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TED Talks Daily

How to measure the planet's heartbeat | Yadvinder Malhi

with Yadvinder Mali

Published October 29, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

Ecosystem ecologist Yadvinder Mali explains how he and colleagues measure and map the flows of energy, carbon, and nutrients that sustain ecosystems, from forests and soils to coral reefs. He introduces the idea of "vibrancy"-the complexity and spread of energy through many species-as a key determinant of ecosystem health and resilience. Using examples from English woodlands, savannas, and tropical atolls, he argues that valuing nature only for carbon undermines this vibrancy, and that working with the wild energies of the biosphere gives both ecosystems and human communities their best chance to adapt to climate change.

Topics Covered

Ecosystem ecology Ecological data Climate change projections Environmental restoration Sustainability Marine biology Ocean ecosystems Wildlife conservation Climate change and agriculture

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Quick Takeaways

  • Ecosystems can be understood as intricate webs of energy, carbon, and nutrient flows that move from plants through animals, fungi, and microbes.
  • The health and resilience of an ecosystem depend not just on how much energy flows through it, but on how many different species that energy passes through-its "vibrancy."
  • Conservation efforts that focus only on charismatic species or on nature's services to humans risk overlooking the underlying webs of life that hold ecosystems together.
  • Tree plantations or carbon-focused monocultures can dramatically reduce ecological vibrancy, even if they store carbon.
  • Savannas are rich and biodiverse precisely because of their open, treeless spaces, and intensive tree planting there for carbon capture can damage that vibrancy.
  • Research on tropical atolls shows that intact, vibrant island-reef systems can grow fast enough to keep pace with some sea-level rise scenarios, while degraded islands struggle.
  • Seabirds, their nutrient-rich guano, coral reefs, parrotfish, and native vegetation together form a loop of energy, nutrients, and sediment that literally builds and maintains atoll islands.
  • Working with the wild energies and vibrancy of ecosystems-from wildlands to farms and cities-offers the best chance for both nature and human communities to adapt to climate change.

Podcast Notes

Podcast introduction and framing by the host

Elise Hu introduces TED Talks Daily and the day's idea

Host sets up the butterfly effect as a metaphor[2:06]
• She recalls the question of whether the flap of a butterfly's wings can cause a storm elsewhere in the world
Link from butterfly effect to ecosystem science[2:06]
• Elise Hu says that for ecosystem scientist Yadvinder Mali, the butterfly effect underpins life on Earth
Preview of the talk's focus on flows of energy in nature[2:24]
• She explains that Mali and fellow scientists map and calculate the flow of energy that runs the natural world
• She notes that he reminds us the world is not a series of disconnected parts but one whole living biosphere

Reimagining how we see forests and ecosystems

Initial image of a forest and human-centered uses

Prompt to consider our first thoughts when seeing a forest[2:50]
• Mali begins by asking what people think of when they see a forest
Common utilitarian perspectives on forests[2:58]
• He notes people may think of a forest as a source of timber
• He adds that forests may be seen as sources of fuel wood
• He mentions forests as stores of carbon with which we can tackle climate change
Acknowledgment of the usefulness of these views[3:08]
• Mali says such perspectives are useful and sometimes necessary ways of thinking about a forest or any ecosystem

A more mysterious and wondrous view of forests

Invitation to feel awe and mystery[3:11]
• He suggests that some people may feel something more mysterious and wondrous when looking at a forest
Forests as ancient, multi-species worlds[3:18]
• Mali describes an inkling of a world far more ancient than our young species
• He characterizes this world as full of beings that communicate in languages different from our own
• He says it is a world full of sound, chemistry, and light that we barely understand
• He emphasizes that such a world needs to be approached with humility

Plants as transformers of light and air into life

The everyday miracle of photosynthesis[3:37]
• Mali states that plants perform the everyday miracle of turning light and air into life
Energy cascading through the web of life[4:01]
• He says the captured sunshine then cascades from plant to animal to fungus to bacterium
• He explains that this cascading energy carries currents of carbon, nitrogen, and other essential nutrients
• Those flows together build the web of life that constitutes an ecosystem

Extending from ecosystems to the planetary biosphere

The planet as an interconnected web of flows

Planet as more than a sum of ecosystems[4:09]
• Mali states that the planet is the sum of the world's ecosystems, but is so much more
Description of the biosphere's flows[4:17]
• He describes the planet as an interconnected and shimmering web of flows of carbon, energy, and nutrients
• These flows build up the ancient matrix that is our home
• He notes that humans emerged from this matrix, are nurtured by it, and depend utterly on it

How ecosystem ecologists measure flows of energy and nutrients

Mali's role and global collaboration

Self-identification as an ecosystem ecologist[4:31]
• He says he is an ecosystem ecologist who studies this world of flows and interactions
Team-based research across the world[4:38]
• Mali explains that he works with a team of ecologists around the world
• Together they measure and map flows of energy, carbon, and nutrients that build up ecosystems

