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TED Talks Daily

TED Talks Daily Book Club: Human Nature: Nine Ways to Feel About Our Changing Planet | Kate Marvel

with Kate Marvel

Published November 16, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

Host Elise Hu interviews climate scientist Kate Marvel about her book "Human Nature, Nine Ways to Feel About Our Changing Planet," which explores climate change through nine emotions rather than just data or policy. Marvel discusses why scientists should acknowledge their feelings, how climate communication needs storytelling as well as charts, and how humans still have agency to shape a wide range of possible futures. They cover topics including grief for changing places, the limits of individual action, practical climate solutions, technological interventions, and how hope can be understood as something we do rather than something we simply have.

Topics Covered

Climate change activism Science communication Sustainability Pollution Systems thinking Personal narrative Parenting and child development Climate change projections Renewable energy and decarbonization Climate anxiety and emotional responses

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • Kate Marvel's book frames climate change as a biography of the planet told through nine emotions, arguing there is no single correct way to feel about it.
  • She contends that scientists pretending to be emotionless actually undermines credibility, because it hides the human stakes of climate change.
  • The largest uncertainty in future climate projections comes from human choices and policies, not from physics, making the future genuinely contingent on our actions.
  • Past successes like repairing the ozone hole and reducing acid rain show that coordinated policy, such as the Clean Air Act, can solve large-scale environmental problems.
  • Marvel distinguishes between merely avoiding extinction and building a thriving, healthier society, emphasizing the many co-benefits of decarbonization like cleaner air.
  • COVID-era emission drops were modest despite major lifestyle changes, illustrating that systemic transformation matters more than purely individual behavior change.
  • She stresses that boring, incremental solutions-heat pumps, induction stoves, walkable cities, and cleaner industry-are central to effective climate action.
  • Geological history shows the Earth has undergone large climate shifts before, but what is unprecedented now is the speed of change within a human lifetime.
  • Marvel sees hope as an active practice rather than a feeling, and believes everyone's skills-from storytelling to procurement-can contribute to climate solutions.
  • Maintaining a sense of wonder, reading long physical books, and prioritizing in-person community help keep her grounded and motivated to continue this work.

Podcast Notes

Introduction and context for the conversation

Host introduces book club format and guest

TED Talks Daily book club aims to spotlight new books from TED speakers that inspire and spark curiosity throughout the year[2:54]
Host Elise Hu introduces Kate Marvel as a climate scientist and former cosmologist who uses weather models to predict climate outcomes[3:00]
Marvel is also described as a human being with deep feelings about the changing planet, which sets up the emotional framing of the discussion[3:12]

Overview of the book "Human Nature, Nine Ways to Feel About Our Changing Planet"

Hu describes the book as a unique take on climate change because it does not only present science, history, or prescriptions for fixing things[3:20]
• Instead, the book uses nine different emotions as lenses for exploring the current climate moment
Hu notes they will discuss Marvel's sense of wonder and awe, why she chose to write the book, how she is learning to embrace grief, and her preference for knowing both good and bad about the future[3:40]

Book concept and emotions-based framing

Marvel's motivation and goals for the book

Marvel says you can think of the book as a biography of the planet told in nine different emotions[4:21]
The genesis of the book was that she was having strong feelings about climate change and felt guilty about them because scientists are expected to be neutral and objective[5:22]
• She highlights a cultural expectation that scientists should pretend they have no feelings or preferences
Marvel notes she studies Earth and that everything and everyone she cares about is here, so of course she has feelings about it[4:51]
She realized that when scientists pretend not to feel anything, they do not become more credible; instead, they become liars[4:56]
• Her desire not to be a liar led her to seek a new way to talk about climate change that included both science and feelings

Parallels between science and journalism

Hu notes the parallel with journalism, where journalists are also expected to be objective and implacid, even though journalism is a method like science[5:27]
Marvel agrees science and journalism share goals: figuring out what is true and telling people about it[5:40]
• She emphasizes that both scientists and journalists are human and cannot leave their humanity at the door
If they pretend not to be human, they are not telling the full truth or full picture[5:55]

Nine emotions used in the book

Hu lists the nine feelings: wonder, anger, guilt, fear, grief, surprise, pride, hope, and love[6:05]
Marvel was frustrated that much climate communication seemed to demand a single feeling, often abject terror, rage, guilt, or overwhelming grief[6:31]
• She acknowledges these emotions are valid and rooted in reality but rejects the idea there is only one right way to feel
Given climate change affects literally everything we know, she argues it is impossible to have only one feeling about it[6:50]
Her goal was to write about the incredible range of feelings we have as we look at a changing planet[7:04]

