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Hidden Brain

Passion vs. Paycheck

with Jennifer Tostekaris

Published September 22, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

Host Shankar Vedantam speaks with organizational scholar Jennifer Tostekaris about the idea of work as a "calling" and how this concept has evolved from its religious roots to a modern secular ideal. They explore compelling examples like Paul Gauguin, Marie Curie, and Oprah Winfrey to illustrate how callings can inspire extraordinary dedication, creativity, and impact. The conversation also examines the psychological and economic downsides of callings, including distorted self-assessment, vulnerability to exploitation, burnout, and the collateral damage to families and other life domains, and concludes with a more tempered view of meaningful work that does not require everyone to have a grand vocation.

Topics Covered

Personal Development Career transitions Burnout Resilience Music career Art and creativity Mental health Work ethic Relationships Perspective shift

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • Experiencing work as a calling is strongly associated with higher job and life satisfaction, engagement, and persistence in the face of setbacks.
  • People who feel a strong calling often work harder and enjoy their work more, but this same passion can lead them to overestimate their abilities and ignore critical feedback.
  • Callings are especially common in fields like the arts, music, and helping professions, where pay is often low, leaving people vulnerable to economic sacrifice and exploitation.
  • A powerful sense of vocation can crowd out other aspects of life, harming health, relationships, and responsibilities to family, as illustrated by Paul Gauguin's abandonment of his family.
  • Some people who feel called but cannot pursue or sustain that calling experience frustration, regret, and depression because ordinary jobs feel like a letdown compared with their ideal.
  • Research on musicians and business students shows that strong callings can create career tunnel vision and make people discount the advice of mentors who warn them away from risky paths.
  • Viewing work like a romantic soulmate sets an unrealistically high bar that few jobs can meet, mirroring the way rising expectations in love have made satisfying relationships harder to achieve.
  • Meaningful lives do not require a singular, all-consuming calling; many people derive their deepest sense of purpose from domains outside work, and that is a valid and valuable path.

Podcast Notes

Introduction and cultural fascination with callings

Hidden Brain 10-year anniversary and show's sense of calling

Shankar notes the episode is released exactly 10 years after Hidden Brain launched[0:05]
He says that although much has changed, one thing has stayed the same: the team loves making the show every week and sees it as their calling[0:21]

Framing the episode: what is a calling?

Shankar sets up an episode about callings and how finding one can change our lives[0:33]

Steve Jobs' Stanford speech and the modern ideal of "find what you love"

Steve Jobs' 2005 Stanford commencement address

Shankar describes Jobs at the podium in Palo Alto in 2005, joking he never graduated from college[1:31]
Jobs' speech captivated not only the graduates but many others in subsequent years[1:41]

Central message of Jobs' speech

Jobs urges graduates not to waste time living someone else's life because time is limited[1:59]
He says he was kept going by loving what he did and insists, "You've got to find what you love" in work and in romantic relationships[2:02]
Jobs likens finding a vocation to finding a soulmate, saying you'll know when you find it and it gets better over time[2:16]
He advises that if you haven't found work you love yet, you should keep looking and not settle[2:53]

Historical roots of the language of callings

Shankar notes the idea of being driven by a calling goes back centuries and originally referred to religious callings to priesthood and prayer[2:57]
People were understood as being called by God to a life of service[3:11]
Today, many people in secular professions yearn to be similarly galvanized by their work[3:21]

Episode focus

Shankar announces that the episode will examine both the immense power and the downsides of pursuing a calling[3:30]

Listener introspection and introduction of guest

Prompting listeners to reflect on their own work

Shankar asks listeners if they've ever looked up from work and wondered if this is all there is and whether they are doing what they were meant to do[5:28]
He invites listeners to notice what they wish they were doing instead when those questions arise[5:55]

Introducing Jennifer Tostekaris

Shankar introduces Jennifer Tostekaris from Babson College, saying she studies how we find meaning in work and derive more satisfaction and purpose in our professional lives[6:01]
He welcomes her to Hidden Brain and she thanks him[6:08]

