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Hidden Brain

Reframing the Battle of Wills

with Stuart Ablon

Published October 27, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

Host Shankar Vedantam talks with psychologist Stuart Ablon about why attempts to change others' behavior often fail when we assume the problem is a lack of motivation or willpower. Ablon explains how many challenging behaviors arise from lagging cognitive, emotional, and social skills, and describes his collaborative problem solving approach that emphasizes empathy, identifying unmet concerns, and jointly generating solutions. He illustrates the method with cases from psychiatric hospitals, juvenile detention, families, and workplaces, and discusses research showing it reduces challenging behavior and builds skills in both the people being helped and the helpers themselves.

Topics Covered

Parenting and child development Relationships Perspective shift Mental health Therapy Trauma Prison system Workplace dynamics Emotional intelligence Impulse control

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • Ablon argues that many people who behave badly are not lacking motivation but struggling with lagging skills in areas like language, working memory, emotion regulation, and social thinking.
  • The philosophy "people do well if they can" reframes misbehavior from a will problem to a skill problem, opening up more empathic and effective ways to help.
  • Traditional rewards-and-punishments (Plan A) often escalate conflict, damage relationships, and fail to build the underlying skills people need to change.
  • Collaborative problem solving (Plan B) has three ingredients: deeply understanding the other person's concerns, clearly expressing your own concerns, and then jointly brainstorming realistic, mutually satisfactory solutions.
  • Empathy in this model means working hard to understand another person's perspective, not agreeing with it, and relies on specific techniques like clarifying questions, reflective listening, and reassurance.
  • Letting the other person propose the first solution increases their ownership, reveals their problem-solving skills, and provides a chance to practice those skills.
  • A case from a maximum-security psychiatric hospital shows that even highly distressed, psychotic patients can engage in collaborative problem solving when their concerns are taken seriously.
  • Research in children's treatment centers suggests collaborative problem solving not only reduces challenging behavior but also builds self-regulation and cognitive flexibility.
  • Adults who learn and use collaborative problem solving themselves improve in empathy, perspective taking, and flexibility, demonstrating that these skills can grow across the lifespan.
  • Ablon contends that shifting away from punitive, will-focused approaches toward skill-focused, collaborative methods could produce large human and financial benefits across systems like schools, hospitals, and corrections.

Podcast Notes

Introduction: frustration with others' behavior and the promise of a new approach

Common everyday conflicts that feel intractable

Host describes familiar scenarios where others don't change despite repeated requests[0:02]
• Examples include a partner leaving dirty dishes in the sink, a child melting down in a store, and a coworker missing deadlines despite reminders
Emotional reactions to repeated failed influence attempts[0:21]
• People snap, roll their eyes and do it themselves, or give up in frustration
• Resentment builds and the instinct is to push harder with more reminders, rules, and consequences
Framing of the episode's core question[0:46]
• We tend to label others as stubborn, defiant, or oppositional when they don't change
• The episode will explore research on why common techniques to change behavior are often ineffective and what works better for lasting change

Early experiences that shaped Ablon's view of behavior and control

First job on an inpatient child psychiatry unit

Context of the unit and Ablon's role as a teenager[3:57]
• He worked on an inpatient psychiatry unit for kids and adolescents whose behavior was so out of control they might hurt themselves or others and were often admitted against their will
• On his first day, supervising kids on the playground, a young man targeted him as the new staffer, hurled insults, spat in his face, and kicked him in the groin
Introduction to physical restraints[5:08]
• A senior staff member intervened, put the boy in a physical hold from behind, and used the situation to give Ablon his first on-the-job lesson in how to restrain a child
• Ablon recalls the experience as awful and still gets emotional recounting it

Unexpected apology from the aggressive boy

Jason's apology the next day[5:58]
• The boy, Jason, called him back as he tried to hurry by his room and said he was sorry for what he had said and done, explaining that he loses control and doesn't know what he's saying in those moments
• Ablon accepted the apology but was deeply struck by Jason's clear regret and sense that he couldn't control his behavior
Revelatory aspect of the interaction[6:56]
• The contrast between Jason's violent outburst and his later remorse highlighted that he did not want to act that way, suggesting a problem of control rather than intent