Climate communication, stories, and audience

Learned helplessness and limits of fear-based messaging

Hu notes overly pessimistic climate coverage can lead to learned helplessness or tuning out, as people feel powerless in the face of fossil fuel stories and planetary destruction[7:18]
Asked about the role of communications in fighting climate change, Marvel says she knows scientists' typical approach of adding "one more chart or equation" has reached its limit[8:00]
• Scientists often assume that more data will convince people and motivate action, but that is not what actually moves people
Marvel says humans are "story machines" and resonate with emotional stories rather than just tables and equations[8:37]

Marvel's scope and intended audience for the book

Marvel clarifies the book is not about how to manage climate anxiety or how to think about or handle one's own feelings[8:58]
• She describes it instead as a book about the enormity of climate change, the amazingness of the planet, and the variety of things we can feel about it
She is not trying to persuade climate deniers and notes that relatively few people now deny climate change compared to the whole population[9:23]
Marvel wants scientists to read the book and think she got the facts right, but she also wants non-scientists, nature-writing readers, and novel-preferring readers to find value in it[9:48]
She insists climate change is informed by science but is not just a scientific issue; it matters because it affects all of us[9:59]
• She dislikes headlines that say "scientists are worried" about things like ice sheet melting or temperature rise, asking rhetorically what planet non-scientists live on
Marvel hopes non-science and non-climate people will get a picture of the science, relevant history, and the stories we can tell about climate change[10:37]

Use of mythology and Cassandra

The book weaves together history, science, and Greek mythology; early on, Marvel introduces Cassandra, the Trojan priestess with the gift and curse of prophecy[10:56]
She sees striking parallels between Cassandra and modern climate science, where being right but disbelieved is tragic[11:25]
Marvel wants to invert the Cassandra myth by highlighting how amazing it is to be among the few who know the truth about the world[11:32]
• She says there is something wonderful and beautiful about understanding anything about the planet at all, and that learning something new every day is the job of a scientist

Climate projections, human agency, and examples of policy success

Projections vs predictions and humans as world-builders

Marvel notes scientists do not make predictions about the future but projections, which are conditional "if-then" statements[12:24]
Climate models are made of physics and code but run on stories about human behavior, especially emissions of greenhouse gases and aerosols[12:47]
• She describes climate models as literal world-building machines that show the world resulting from a given emissions story
Marvel says there is no uncertainty about what is causing climate change or that it is bad overall, but there is uncertainty about exact temperature increases, cloud behavior, and plant responses[13:23]
The biggest source of uncertainty is what humans will do-the narrative about our actions-making the future very much in our hands[13:42]

Ozone hole, acid rain, and the Clean Air Act as hopeful precedents

Hu cites the example of the ozone hole: a major concern in the 1980s that is now on the road to recovery because of actions taken about 30 years ago[14:23]
Marvel agrees the ozone hole is not a complete story but says the short answer is that "we fixed it"[14:29]
She recalls also hearing about acid rain as a child and notes "we fixed that too" via the U.S. Clean Air Act[14:41]
Marvel praises the Clean Air Act, passed in 1970 under Richard Nixon and updated in the 1990s, for cleaning the air and saving millions of lives[14:54]
• She clarifies the Act is not perfect and not an exact model for climate solutions, but it is important evidence that humans can do good things after doing bad ones

Surviving vs thriving and limits of reversing climate change

Gap between survival and flourishing futures

Hu notes Marvel writes that climate change will not be the end of humanity, but there is a wide gap between merely surviving and thriving[18:03]
Marvel says discourse often contrasts extinction vs. non-extinction, but she wants something better than "not extinct" and has higher standards than that[18:52]
She argues climate action should be seen not only as preventing the worst but as delivering immediate benefits like cleaner air, economic gains, and national security improvements[19:42]
She stresses that the present itself is not necessarily desirable, and that we are choosing among a wide variety of different futures, not just "apocalypse" vs "really sucks"[19:56]