Paul Gauguin: a story of radical career change and artistic calling

Gauguin's early life and dissatisfaction with conventional work

Jennifer explains that before becoming a celebrated artist, Paul Gauguin worked as a reluctant stock trader and "workaday stiff" in 19th-century Paris[6:30]
He disliked the job's long office hours and need to dress up, while maintaining a separate interest in art, both making and collecting it[6:43]
Jennifer notes many people find themselves in similar positions, taking any job they can to support their families at a subsistence level[7:25]

Gauguin's decision to pursue art full time

Despite struggling to make ends meet, Gauguin repeatedly returned to art as his passion and refuge[7:40]
Jennifer frames his story as a thought experiment: what if someone made a radical break from drudgery to move closer to their passions?[8:00]
Gauguin eventually left everything, including France, and moved to Tahiti to pursue art full time[8:34]

Moral complexity of Gauguin's life in Tahiti

Shankar notes that Gauguin's life in Tahiti has drawn scrutiny: he lived with a 13-year-old girl and impregnated a 14-year-old[8:52]
He points out that while such behavior would be illegal and disturbing in many places today, the legal age of consent in France and its colonies at the time was 13[8:57]
When Gauguin died in 1903 he was relatively unknown, but Jennifer says his reputation changed dramatically after his death[9:10]

Gauguin's posthumous impact and whether the gamble "paid off"

Jennifer says that posthumously Gauguin became extremely successful and is now one of the most famous painters[9:19]
He is remembered for his art rather than his stockbroking or sales work, and his paintings hang in preeminent museums[9:43]
Jennifer argues it is hard not to say his gamble paid off given his fame, influence on peers like Vincent van Gogh, and impact on later artists such as Pablo Picasso[10:05]
• She cites art historians who trace a direct line from Gauguin's Tahitian figures and oceanic iconography-with stylized, somewhat abstract forms-to Picasso and Cubism
She notes personally that iconic Gauguin works, like a large painting at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston, would not exist without his radical career move[11:08]

Marie Curie and Oprah Winfrey as calling exemplars

Marie Curie's devotion to science and its costs

Shankar introduces Marie Curie as a scientist who was famously devoted to her work and had enormous downstream influence[11:32]
Jennifer describes Curie's impact on radiology in medicine and on how we think about radioactivity across many domains of modern life[11:51]
Curie was the first woman to win a Nobel Prize, the first person to win it twice, and the first to win in two different disciplines (physics and chemistry)[12:08]
Jennifer emphasizes Curie's "all or nothing" commitment to doing science, noting she was somewhat obsessed with her work and not motivated by fame or recognition[12:19]
• Curie gave away her Nobel Prize money to students who needed financial support, illustrating her lack of interest in personal enrichment
Shankar notes that many believe Curie died as a result of her work studying radioactivity[12:58]
Jennifer calls this the ultimate symbol of being willing to sacrifice everything for work, including one's life, whether directly through the work or via neglecting self-care[13:11]

Oprah Winfrey and the language of calling

Shankar introduces a clip from Oprah Winfrey, describing her background of poverty in Mississippi and sense of being destined for great things[13:43]
In the clip, Oprah says that sometimes a calling is right in your own neighborhood and begins as a whisper you honor and follow to become your best self[13:46]
Shankar notes that Oprah became a billionaire and has even been urged by some to run for president[14:04]

Common threads among Gauguin, Curie, and Winfrey

Jennifer hears a common theme: work can be a calling, more than a paycheck, and a deep source of personal fulfillment and contribution[14:31]
She highlights immersion in the work itself and a sense of doing great things for both self and world as central to these stories[14:35]
Shankar says the power stories seem like a slam dunk for Jobs' message that everyone should find and pursue their callings[15:44]
He notes human nature is complicated: traits that help in one domain can impede in another, foreshadowing a discussion of downsides[15:04]