Tracking energy from sunlight through living systems

Following the path of captured sunlight[5:46]
• They start with the capture of sunshine by plants and follow those energy flows into the biomass of trees
• They then track energy down into roots, fungi, and into the soil
Including soil creatures in energy maps[5:01]
• Mali says they look beyond plants and fungi to soil creatures like worms and invertebrates
• By measuring the abundance of each creature, they can map and calculate the flows of energy
• He notes they find every life form to be a miracle of evolution

Technologies and methods used in ecosystem measurement

Use of advanced sensing and AI tools[5:22]
• Mali mentions using technologies such as acoustic sensors and camera traps
• He notes these tools are coupled with artificial intelligence tools
Traditional field methods and human expertise[5:31]
• He describes traditional approaches like counting birds in a rainforest at dawn
• These methods require training, expertise, dedication, and passion
Outcome of combining diverse methods[5:42]
• With such work, they can build up a map of the flows that make up an ecosystem

Case study: English woodland and the distribution of energy flows

Energy allocation in an English woodland outside Oxford

Quantifying how captured sunlight is used[5:46]
• Mali gives an example of an English woodland just outside of Oxford
• He says they calculate that 60 percent of the captured sunshine pours down into the trunks of trees
Flows from trees into soil[5:57]
• A smaller fraction of captured energy moves from trees through roots into the soil
• Another pathway into the soil is through falling leaves in autumn and falling fruits
Consumption by animals and building the web of life[6:09]
• Of all the plant material, a fraction is consumed by plant-eating animals
• A smaller fraction of that plant-eater biomass is consumed by animal-eating animals
• He notes this process builds and maintains the web of life

Defining ecosystem vibrancy and scaling up to the biosphere

Insights gained from measuring flows across ecosystems

Resilience depends on amount and complexity of energy flow[6:26]
• Mali says work in various ecosystems shows that resilience and health are determined by total flow of energy
• He adds that resilience also depends on how complex that energy flow is and how many species it passes through
Introduction of the concept of vibrancy[6:35]
• Mali calls this complex flow of energy, or spread of energy, the vibrancy of an ecosystem

Moving from individual ecosystems to the whole biosphere

Current work aims to scale up to the living planet[6:45]
• He says their current work tries to go from individual ecosystems to the scale of the whole living planet, the biosphere
Purpose of the talk: science and argument[6:49]
• Mali notes he could share interesting science and intends to tell some of those scientific stories
• He also says he is there to argue that the vibrancy of the living world is underappreciated in how we work with nature to tackle environmental challenges

Conservation focus versus underlying webs of life

Limitations of species-focused and service-focused conservation

Overemphasis on charismatic species[7:10]
• Mali says conservation may focus excessively on particular charismatic species, giving the example of elephants
Overemphasis on ecosystem services[7:16]
• He observes that conservation can also focus on what nature can do for humans, described as ecosystem services
Neglect of the webs of energy and life[7:22]
• Mali argues we do not pay enough attention to the webs of energy and life that hold everything together

Seeing ecosystems through "vibrancy eyes"

Surprising insights from a vibrancy perspective[7:29]
• He says that when we look at the world through vibrancy eyes, some surprises can emerge

People and vibrancy: when human presence supports ecological energy

Vibrant ecosystems can include humans

Traditional cultures in vibrant landscapes[7:39]
• Mali states that vibrant ecosystems do not have to be empty of people
• He notes many traditional cultures, indigenous peoples, and smallholder farmers live in places fizzing with ecological energy
Agricultural systems can also be vibrant[8:05]
• He says many agricultural systems, including regenerative systems, can buzz with ecological energy
Challenging the idea that nature's highest state is people-free[7:55]
• Mali asserts that the absence of people is not the highest state of nature
• He acknowledges that people-free areas are needed in some places
• He emphasizes that in many places people can and do build vibrant nature, and that we need to work with those energies

What is not vibrancy: monoculture plantations and carbon-only thinking

Tree monocultures as non-vibrant ecosystems

Endless rows of trees reduce richness[8:09]
• Mali describes endless rows of trees planted for timber or carbon capture as examples of what is not a vibrant ecosystem
• He says the richness of life is reduced to a single function in such systems
• He explains that vibrant energy flow is channeled and canalized into a single species
• He concludes that this is not a forest

Risks of focusing only on carbon value

Carbon has a role but can dominate the worldview[9:44]
• Mali warns that in working with nature to tackle climate change, we risk focusing too much on the carbon value of nature
• He acknowledges that carbon can help mitigate climate change and raise finance to protect or restore natural ecosystems
Danger of turning nature into a controllable carbon machine[8:54]
• He cautions that if carbon stops being a tool and becomes a worldview, we risk reducing the infinities of nature into a carbon machine we think we can dial up and down