Irreversible elements and realistic but empowering framing

Hu points out that even if all greenhouse gas emissions stopped tomorrow, the world would continue to feel the effects of past emissions, meaning some things are too late to save[20:24]
Marvel distinguishes between the impossibility of "no climate change" and the preventability of the worst outcomes[20:20]
• She notes the world is already about 1.4°C warmer than before the Industrial Revolution and likely to pass the 1.5°C Paris target, with no going back from that
If emissions stopped tomorrow, temperatures would stabilize, but the Earth would continue adjusting; oceans take a long time to heat, and some sea level rise is already locked in[21:48]
Marvel does not see this as demotivating but rather as reality, emphasizing we can still prevent worst-case scenarios and that stopping temperature rise is empowering[22:02]
She endorses UN messaging that every ton of CO2 and every tenth of a degree matters, explaining climate change is a slope we slide down, not a binary on/off state[22:16]

Systems vs individual action, COVID lessons, and practical solutions

COVID shutdowns and limits of lifestyle-only changes

Marvel calls COVID a fascinating example: shutdowns led to a slight increase in Earth's temperature due to reduced aerosols that normally block sunlight[22:48]
• Humans emit both greenhouse gases, which warm, and aerosols/pollution, which block sunlight and seed clouds; during shutdowns, aerosol emissions fell, reducing that cooling effect
Global greenhouse gas emissions did decrease during COVID, but only by about 5-7 percent[23:46]
Marvel says this shows the limits of framing climate action solely as individual behavior change like flying or driving less[23:51]
She notes that trying to drive a personal carbon footprint to zero is impossible because individuals are embedded in society, and that feeling of impossibility is demotivating[24:46]
Marvel states the concept of the personal carbon footprint was invented by BP to shift responsibility from fossil fuel companies onto individuals[24:58]

Community, boring solutions, and the scale of change needed

Marvel emphasizes we are all part of communities-faith, school, workplace-and says if your job is on planet Earth, you have a climate job[25:16]
She is comforted that many effective climate solutions are "really boring" rather than dramatic[25:36]
• Examples she lists include induction stoves, heat pumps, electrifying industry, making cities more walkable, expanding public transit, electric vehicles, wiser land use, and eating fewer cows and more plants
She stresses these measures are small, prosaic, and not terrifying, yet precisely what needs to be done, which she finds motivating[26:20]

Need for action at scale and obstacles

Hu asks what should be happening at scale to maximize chances for a better future; Marvel answers that much more needs to happen and says the anger chapter was easiest to write[26:32]
She acknowledges the world is taking enormous steps toward decarbonizing, citing the dramatic cost decline of solar power over the last decade[26:53]
• Solar used to be viewed as niche and expensive, used mainly by "hippies," but is now the cheapest form of electricity generation in history, with prices falling by 90 percent over a decade
She notes prices for wind energy and battery storage are also falling rapidly, showing that while climate problems worsen, solutions are improving[27:29]
Marvel stresses that existing solutions are not being implemented anywhere near the scale needed[27:45]
She points to organized opposition, including people spreading lies about climate change or renewable energy's viability[27:57]
Marvel believes we already have almost all the tools needed to address climate change; the key is to keep pushing and not give up or claim no one cares[28:28]

Saving the planet vs saving ourselves and framing grief

Distinguishing planetary survival from human well-being

Hu notes debates about whether humans are "destroying the planet" and suggests maybe humans are really just destroying humans[28:38]
Marvel is certain a rock will remain in Earth's orbit around the sun regardless of climate change, but says she does not want humans to destroy humans or everything else on the planet[29:03]
She argues that when we talk about saving the planet, we should admit we mean saving ourselves and the living things we care about[29:15]

Grief chapter: Earth's past states and personal attachment to place

Marvel explains each chapter braids a scientific throughline, an emotional throughline, and a story throughline (from mythology, history, or her life)[29:37]
The grief chapter meditates on Earth's past climate states over its roughly four-billion-year history and how those eras shaped beloved places[29:59]
She says the place she loves most is Northern California and describes the strange grief of watching it change from afar while living in New York[30:12]
• She compares the feeling to reading on Facebook that a former boyfriend has cancer: something once central to your life, now in peril and distant
Marvel uses Earth's past eras, like the Pliocene about three million years ago, to illustrate potential futures: CO2 then was similar to now, but sea level was 20-50 feet higher[31:09]
• She calls that past world an "uncanny valley" version of ours: continents in similar places but coastlines blurred by higher seas
She also describes past ice ages, including how they shaped Yosemite Valley, and notes those were driven by natural orbital wobbles of Earth[31:47]
Marvel contrasts that slow geologic change with today, where ice-age-scale changes in magnitude are happening over human lifetimes, which she finds disorienting and deeply sad[32:11]