History of the calling concept and empirical benefits

Steve Jobs' dropout story as a prelude

Shankar recounts Jobs' story of dropping out of college, sleeping on friends' floors, returning Coke bottles for food money, and walking to the Hare Krishna temple for weekly meals[17:38]
Jobs described this precarious period as something he loved, and said following curiosity and intuition later proved priceless[17:42]

Historical evolution from religious to secular callings

Jennifer explains that the idea of work as a calling reaches back to the Protestant Reformation, where the calling referred mainly to ministry and serving God[18:03]
The notion of secular callings started to gain traction with the rise of knowledge work in the 1980s and 1990s, when people could own projects and invest themselves in them[18:27]
She argues the time of Jobs' 2005 speech marks "peak calling," citing Google n-gram data showing terms like "find your calling" and "find your passion" rising sharply from the early 1980s to the early 2000s[18:56]
While the idea has deep religious roots, contemporary callings are experienced as highly personal and deeply connected to one's sense of self rather than a higher power[19:35]

Survey evidence on the benefits of experiencing a calling

Jennifer summarizes a 20-year quantitative survey project (with co-authors Shasa DeBrow, Hannah Weissman, and Danny Heller) on what it means to experience work as a calling[20:01]
They find that people with strong callings report greater work and life satisfaction, higher engagement, and behavioral indicators of better performance, such as lower absenteeism[20:07]

Callings, enjoyment, and effort

In a study with Shasa Debrau and Heather Kappas, Jennifer examined whether strong callings lead to greater effort[20:49]
They found empirically that people with stronger callings expend more effort on calling-relevant tasks[20:57]
The mechanism is enjoyment: stronger callings increase enjoyment of the work, which in turn leads to people working harder[21:16]
Jennifer connects this to the popular saying that if you love what you do, you'll never work a day in your life[21:24]

Callings as a reserve of resilience and protection against plateauing

Jennifer says a calling can function as a deep reserve of resilience and connection to the work, helping people persist through setbacks[21:42]
In a study with Marco DiRenzo and Ned Powley on U.S. military officers with about 10-12 years of service, they examined perceived career plateau-the feeling of no longer learning or growing[22:27]
Officers with stronger callings toward the military were less likely to feel plateaued, which in turn increased their commitment to staying in the organization[23:03]

Potential link between callings and creativity or breakthrough work

Jennifer suggests that stronger callings deepen connection to a domain, motivating people to learn more, spend more time, and invest more resources into their work[22:54]
She hypothesizes that this immersion-akin to what Steve Jobs or Oprah described-may help generate breakthroughs, though she notes more research is needed[23:41]

Jennifer's personal career journey and sense of calling

Life as a management consultant

Jennifer recounts starting her career as a management consultant after being an undergraduate business major[24:19]
She describes the job as a dream at first: high pay, smart colleagues, project-based work that didn't get boring, travel, and perks like hotel points and frequent flyer miles[24:36]
Despite these objective positives, she never felt consulting was her calling or even something she wanted to stay in long term[25:00]
She also noticed a pronounced gender gap: many male partners had families, whereas the few female partners were mostly single and childless[25:26]
• This pattern prompted her to question whether she wanted a life of constant travel four or five days a week and whether the work fit her values and desired future

Transition to academia and discovery of a calling

Jennifer left consulting and became an academic, and she now feels a calling toward being a teacher and researcher[25:59]
She says she feels fortunate to study questions that have long fascinated her, such as why people spend so much time at work and why work defines identity so strongly[26:13]
She notes that in U.S. culture, especially in the Northeast, the question "What do you do?" is understood as referring to one's job, reflecting the centrality of work to identity[26:48]
Talking to real people about how work and meaning resonate with them is, in her words, "the best" part of her job[26:40]
Shankar remarks that he can hear her enthusiasm and sense of calling in her voice and suggests that people who have callings often radiate that energy[26:58]
Jennifer agrees that colleagues in an organization likely reveal their feelings about work through intangible cues of engagement and perhaps obsession[27:37]