Savannas as an example of misapplied tree planting

Temptation to plant trees in open landscapes

Perception of open land as a tree-planting opportunity[9:04]
• Mali shows a landscape with open treeless spaces and notes people may see an opportunity for tree planting
• He says people might think trees are inherently good, absorb carbon, and could offset a company's emissions with extensive tree planting there

Savanna richness depends on lack of trees

Explanation of what a savanna is[9:39]
• Mali clarifies that the landscape is a savanna
• He states that a savanna is rich precisely because of the lack of trees
Role of grasses, fires, and biodiversity[10:36]
• He explains that grasses in open spaces provide and nourish life
• Those grasses support life-regenerating fires
• They also support the unique and charismatic biodiversity of the savanna
Savannas should not be targets for intensive tree planting[11:11]
• Mali asserts that savannas should not be a focus for intensive tree planting for carbon capture and climate mitigation

Why vibrancy matters for adaptation to global change

Vibrancy as a buffer against climate change

Vibrancy increases adaptive capacity[11:14]
• Mali says vibrancy gives ecosystems and all who depend on them their best chance to adapt and cope with aspects of global change, including climate change

Transition to tropical atolls as a final example

Atolls as low-lying, climate-vulnerable islands[11:24]
• He introduces tropical atolls as low-lying islands less than one meter above sea level
• He notes they are often characterized as the first victims of climate change, destined to drown under rising seas in the next few decades
Questioning the inevitability of their loss[12:14]
• Mali poses the question "Or are they?" to challenge the assumption that atolls must drown

Research on tropical atolls: wild islands versus ghost islands

Viewing islands as integrated reef systems

Shifting from isolated to integrated perspectives[11:49]
• Mali explains that their project examined island systems as integrated and interconnected island-reef systems rather than islands in isolation
• He says that viewing them this way makes all the difference

Definitions of wild islands and ghost islands

Characteristics of wild islands[12:03]
• Mali defines wild islands as places where seabirds come to nest on the soil or in the branches of native vegetation
Characteristics of ghost islands[12:11]
• He describes ghost islands as ecologically depleted systems
• He notes that ghost islands may look like archetypal holiday paradises with swaying palm trees, white sand, and turquoise waters, but their vibrancy is dimmed

Causes of diminished vibrancy on ghost islands

Legacy of coconut plantations[12:47]
• Mali explains that many islands were once coconut plantations for an extensive coconut oil industry that has now largely collapsed
• These plantations are abandoned, but coconut trees overgrow and suppress the return of native vegetation
Impact of rats on seabirds[14:09]
• He notes that many islands are densely populated by rats brought by sailors
• The rats eat seabird eggs and prevent seabirds from nesting

Mapping flows from seabirds to forests to reefs and back

Following energy and nutrients through the system

Tracking flows from seabirds to forest and reef[13:46]
• Mali says the project followed the flow of energy and nutrients from seabirds through the forest and into the surrounding reef
Seabirds as nutrient importers[13:54]
• On wild islands, seabirds harvest fish from hundreds of kilometers away
• They bring the nutrients in those fish to the islands and deposit them in their poop, or guano, which fertilizes the island
Effects of guano on coral reefs and fish[14:09]
• The guano washes into the surrounding reef and increases the rate of coral growth
• It also increases the rate at which coral bounces back from bleaching events linked to heat waves
• Higher nutrients support a higher abundance of fish

Role of parrotfish and sand formation

Parrotfish feeding and sand production[13:23]
• Mali highlights parrotfish, which use their beaks to eat dead coral to get at algae inside
• In the process, parrotfish poop out the coral as sand
• He remarks that poop features a lot in his talk, probably more than in most TED talks
• The parrotfish-produced sand washes up to create the island
Quantifying parrotfish contribution to island sand[14:23]
• Mali reports that up to 85 percent of the sand on these islands originated as parrotfish poop
• He suggests that visitors on sandy white tropical beaches should think about and be grateful to parrotfish

Native vegetation and root networks stabilizing islands

Extraordinary fine root production[14:56]
• Mali says they found native vegetation producing 20 kilometers of fine roots in just one square meter of soil
• These roots bind the sand together and turn it into nourishing soil
• This allows the forest and the island itself to grow

Atoll growth rates versus sea-level rise and limits of adaptation

Quantifying growth of wild versus depleted islands

Closing the loop of birds, island, reef, and back[14:23]
• Mali summarizes that they described flows of energy, sediment, and nutrients from birds to island to reef and back to island
Wild islands can keep up with mid-level sea-level rise[14:34]
• He says that when they combined their numbers, they calculated that wild, vibrant islands full of seabirds, native vegetation, and non-overharvested fish can grow at rates that keep up with mid-level sea-level rise scenarios
Depleted islands are more likely to drown[15:39]
• Mali contrasts this with depleted islands, diminished in vibrancy, which would struggle more and are more likely to drown under rising tides

