lines of business could you pause for six to twelve months to test whether simplifying improves your results and peace of mind?
5

Novel products gain lasting advantage not just from being first or weird, but from combining a distinctive recipe or process with smart distribution moves that make you the default choice in your niche.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In what ways is your product truly hard to copy beyond branding and packaging, and how could you strengthen that defensibility?
  • • How might your distribution strategy change if your goal was to become the synonymous brand for your niche in buyers' minds?
  • • What agreements, territories, or channel relationships could you prioritize over the next year to entrench your position before copycats arrive?

Episode Summary - Notes by Quinn

Advice Line with Bill Creelman of Spindrift
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