Audience participation invitation about callings

Request for listener stories and questions

Shankar asks whether listeners see themselves in the description of someone with a calling or feel envy of those who have found one[30:07]
He invites people with stories or questions about callings to record a voice memo in a quiet room and email it to the show with the subject line "calling"[30:28]

Meaningful work, happiness, and emerging downsides of callings

Freud's view: love and work as pillars of happiness

Shankar cites Sigmund Freud's claim that human happiness has two sources: love and work[30:43]
He summarizes Freud's view that close ties with friends, family, and lovers are essential, and that meaningful work showing we make a difference can bring enduring satisfaction[31:09]
At Babson, Jennifer has found that meaningful work indeed contributes to happiness[31:17]
Shankar notes that she and philosopher Christopher Wong-Michelson wrote a book titled "Is Your Work Worth It? How to Think About Meaningful Work"[32:10]

Introducing the possibility of downsides

Shankar says the cultural celebration of callings may obscure the fact that vocations can have drawbacks[32:30]
Jennifer agrees that this is startling given how entrenched messages like "Do what you love, the money will follow" and "Find your calling, love your life" have become[32:09]
She notes that popular book titles embody an assumption that once you find your calling, everything else becomes easy, which does not match reality[33:30]

Distorted judgment and tunnel vision among people with strong callings

Longitudinal research on musicians' callings and talent perceptions

Jennifer describes musicians as ideal for studying callings because music evokes passion but is also a risky career where many won't make it professionally[33:12]
Her co-author Shasa Debrow, a professor and professional bassoonist, has followed musically talented high schoolers for over 11 years[33:01]
They measured students' sense of calling toward music in youth and later tracked who pursued music professionally[33:35]
Unsurprisingly, stronger early callings predicted a higher likelihood of pursuing music careers, but this was driven not by actual ability but by perceived talent[33:47]
People with strong callings tended to overestimate their own ability, leading them to take riskier career paths than their objective talent might warrant[34:05]

Resistance to discouraging feedback from mentors

Jennifer and Debrow studied how musicians responded when private teachers discouraged them from pursuing music professionally[35:08]
The stronger the musician's sense of calling, the less likely they were to follow the teacher's advice-they thanked them but decided to pursue music anyway[34:58]
They replicated this pattern with business school students: those with strong callings to business were less likely to heed a trusted mentor who advised against entering business[35:27]
Jennifer notes that many archetypal calling stories celebrate overcoming doubters and obstacles, which can reinforce the idea that ignoring negative feedback is virtuous[36:46]
She suggests that while some self-confidence and even mildly inflated self-views can aid resilience, there is a tipping point where refusal to listen to caring advisors becomes harmful[36:30]

Economic sacrifices, exploitation risk, and burnout among those with callings

Low pay in calling-heavy professions

Jennifer notes that prototypical calling-oriented fields-nonprofits, helping work, international aid-tend to be poorly paid[37:12]
Society implicitly asks people in these areas to accept lower pay in exchange for meaning, compared with lucrative paths like banking or big law where ethical questions may be set aside[37:57]
Her research and others' shows that people with stronger callings are willing to make financial sacrifices to do the work they love[38:14]

From dedication to exploitation and health costs

Jennifer warns that because organizations prize highly committed workers, people with strong callings can be asked to continually go above and beyond[39:37]
Managers may rely on such employees to come in off-hours, handle urgent tasks, and compensate for others, which can cross into unfairness and exploitation[39:07]
Studies find that people with strong callings often sacrifice personal time without pay and report higher physical and psychological issues, including fatigue, stress, and burnout[39:46]
Ultimately, this overwork can become unsustainable, leading even highly committed employees to leave their jobs[41:26]