Encounter with a violent offender and insights about impulse control

Interviewing a young man incarcerated for attempted murder

Setting and Ablon's inexperience in corrections[8:01]
• He interviewed a young man in a correctional facility who had shot someone and was there for attempted murder, sitting very close to him on a bench
The "stupidest question" exchange[8:49]
• Ablon asked what the man was thinking when he did it; the man called it the stupidest question anyone had ever asked him
• When Ablon asked why, the man replied, "Do you think if I was thinking I would have done that, you moron?"
Connection to research on aggression[9:52]
• The incident reminded Ablon of the distinction between proactive (planned) aggression and reactive aggression, noting that most severe aggressive acts are poorly regulated responses to frustration rather than premeditated plans

Homicide research illustrating impulsivity

Chicago homicide cases and missed opportunities to pause[10:17]
• Vedantam cites Harold Pollack's work in Chicago showing many homicides stem from interactions gone wrong where tempers escalated and someone with access to a gun used it
• Pollack concluded that if people could pause, take a breath, and count to ten, lives and futures could be radically different
Definition and importance of impulse control[10:53]
• Ablon defines impulse control as taking a few seconds to consider the likely consequences of your actions before acting
• He notes that without impulse control, if everyone said and did the first thing that came to mind, the world would be an ugly place
• He suggests imagining a day where you acted on every impulse to see how disturbing that would be, even if it might be briefly amusing

Behavior, blame, and the limits of rewards and punishments

Our default tendency to moralize bad behavior

Assumptions about "bad people" and punitive responses[11:40]
• Vedantam notes that we often interpret bad behavior as evidence someone is a bad person, stubborn, or not trying hard enough, and respond with rewards and punishments or exhortations to try harder

Origins of the skill vs. will framework

Collaboration with Ross Greene and research on explosive children

Postdoctoral work and The Explosive Child[14:56]
• At Mass General Hospital, Ablon worked with psychologist Ross Greene, who was writing "The Explosive Child" based on decades of research on kids with explosive behavior
• Research showed these children had deficits in neurocognitive or thinking skills, leading Greene and Ablon to frame their difficulties as lacking skill rather than will

Why we default to seeing misbehavior as a will problem

Frustration, control, and blame[16:38]
• Ablon says we get quickly frustrated when people don't do what we want, and frustration impairs access to the "smart" part of our brain, making us reach for power and control
• Blaming others and assuming they lack motivation absolves us of responsibility and obscures our role in the interaction or context that may be triggering the behavior

Lagging skills in language, communication, and processing

Teen patient who always said "I don't care"

Pattern of shutting down questions[19:02]
• A teenage boy responded to nearly any question with "I don't care" or "I don't give a ****", often before Ablon could even finish asking
Experimenting with giving him time to think[20:01]
• Ablon pointed out how quickly the boy replied and asked if they could try letting him think before answering; he silently counted to about 30-45 seconds
• After the pause, the boy began to share details about a school incident, revealing he did in fact care
Revealed explanation for "I don't care"[21:08]
• When asked why he always said he didn't care, the boy eventually explained that no one waited long enough for him to think, so he cut off conversations early
• His language and processing pace made it hard to formulate responses quickly, so "I don't care" functioned as a defensive shortcut

Language skills and the "terrible twos"

Why behavior improves as communication grows[22:37]
• Ablon notes that two-year-olds are inflexible, easily frustrated, and have poor problem-solving largely because they are just learning to communicate
• As children become better at understanding what's bothering them, putting it into words, and engaging in back-and-forth dialogue, their behavior typically improves

Misinterpreting silence or delay as defiance

Stonewalling vs. processing difficulties[23:35]
• Adults or kids who go quiet when asked something may be thinking rather than being passive-aggressive, but observers often jump to blaming interpretations
• Vedantam connects this to a listener who felt stonewalled by her husband in conversations, and Ablon suggests adopting a "skill, not will" lens before assuming intentional stonewalling

Cognitive skills: working memory, attention, and executive functioning

What is working memory and why it matters

Definition of working memory[25:06]
• Working memory is described as the "cognitive shelf" where we temporarily hold information we need to keep accessible for ongoing tasks
Working memory demands in conversation[25:27]
• During a conversation, a listener must juggle what the speaker is saying, what they think about it, how they might respond, and how the other person might react to their response, all while the speaker continues talking

