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TED Talks Daily

How to empower the next generation of pilots | Refilwe Ledwaba

with Refilwe Ledwaba

Published October 31, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

Airline and helicopter pilot and educator Refilwe Ledwaba shares her journey from flight attendant to becoming the first Black woman helicopter pilot in South Africa, highlighting how a supportive instructor redesigned training around her background and learning needs. She explains how those experiences inspired her to found Girls Fly Africa, which prepares young people-especially girls from rural and traditional communities-for careers in aviation and aerospace through information, skills training, financial support, networks, and long‑term mentorship. In a follow‑up conversation, she and TED Fellows Program Director Lily Jameson Olds discuss systemic barriers for women in aviation, the importance of community and role models, and her vision of normalizing women's presence in high‑level aviation roles.

Topics Covered

Women in STEM Airline industry Nonprofit organizations Mentorship Education system Resilience Perspective shift Personal Development Leadership and management Drones and military technology

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • A key turning point in Refilwe Ledwaba's career was a flight instructor who adapted training to her context and motor skills, enabling her to master helicopter hovering and finish ahead of her peers.
  • Girls Fly Africa addresses five main barriers for girls in aviation: lack of information and role models, limited technical skills, financial constraints, weak professional networks, and lack of long‑term support.
  • Most of the students in Girls Fly Africa come from rural, traditional communities where girls are not socialized to be assertive or to make critical decisions, which affects how they start aviation training.
  • Women remain significantly underrepresented in aviation and aerospace globally, with female airline pilots making up about 5.21% of licensed airline pilots worldwide.
  • Landing aircraft in rural communities with women pilots visibly at the controls helps shift local perceptions of what women can do and opens families up to non‑traditional careers for their daughters.
  • Equipping girls from underserved communities with aerospace and data skills can help them solve local socio‑economic issues such as medical supply delivery and agriculture.
  • Refilwe emphasizes reflecting on success-not just setbacks-to recognize the many people and resources that enable achievement and to inspire paying that support forward.
  • Her long‑term vision is a future where it is completely normal to see women as pilots, engineers, and astronauts, and where women's economic participation in high‑paying jobs helps reduce poverty and inequality.

Podcast Notes

Podcast introduction and framing of TED Fellows talk

Host introduces TED Talks Daily and TED Fellows Films

Elise Hu explains that TED Talks Daily brings new ideas every day[1:58]
She notes this episode is adapted from the 2025 TED Fellows Films series, released on certain Fridays[2:12]
She describes the TED Fellows program as supporting a network of global innovators whose work will be showcased[2:19]

Introduction of guest and topic

Host introduces airline pilot and flight instructor Refilwe Ledwaba[2:25]
Elise explains that for Refilwe, learning to fly required perseverance, drive, and an instructor who understood how she learned best[2:36]
She notes that Refilwe is a commercial airplane and helicopter pilot based in South Africa[2:33]
Host introduces Girls Fly Africa, the organization Refilwe founded to empower the next generation of pilots, particularly young women[2:46]
• Girls Fly Africa focuses on engineering skills, professional networks, and hands‑on experiences for youth
Host previews that Refilwe will explain what it takes to fly a plane, what it took to get her in the air, and why knowledge of flight matters even for non‑pilots[2:57]
Listeners are told there will be a follow‑up conversation between Refilwe and TED Fellows Program Director Lily Jameson Olds[3:09]

Refilwe's personal journey and the importance of acknowledging helpers

Reflecting on challenges and the people who remove barriers

Refilwe observes that people often talk about challenges but not about those who helped remove barriers[3:20]
• She notes we tend to cast others only as part of the problem, not part of the success
She calls for telling stories about individuals who removed obstacles and supported success[3:29]

Introduction of herself and her roles

She states her name: "My name is Refilwe Ledwaba"[3:31]
She describes herself as a helicopter and aeroplane pilot and an educator[3:34]
She is the founder of Girls Fly Africa, which teaches the next generation of young people, especially women, to learn how to fly[3:43]

Career path from air hostess to instructor

She started as an air hostess (cabin attendant)[3:46]
She transitioned into a helicopter pilot, then an aeroplane pilot for an airline, and then a flight instructor[3:51]
She states she was the first Black woman in South Africa to fly helicopters[3:58]