Acknowledging limits and avoiding complacency

Adaptation cannot justify inaction on climate[15:22]
• He stresses that extreme levels of sea-level rise would be hard to cope with
• He warns that signs of adaptation should not be used as an excuse to avoid tackling the urgency of climate change and sea-level rise

General principles: working with wild energies and biosphere vibrancy

Lessons from atolls applied more broadly

Need to maintain and restore vibrancy in atoll systems[15:31]
• Mali says we need to work with the vibrancy of atoll systems, maintaining and restoring it to give them the best chance of coping with climate change and rising sea levels for both ecosystems and communities
Wider principle across complex ecosystems[15:28]
• He believes a wider principle is emerging, though harder to see in most ecosystems that are more spatially entangled and complex
• He notes it is hard to predict the details of how ecosystems will respond to global change from climate and other factors
Working with wild energies to rebuild vibrancy[15:28]
• Mali states that the more we can work with wild energies of ecosystems and maintain and rebuild their vibrancy, the better their chances to cope with and adapt to coming changes
• He adds that this also gives humans, who depend on these ecosystems, the best chance to adapt

Applicability to agricultural systems, urban landscapes, and the whole Earth

Extending the principle beyond wild ecosystems[15:44]
• Mali says the principle applies to wild and semi-wild ecosystems, and also to agricultural systems and urban landscapes
Working with biosphere energies at planetary scale[15:59]
• He states that at the scale of the planet, we need to work with the energies of the biosphere to regenerate and restore them
• He envisions a world that is vibrant and thus possible, rather than a biosphere commodified, packaged, and industrialized to be subservient to human needs
• He concludes by calling for a resilient and regenerative planet where both humans and the rest of life on Earth can thrive and flourish

Talk context and production credits

Location, event, and date of the talk

TED Countdown Summit in Nairobi[16:26]
• Elise Hu identifies the talk as given by Yadvinder Mali at the TED Countdown Summit in Nairobi, Kenya, in 2025

TED production information

Curation and production credits[16:41]
• The host mentions TED's curation guidelines and notes that TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective
• She credits the TED research team for fact-checking and lists producers, editors, mixer, and additional support staff by name

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Complex systems are healthiest and most resilient when energy, resources, or information flow through many diverse pathways instead of being channeled into a single function or component.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your work or life have you allowed a single metric or channel to dominate how you allocate time, money, or attention?
  • • How could you intentionally diversify the pathways through which value and information flow in your organization, project, or daily routines?
  • • What is one concrete change you could make this month to reduce over-reliance on a single key person, product, or metric?
2

Looking at any problem in isolation can be misleading; seeing it as part of an integrated system often reveals hidden feedback loops, leverage points, and risks.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What important challenge you are facing right now might look different if you mapped all the surrounding people, processes, and environmental factors that influence it?
  • • How might your decisions change if you deliberately asked, "What upstream and downstream effects will this choice have?" before acting?
  • • Who or what sits "upstream" and "downstream" of your current projects, and how could you better align with them to improve outcomes?
3

Treating tools or metrics (like carbon or revenue) as the whole worldview narrows our options and can quietly erode the underlying health of the system we depend on.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which metric or goal tends to dominate your thinking (for example, profit, speed, growth, or social approval), and what might you be overlooking because of it?
  • • How could you redesign your scorecard for success so it includes indicators of long-term health, resilience, and relationships, not just short-term outputs?
  • • What is one decision you are making this week where you could consciously step back and ask, "What important value is missing from how I'm evaluating this?"
4

Working with the intrinsic "vibrancy" of a system-its existing energies, relationships, and capacities-creates more robust adaptation than trying to impose rigid, one-size-fits-all fixes.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In a team or community you are part of, what existing strengths, relationships, or informal practices could you build on instead of replacing?
  • • How might your current change initiative look if you focused first on amplifying what is already working well rather than importing an external solution?
  • • What is one area of your life where you could experiment with small, supportive adjustments that align with existing habits instead of forcing a drastic overhaul?
5

Human presence does not have to degrade complex systems; when guided by humility and understanding, people can actively contribute to healthier, more vibrant environments.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your work, home, or community do you automatically assume that "less human involvement" is always better, and is that assumption actually true?
  • • How could you redesign your own participation in a group or ecosystem so that you strengthen connections and diversity rather than simplify or dominate them?
  • • What is one practical step you can take this week to make your immediate environment-physical or social-slightly more supportive, diverse, or alive?

Episode Summary - Notes by River

How to measure the planet's heartbeat | Yadvinder Malhi
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