Working memory, attention, and organization

Interrelated executive skills[26:49]
• Ablon notes that working memory is tightly linked to attentional skills and organizational skills, all part of what neuropsychologists call executive functioning, the "CEO" of the brain
Messy room example[27:25]
• He describes a boy whose room was in chaos; when told to clean it, the boy focused on dusting action figures on a shelf instead of taking the quick high-impact step of putting laundry in a basket
• The boy struggled to think big-picture and prioritize tasks, illustrating an organizational skill deficit rather than simple disobedience

Analogy to vision problems and neuropsych testing

Physical vs. cognitive limitations[28:18]
• Vedantam shares his mother's experience of struggling in class until myopia was diagnosed, noting that physical limitations are easier to detect and address than cognitive ones
• Ablon says that if you test 100 people with behavioral struggles and 100 without, neuropsychological evaluations reveal large skill differences like an optometrist's eye exam would
Motivation cannot overcome true inability[28:47]
• He notes that offering huge incentives or severe consequences can't make him read tiny print when his vision won't allow it; increased motivation without ability just increases frustration
• When we try to motivate people to do things they truly struggle to do, we also imply we think they're not trying hard enough, which can damage self-esteem, especially in children

Emotion regulation and social thinking skills

Emotion regulation as a skill set

Feeling vs. thinking[31:03]
• Ablon describes a negative correlation between intense feeling and clear thinking: the more emotionally flooded we are, the less clearly we think
• Emotion regulation skills allow people to tamp down emotional reactions-whether to frustration, anger, excitement, or worry-so they can think straight and solve problems

Social thinking skills and feedback loops

Basic and advanced social skills[32:58]
• Social thinking skills include starting conversations, joining existing groups without disrupting them, and reading how one's behavior affects others
Broken feedback loops and empathy[32:43]
• Some people have a "broken feedback loop" and fail to register others' reactions, so they may continue behaviors that annoy or alienate people
• Perspective taking and empathy are identified as among the most complex social thinking skills

Core philosophy: people do well if they can

Contrasting "people do well if they can" with "people do well if they want to"

Definition of the philosophy[33:28]
• The guiding idea is that kids (and adults) do well if they can, meaning people generally want to do well and will if they have the skills to meet expectations
Implications of assuming a will problem[34:48]
• The "people do well if they want to" view implies that if someone isn't doing well, the solution is to make them want to behave better, usually via rewards and punishments
• Ablon argues that if people could meet expectations they would, so persistent problems should prompt us to investigate what's getting in their way instead of trying to increase motivation

Reframing relationships when you see behavior as a skill problem

Impact on how helpers see their role[34:31]
• Vedantam notes that shifting from "how do I get this into their thick skull" to "how could I help them build a missing skill" radically changes his sense of what he can do for people in his life
• Ablon says the shift toward seeing skill gaps positions you in a more empathic, nonjudgmental stance, which is the bedrock for helping

Three plans: A, C, and B for handling challenging behavior

Plan A: imposing your will

Definition and limits of Plan A[38:37]
• Plan A is when you try to make someone do what you want, whether harshly or gently, typically through rewards and consequences
• Across settings-from preschools to correctional facilities-people report that imposing will often escalates poor behavior, fails to reliably get expectations met, doesn't build rapport, and doesn't build skills

Plan C: strategically dropping expectations

What Plan C is and isn't[40:15]
• Plan C means intentionally deciding to drop an expectation for now or to solve the problem the way the other person wants, in order to keep the peace
• It is not the same as "giving in" after a failed attempt at Plan A; that would be failed Plan A followed by bailing, whereas Plan C is deliberate and strategic
• Plan C can reduce challenging behavior by removing triggers, though it does not solve the underlying problem or get your expectations met

The A-C split and the need for Plan B

Common pattern of polarized responses[41:08]
• In many homes and workplaces, one person tends to favor Plan A and another Plan C, creating a polarized "AC split"
• Ablon emphasizes that Plan B is not just a compromise between A and C but a distinct third option