Human-nature relationship, health, parenting, hope, and love

Living with a blood clot and renegotiating nature

Hu recalls Marvel writing about living with a blood clot discovered in 2022 that could have killed her, and asks how it changed her worldview[34:43]
Marvel says she has long pondered whether humans are part of or separate from nature, and what her place in the world is[35:09]
After being saved by modern medicine, she describes herself as an "unnatural being" because nature did not "want" her to still be alive[35:07]
Despite that, nature still brings her solace and has importance beyond how it makes her feel[35:32]
She concludes humans will constantly renegotiate our relationship with nature, which is what happens in any important relationship[35:51]

Parenting, collective responsibility, and hope as a verb

Hu connects this to parenting, describing it as continual negotiation of self and a kind of ego death with children at different stages[36:00]
She asks how Marvel thinks about having children amid clear climate impacts and limited large-scale action[36:42]
Marvel says there are many reasons both to have and not have children, but regardless, children exist and everyone has responsibility toward them[36:56]
With her own kids (ages five and nine), she frames hope not as something you have but as something you do[37:30]
• She compares the question "Do you have hope for the future?" to "Do you have hope you can clean your bathroom?"-you just clean it because you know what to do
She talks with her nine-year-old about climate solutions and emphasizes that he is inheriting problems but will also grow up to be part of the solution[37:22]
Marvel notes that throughout human history, growing up has involved inheriting problems and trying to make the world better[37:58]

Balancing complex emotions and maintaining motivation

Living with multiple feelings at once

Hu asks how Marvel balances grief with wonder, hope, love, and other feelings described in the book[38:28]
Marvel openly admits she manages this "very badly" and describes herself as a complete mess emotionally[38:41]
She reiterates the book is not advice on managing feelings; emotions are a narrative and framing device for exploring the science and stories[38:54]
Marvel intentionally allows herself to feel all the emotions and stresses that feeling one does not preclude feeling others[39:10]
• She says it is permissible to feel wonder and awe at the planet's incredibleness while also feeling sadness and guilt
She believes it is important to convey that multiple, even conflicting, feelings can coexist and that climate change is "the most interesting thing" happening on the planet right now[39:42]

Technological solutions, geoengineering, and their limits

Innovation, decarbonization tech, and giant techno-fixes

Hu notes there is hope in modern technologies like AI, carbon capture, and renewables for slowing global warming and asks Marvel's view[40:02]
Marvel says she has many feelings about innovation: she is encouraged by cheaper, better low-carbon technologies and electrification[40:22]
She devotes the book's Pride chapter to two enormous techno-solutions: solar radiation management (literally blocking the sun) and carbon dioxide removal[40:41]
• Solar radiation management is presented as blocking some incoming sunlight to cool the planet
• Carbon dioxide removal involves "hacking the planet" to take CO2 out of the atmosphere and then dealing with it through various methods
Marvel points out that plants already do CO2 removal via photosynthesis, which she still regards as "magic" because they make food out of thin air[41:24]
She stresses we cannot simply plant our way out of climate change: there is not enough land or trees to absorb all emissions without major reductions[41:37]
She notes humanity currently emits about 40 billion tons of CO2 per year, making removal at that scale an enormous challenge[42:00]
Marvel is skeptical of relying solely on approaches like planting trees, stimulating ocean phytoplankton, or building artificial trees to solve the problem[42:18]
She sees carbon dioxide removal technologies as potentially part of the solution but insists they will not work unless emissions reductions are also aggressively pursued[40:58]
She likens CO2 removal to having your stomach pumped: a useful option, but you should also stop drinking poison in the first place[42:35]

Climate careers, broad skill needs, and personal practices that sustain hope

Paths into climate advocacy and research

Hu asks what advice Marvel has for someone wanting to turn climate advocacy or research into a career[42:59]
Marvel says everything is in flux, but the scariest thing about climate change-emissions from nearly everything modern humans do-is also encouraging for action[43:27]
Because emissions come from nearly all activities, addressing them requires nearly every skill set humans have[43:36]
She encourages people to match what they are good at or passionate about with climate action roles[43:50]
• Examples: storytellers can tell climate stories; journalists can report in ways that resonate; procurement professionals can embed climate criteria into purchasing
Marvel underscores you do not need to be a scientist or engineer-though she recommends those fields too-to find meaningful ways to contribute[44:06]