The case of pianist Colin Huggins and extreme sacrifice for art

Public performance as a chosen calling

Jennifer tells the story of Colin Huggins, a busker who plays a 900-pound Steinway baby grand piano in New York's Washington Square Park[41:41]
He used to work as a professional accompanist for the Joffrey Ballet but became hooked on public performance in the park[42:37]
He would wheel the piano from his East Village apartment to the park and invite people to lie under it on moving blankets to experience the sound[41:52]
This path reflected a strong passion for music and public performance, but was not a lucrative way to make a living even before COVID-19[43:47]

Financial and personal toll of following the calling

By 2023, reports indicated that Huggins was homeless and sleeping in the park on his piano because he could no longer afford East Village rent[44:40]
Jennifer portrays this as a poignant, tragic example of ultimate sacrifice for beloved work, with basic needs going unmet[43:44]

When callings fail, ripple effects, and the Gauguin family

Psychological toll when callings cannot be realized or sustained

Shankar points out that losing a calling-based career feels different and more emotionally painful than losing a regular job, because the work is deeply meaningful[44:10]
Jennifer notes that not everyone finds work in their calling, and not everyone can sustain such work, due to many possible constraints[46:31]
She cites research by Justin Berg and others showing that people who feel called but cannot pursue that calling often experience frustration, regret, and depression[46:16]
For these individuals, ordinary jobs do not just feel like jobs; they fall far short of an elevated internal standard for what work should be[46:43]

Gauguin's abandonment of family and harmful legacy

Shankar notes that the consequences of calling-driven decisions extend beyond the individual to affect families and others[47:03]
Jennifer says that by today's standards, Gauguin would be "cancelled" for leading an utterly selfish life at his family's expense[46:37]
When he went to Tahiti, he left his family behind in France and did not earn enough to support them financially from Polynesia[46:41]
She recounts that his favorite child died and he still did not return home, and that he pursued relationships with women he painted[47:19]
By most accounts, Gauguin became consumed by his obsession to paint, went mad, and died in Polynesia without reconnecting with his abandoned family[47:39]
Jennifer suggests that devotion to work can be used as an excuse not to fully engage in other life domains, including family and self-care[48:07]

Parallels between romantic love and work as a calling

Rising expectations in both marriage and work

Shankar notes that historically, work was viewed as merely paying the bills and marriage as a pragmatic institution for raising children[48:35]
Today, people expect romantic partners to be soulmates and jobs to be vocations, paralleling the modern idealization of both domains[48:09]
He points out that people with callings may ignore good advice just as people in love can be blind to reason, and that failure in either domain can be deeply painful[48:31]
Jennifer agrees that similar psychological processes are at work and notes that Steve Jobs himself explicitly compared searching for a job you love to seeking a romantic partner[49:56]
She argues that expecting a perfect, soulmate-like job is as unrealistic as expecting a conflict-free, always-blissful romantic relationship[50:16]

Interpersonal difficulties of strongly called workers

Jennifer notes research showing that people with strong callings can be highly committed and imaginative but also extremely critical of organizations, leaders, and coworkers who differ from them[51:25]
They may be the first to volunteer for extra hours yet also the first to complain when decisions conflict with their sense of calling[51:00]
This combination can strain work relationships and make them difficult colleagues, even as they deliver exceptional effort[51:33]

Eli Finkel's research on marriage as an analogy

Shankar recalls a previous Hidden Brain episode with Eli Finkel, who argued that rising expectations in marriage mean fewer people achieve the desired level of relationship satisfaction[52:06]
Those who can meet the high standard may have better marriages than people centuries ago, but many feel they are falling short[52:15]
Shankar draws a parallel: people who find and achieve their calling may be extraordinarily happy, but many who aspire to that high bar may end up disappointed[52:57]
Jennifer agrees this is a perfect parallel and says someone should empirically study expectations versus reality for callings[53:37]
She points out that many necessary jobs may never feel like anyone's calling, raising concerns about people who lack the freedom or autonomy to choose calling-rich work[52:40]

Concluding reflections: are callings good, and what else can give life meaning?