Plan B: Collaborative problem solving

Overview of the three ingredients[42:09]
• Ingredient 1: Empathy-understanding the other person's concern, perspective, or what is hard about a situation
• Ingredient 2: Defining your concern-sharing your own perspective and what you're worried about
• Ingredient 3: Invitation-working together to find a mutually satisfactory, realistic, and doable solution that addresses both sets of concerns
• Plan B is done with, not to, the other person, and the steps should be transparent rather than hidden tactics

Deep dive on empathy as the first ingredient

Why genuine curiosity is hard and necessary

Emotional courage to hear real obstacles[43:11]
• Vedantam notes it takes courage to truly ask what is getting in someone's way, because we might discover a genuine obstacle rather than simple stubbornness
• Ablon underscores that empathy is about understanding, not agreeing or disagreeing, and that you can fully disagree with someone's perspective while still empathizing with it

Four concrete behaviors that constitute effective empathy

Clarifying questions and educated guesses[44:10]
• Effective empathy involves asking many clarifying questions like a good detective, and, when information isn't forthcoming, making educated guesses about what might be going on
Reflective listening[44:51]
• Whenever the person shares anything-either spontaneously or in response to a guess-the helper reflects back in their own words what they heard, to show listening and check understanding
Reassurance and stance of curiosity[46:02]
• Reassurance involves statements like "You're not in trouble" or "I'm just trying to understand" to signal this is not a sneaky form of Plan A
• Ablon highlights the importance of suspending preconceived judgments and maintaining a genuinely curious stance throughout the empathy phase

Second and third ingredients: sharing your concern and inviting solutions

Sharing your concerns without negating theirs

Avoiding "but" and using "and"[47:04]
• Ablon advises summarizing what you've heard, then saying "and here's my concern" rather than "but", since "but" implies your perspective overrides theirs
Interpreting negative reactions as skill signals[48:11]
• If the other person reacts badly when you share your concern, it may signal difficulties with perspective taking or emotion regulation, or a history of experiences where empathy was followed by Plan A

Invitation step: letting them take first crack at solutions

Reasons to have them propose ideas first[48:19]
• Inviting the other person to suggest solutions gives them ownership and autonomy, making them feel like a co-author rather than having a solution imposed
• It also reveals their current problem-solving skills and provides practice in generating solutions that are mutually satisfactory, realistic, and doable
Analogy to teaching a child to ride a bike[49:58]
• Just as watching someone else ride a bike does not teach you to ride, watching someone else solve problems does not build your own problem-solving skills; you must actively practice

Guarding against manipulative "tricky Plan A"

Plan B requires genuine openness about solutions[50:55]
• If you already know the solution you want and are merely using these steps to steer the person there, you're doing a tricky form of Plan A, not true collaborative problem solving
• Instead, you should be clear on your concern and hold it firmly, but be flexible about how it is addressed so that any acceptable solution must also address the other person's concern

Humility and reciprocal listening

Recognizing you don't have all the answers[52:01]
• Vedantam notes that many of us are overconfident about knowing why others behave as they do and what they should do, which can prevent us from asking and learning
• Ablon observes that if you want someone to listen to you, the most effective strategy is to listen deeply to them first

Applying collaborative problem solving in a maximum-security psychiatric hospital

Background on the Oregon State Hospital context

History and conditions at the hospital[55:25]
• The Oregon State Hospital, featured in "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest", is a large state psychiatric hospital with over a thousand patients, many found guilty except for insanity
• Security features resemble a correctional facility: multiple locked doors, maximum security design, and fixtures that can't be turned into weapons
High levels of violence and staff distress[56:11]
• Staff were being assaulted at alarming rates, and both patients and staff were suffering frequent injuries
• Staff even created a social media page to share photos of their injuries to draw attention to the severity of the problem

Introducing collaborative problem solving amid skepticism

Receptivity and need to shift mindsets[57:45]
• Many staff were receptive because they saw firsthand that rewards and punishments were ineffective and made the job miserable, but they were understandably skeptical of new ideas
• Ablon stresses that before teaching new techniques, he had to help people understand why a different approach was needed by shifting them from a will-based to a skill-based view of behavior