Practices that keep Marvel going and how she "does" hope

Hu asks what keeps Marvel going and what she leans on to "do" hope[44:33]
Marvel says she strives to learn new things about the world every day, finding nourishment in wonder, awe, and gratitude for living on this planet[44:47]
She has significantly reduced her social media use and reads more long physical paper books, which she finds comforting[45:09]
Marvel says it feels almost subversive or rebellious to pay sustained attention to something that is not making someone money, such as reading "War and Peace"[45:17]
She finds in-person connection very helpful because it reminds her that climate change matters because of people and communities[45:47]
Marvel concludes that what matters is communities, people, and "us," and that this reinforces her belief that we have to win the fight against climate change[45:47]

Closing exchange and reflection on physical media

Host's appreciation and epilogue

Hu thanks Marvel for her wisdom, analogies, and scientific analysis, and Marvel says she has had a lot of fun[46:19]
Hu notes this was a TED Talks Daily Book Club conversation and gives brief production credits and team acknowledgments[46:51]

Post-credits banter about physical media and technology

Hu shares that a friend went to a book sale in Ithaca and bought many DVDs, feeling delighted to own physical media instead of paying monthly fees to stream content[47:21]
Marvel predicts a huge market for "not smart" technology and says she does not want her refrigerator connected to the internet[47:41]
Hu explains they began talking about this because she owns a DVD of the movie "Sharknado" and her friend said it might not be streamable someday[47:53]
Marvel jokes she is confident "Sharknado" will endure and survive her in some format, while Hu notes she lives every day with the ability to watch it[48:11]

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Acknowledging and expressing genuine emotions when communicating complex issues like climate change can deepen trust and make the message more resonant than pretending to be neutral and detached.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your work or relationships do you currently hide your true feelings in the name of appearing objective, and what might change if you were more transparent?
  • • How could sharing a personal story or emotion alongside facts make your next important message more relatable to your audience?
  • • What is one specific conversation this week where you can practice being both honest about your feelings and clear about the facts?
2

The largest uncertainty in our collective future often comes from human choices, not from nature or technology, which means our decisions, policies, and stories still meaningfully shape what happens next.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In what area of your life are you treating the future as fixed rather than something you can still influence through your actions?
  • • How might your decisions change if you regularly asked, "What story am I feeding into the world-building machine?" before choosing a course of action?
  • • What is one policy, habit, or norm in your workplace or community that you could help shift to move the collective story in a better direction?
3

Focusing solely on individual behavior change can be demotivating when problems are systemic; working through communities, institutions, and infrastructure often creates more leverage and sustained impact.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which climate- or social-related worries are you currently trying to address only through your personal consumption choices?
  • • How could you engage your workplace, school, faith group, or local government to tackle the same issue at a larger, systems level?
  • • What is one concrete step you could take this month to embed better environmental or social practices into a shared system you're part of (like procurement, policies, or norms)?
4

Hope is more effective when treated as a verb-an ongoing practice of acting toward better outcomes-rather than a passive feeling you either possess or lack.

Reflection Questions:

  • • When you think about the future, do you primarily evaluate how hopeful you feel, or what hopeful actions you are taking?
  • • How might your daily routine change if you defined "doing hope" as one small, constructive act for the future each day?
  • • What is one tangible hopeful action you can commit to this week, even if your emotions are mixed or pessimistic?
5

It is possible-and often necessary-to hold multiple conflicting emotions at once (wonder, grief, anger, love) without waiting to "resolve" them before taking meaningful action.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which difficult issue in your life currently feels paralyzed because you are waiting to feel only one clear emotion about it?
  • • How could you give yourself permission to feel both gratitude and sadness, or both anger and love, while still moving forward on that issue?
  • • What practical step could you take tomorrow that honors at least two of your emotions about a problem instead of trying to erase one of them?
6

Boring, incremental solutions-like cleaner technologies, efficiency upgrades, and better urban design-often drive real progress more reliably than grand, dramatic fixes.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where are you overlooking unglamorous improvements in favor of chasing big, impressive-sounding solutions?
  • • How might a series of small, repeatable improvements in your home, team, or organization compound over the next year?
  • • What is one "boring" change you could implement this month that would quietly reduce waste, emissions, or friction in your daily environment?
7

Drawing nourishment from wonder, long-form attention, and real-world community can sustain motivation and resilience when working on daunting long-term challenges.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What activities reliably reconnect you with a sense of awe or deep curiosity, and how often are they in your schedule right now?
  • • How could reducing one form of shallow digital engagement open space for a more immersive, non-monetized experience that restores you?
  • • Who are three people or groups you could spend more in-person time with to remind yourself why your work and concerns matter?

Episode Summary - Notes by Remy

TED Talks Daily Book Club: Human Nature: Nine Ways to Feel About Our Changing Planet | Kate Marvel
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