Normative stance on callings and meaningful work

Shankar asks where Jennifer ultimately comes down on whether callings are good, given both their upsides and costs[53:37]
She says she does not want anyone to be stuck in meaningless, drudging work that they believe harms rather than improves the world[54:17]
Her hope is that society can provide jobs that offer a path to a sense of meaning, respect, and human dignity[54:26]
However, she emphasizes that feeling a strong calling is not the only or best path to a good or meaningful life[54:26]

Other sources of meaning beyond work

Jennifer notes that many people find meaning primarily outside of work, and that failing to have a calling is not a personal or moral failing[53:57]
She stresses that there are many ways to feel one is making a difference or contributing, and that these need not be tied chiefly to one's job[55:23]

Closing acknowledgments and invitation for follow-up

Shankar again invites listeners to send voice memos with questions and stories about callings for possible use on the show[55:23]
He acknowledges early contributors to Hidden Brain's launch and describes various production roles on the current team[56:05]
Shankar previews an upcoming series on love, focusing on what happens after initial infatuation and the work of day-to-day partnership[57:15]
He signs off by saying, "I'm Shankar Vedantam. See you soon."[57:53]

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Experiencing your work as a calling can boost satisfaction, effort, and resilience, but it works best when you also establish clear boundaries to protect your health and life outside of work.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in my current work do I feel a genuine sense of purpose, and where do I notice that purpose spilling over into unhealthy overwork?
  • • How could I define concrete limits on time, availability, or responsibilities so that my dedication to work doesn't crowd out rest, relationships, or self-care?
  • • What is one small boundary I could put in place this week that would keep my work energizing rather than depleting?
2

Feeling passionately called to a path can distort your self-assessment, so it is crucial to actively seek and take seriously honest feedback from people who know your abilities and care about your well-being.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Whose feedback about my strengths and limits do I tend to discount because it conflicts with the story I want to believe about my calling?
  • • How might my decisions about education, career, or creative projects change if I weighted trusted mentors' advice as heavily as my own enthusiasm?
  • • What specific step could I take this month to test my abilities in a more objective way (for example, auditions, competitions, peer review, or performance metrics)?
3

Pursuing a calling often involves financial and personal tradeoffs, so you need to evaluate those tradeoffs deliberately, including how they will affect dependents, long-term stability, and your basic needs.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What concrete sacrifices (income, housing, savings, family time) am I currently willing to make for my chosen work, and which sacrifices would cross a line for me?
  • • How are the people who rely on me-including family members or partners-likely to be impacted if I double down on this path versus adjust it?
  • • What is one practical safeguard (such as a savings target, backup plan, or time-bound experiment) I can put in place before making a major leap driven by passion?
4

Treating work like a romantic soulmate sets the bar so high that many jobs will inevitably disappoint, so aiming for "good enough and meaningful" may be wiser than insisting on a perfect vocation.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In what ways have I been expecting my job to meet needs (identity, belonging, constant excitement) that might more realistically be shared across different parts of my life?
  • • How could redefining my goal from finding a perfect calling to crafting a reasonably meaningful, sustainable role change the choices in front of me?
  • • What aspects of my current or potential jobs already align with my values, and how might I build on those rather than holding out for an idealized role that may not exist?
5

A meaningful life does not require a singular all-consuming calling; cultivating diverse sources of meaning-in relationships, community, and non-work pursuits-can be just as fulfilling.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Outside of my job, what activities, relationships, or responsibilities give me a sense that my life matters?
  • • How might I rebalance my time and attention so that work is one important piece of my identity rather than its entire foundation?
  • • What is one non-work arena (family, friendship, volunteering, creative hobbies) where I could invest more intentionally over the next three months to deepen my sense of purpose?

Episode Summary - Notes by Spencer

Passion vs. Paycheck
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