Case study: middle-aged man with schizophrenia refusing group treatment

Prior attempts with Plan A and Plan C[59:13]
• The man refused to leave his unit to attend therapeutic groups in the treatment mall; staff tried coercive approaches, tying privileges to attendance, which led to several assaults when they tried to move him
• Eventually staff resorted to Plan C, essentially giving up on his participation because forcing him down created too much volatility
Nurse uses proactive Plan B[59:13]
• A nurse, trained in collaborative problem solving, met with him proactively (not during a crisis) and opened by assuring him she would not force him to go to group
• She repeatedly reassured him and used reflective listening as he initially responded with "You're not going to make me go"
Uncovering his delusional concern[1:01:52]
• Gradually, he revealed he would not sit in a small room with many people because he believed they could hear his every thought due to brainwaves emitting from his head
• The nurse did not argue with the delusion; she reflected it back, acknowledged his fear, and said she would not want everyone hearing her thoughts either
Stating her own concern and inviting solutions[1:03:12]
• After summarizing his concern, she added her own: worrying that he wouldn't benefit from treatment if he never attended groups
• When he again said she wouldn't make him go, she reassured him she would not force him to do something he found terrible and returned to her concern about his treatment
• She then invited him to think of a way he could attend groups without fearing that others would hear his thoughts
Tinfoil and beanie solution[1:03:32]
• He suggested putting tinfoil on his head to block the brainwaves; she responded, "That's an idea, let's think about it together," and explored whether it would work and cause any problems
• She voiced a concern that others might think it odd or make fun of him; he proposed putting the tinfoil under his beanie so only he and the nurse would know
• The agreed solution allowed him to feel protected from mind-reading while attending treatment without social fallout, so both his concern and hers were addressed
Outcomes of the collaboration[1:04:49]
• A man who had refused treatment for years began attending groups, challenging behavior decreased, and rapport between him and staff was strengthened
• Ablon emphasizes this was not magic but careful application of the three ingredients of Plan B

Evidence on skill development and reciprocal benefits

Study at a children's center in Ottawa

Behavioral and skill outcomes for children[1:06:13]
• In an Ottawa study, children whose caregivers used collaborative problem solving showed greater decreases in challenging behavior than those receiving other treatments across the province
• These children also developed improved self-regulation skills like impulse control and cognitive flexibility, demonstrating that the approach builds underlying skills

Skill gains for adults using collaborative problem solving

Parents, teachers, and others improve too[1:07:54]
• Research from Ablon's group shows that adults who learn and practice collaborative problem solving also improve in problem-solving ability, perspective taking, empathy, and cognitive flexibility
• This suggests that even when the adult brain is less malleable, these skills can still be developed, "teaching an old dog new tricks"

Dyadic nature of change and self-empathy

Mutual work and granting oneself grace[1:08:49]
• Vedantam notes that in many situations, both parties may need to change, so the helper should also be curious and empathic toward themselves
• Ablon reiterates that "people do well if they can" applies to everyone and encourages giving ourselves grace, recognizing we're all doing the best we can given our skills and circumstances

Addressing skepticism, boundaries, accountability, and systemic implications

Question of truly "bad actors" and limits of the model

Shift in staff beliefs at a juvenile facility[1:10:19]
• A senior guard at a juvenile detention facility initially thought the model applied to about 5% of youths, viewing the rest as hardened criminals; a few years later, he revised his estimate to 95%
Trauma and chronic stress as contributors[1:11:36]
• For the small residual group of very difficult cases, Ablon suggests they likely were not born that way but have histories of chronic stress and trauma that altered brain development
• Exposure to toxic stress particularly affects brain regions that underlie the very skills-like emotion regulation and executive functioning-discussed throughout the episode

Misconception that Plan B means no limits

Setting expectations while changing how you respond to problems[1:12:10]
• Ablon clarifies that collaborative problem solving is not "anything goes"; expectations and boundaries remain, but you have more than just two options (impose will or give up) when problems arise

Rethinking accountability and consequences

Consequences vs. true responsibility[1:13:37]
• People often equate receiving a consequence with taking responsibility, but Ablon calls this a "lame" form of accountability focused on suffering through punishment
• He argues that the most powerful form of accountability is having someone be on the hook for solving the problem so it does not keep occurring

Origins and limitations of rewards-and-punishments systems

Operant psychology and token economies[1:14:32]
• Our heavy reliance on rewards and consequences in schools, corrections, and other systems stems from operant psychology and research on contingency management and token economies
What rewards and consequences can and cannot do[1:14:35]
• Research shows rewards and consequences are good at clarifying expectations and motivating people to meet them, but not good at building neurocognitive skills, nurturing helping relationships, or helping people stay calm under frustration
• Thousands of studies show a strong negative correlation between external tangible rewards and intrinsic motivation: the more you motivate externally, the more you erode internal drive

Moral and practical stakes of changing our approach

Evidence-based moral argument[1:16:10]
• Ablon frames "people do well if they can" as both a compassionate philosophy and a science-based view grounded in our understanding of the brain
• He argues that moving away from punitive interventions when people are struggling with skill deficits could save billions of dollars and, more importantly, many human lives

Conclusion and credits

Guest's work and sign-off

Mention of Ablon's book and domains of application[1:16:58]
• Vedantam notes that Ablon is the author of "Changeable: How Collaborative Problem-Solving Changes Lives at Home, at School, and at Work" and thanks him for the conversation
Host closing[1:19:34]
• Vedantam closes the episode and references the production team and his role, before signing off

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Reframing misbehavior from a will problem to a skill problem ("people do well if they can") unlocks more accurate diagnoses of what's going wrong and creates room for empathy and effective help.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your life are you currently assuming someone "doesn't care" or "isn't trying" that might actually be struggling with missing skills?
  • • How would your approach change if you started with the hypothesis that this person would do well if they could?
  • • What is one recurring conflict this week where you could explicitly ask yourself, "What skill might be lagging here?" before reacting?
2

Traditional rewards-and-punishments are good at signaling expectations and boosting short-term compliance, but they are poor tools for building underlying cognitive and emotional skills or healthy relationships.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In what situations do you rely most on threats, consequences, or incentives to get others to do things?
  • • How might those strategies be undermining intrinsic motivation or trust in those relationships over time?
  • • What is one context (home, work, or school) where you could experiment with reducing external rewards/punishments and focusing on skill-building instead?
3

Effective empathy is an active process of detective work-asking clarifying questions, making gentle guesses, reflecting back, and reassuring-aimed at understanding, not agreeing with, another person's perspective.

Reflection Questions:

  • • When was the last time you truly tried to understand someone you disagreed with, rather than preparing your rebuttal?
  • • How could you incorporate more clarifying questions and reflective listening into one challenging conversation you anticipate this week?
  • • What specific reassurance could you offer someone you're in conflict with to signal that you're seeking understanding, not setting up a punishment?
4

Inviting others to propose the first solution and co-author a plan both increases their ownership and gives them practice in problem solving, which strengthens the very skills needed for long-term change.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where do you tend to jump in with your own solution before the other person has a chance to suggest anything?
  • • How might your outcomes improve if you consistently asked, "Do you have any ideas for how we could solve this that work for both of us?"
  • • What is one upcoming decision or problem where you can deliberately hold back your preferred fix and instead elicit and build on the other person's ideas?
5

Using collaborative problem solving with others is also a training ground for yourself, strengthening your own skills in perspective taking, flexibility, emotion regulation, and creative problem solving.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which of your own skills-patience, flexibility, listening, or emotional control-tend to break down first in conflict?
  • • How could you treat your next difficult interaction as practice for building one specific personal skill rather than just "getting through it"?
  • • What small habit (for example, pausing before reacting or summarizing the other person's view) could you adopt to steadily grow your own capacity during hard conversations?
6

True accountability is not about suffering consequences but about being responsible for solving the problem so it does not recur, which requires involving the person in understanding and fixing what went wrong.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In your family or team, how do you currently define "taking responsibility" when someone messes up?
  • • How could you shift a recent or ongoing issue from "who deserves what consequence" to "how do we prevent this from happening again together?"
  • • What is one concrete way you could invite a person who erred to help design the solution, so they are on the hook for fixing the problem rather than just enduring a penalty?

Episode Summary - Notes by River

Reframing the Battle of Wills
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