Encouragement from pilots while she was a cabin attendant

While working as a cabin attendant, some pilots told her she was smart and should be flying the aeroplane[4:03]
Pilots would call her to the cockpit during landings and takeoffs[4:12]
She recalls a captain asking if she could see what she was missing, which helped her realize flying was what she wanted to do[4:17]
• She describes seeing the view and experience as "awesome" and says that was the turning point where she took the idea of flying seriously

Training challenges and the power of contextualized instruction

Struggling with helicopter hovering

During helicopter training, she had difficulty with the maneuver called hovering[4:39]
She describes hovering as a highly coordinated maneuver[4:42]
Her helicopter would move from one corner to another because she would move one hand and then the other and the coordination "just didn't click"[4:44]
She was on the verge of being let go from the training program due to this difficulty[4:49]

Instructor change and personalized training approach

At that critical point, her instructor was changed[4:54]
Her new instructor took time to get to know her, asking about her background, how she grew up, and the activities she did[4:58]
• She notes that at that time she did not have a driver's license, had never driven a car, and did not have a bike growing up
She contrasts herself with typical flight school students, who usually have more developed motor skills[5:13]
Her instructor recognized that traditional training would not work for her and redesigned the program[5:19]
Within two flights under the redesigned approach, she overcame her hovering obstacle[5:21]
She went on to finish her training ahead of everybody else[5:28]
She emphasizes that the instructor did not have to go out of his way, as it was not part of the syllabus[5:33]

Inspiration to become an instructor and focus on context

She was inspired by how her instructor considered context, something she says people often overlook[5:42]
This experience motivated her to become a flight instructor herself[5:42]
She aimed to do for others what her instructor did for her, recognizing that many people share similar backgrounds and may struggle in the same ways[5:49]

Girls Fly Africa: mission, design, and impact

Overall mission and student background

She explains that Girls Fly Africa inspires young people, especially young women, to learn how to fly[5:59]
Most of their students come from rural areas and have never been exposed to the aviation industry[6:08]
Their program is designed by first examining the challenges these students might encounter[5:19]

First barrier: information and role models

She says the first issue is lack of information, similar to her own experience[6:25]
• She notes that she only knew about Tom Cruise as a flying figure, and he did not look like her
Students lack role models who look like them, and their communities hold preconceived ideas about what women should be doing[6:40]
Girls Fly Africa addresses this by landing aircraft in those areas so locals see women pilots exiting the airplane[5:59]
• She recounts an example where they landed at a student's school; the girl ran to the helicopter, took their numbers, joined camps and programs, and was assisted into becoming an aeronautical engineer

Second barrier: skills and capabilities

The second focus is on building skills and capabilities[7:11]
They place students in a simulator before actual flying begins[7:15]
They have engines available so students can work on them and see what an engine looks like before training[7:19]
Programs expose students to 3D technology where they build rockets and airplanes using 3D models[7:29]

Third barrier: financial constraints

The third issue is financial: many young people cannot afford to fly because it is too expensive[7:35]
• She jokes that if she had told her mother to pay for her flying, her mother would have smiled and compared the cost to that of a house
Through their scholarship program, they have been able to train more than 100 pilots, drone pilots, and flight instructors[7:54]

Fourth barrier: networks and job access

The fourth phase focuses on networks, as there is often no job waiting after training[7:55]
Girls Fly Africa advocates for graduates and connects them with job prospects so they can build flight hours and progress towards airline roles[8:07]

Fifth barrier: continuous support and long‑term growth

The last phase provides continuous support, based on the belief that true empowerment is achieved when participants are at the top of their game[8:17]
She wants graduates to become training captains and astronauts, not to stop at getting a degree[8:19]
They create a network for participants' continuous growth and progression[8:29]

Scale and outcomes so far

They have interacted with more than half a million boys and girls[8:36]
About 200,000 have gone through their programs, including workshops, simulator workshops, and five‑day camps[8:43]
In terms of direct training support or partnerships with organizations for training, they have helped more than 100 girls[8:47]
She notes that although 100 may sound small, training a pilot takes a long time[8:59]

Emphasizing support networks over focusing on negatives

She tells young people that although their challenges differ from hers, many people have helped them[9:09]
She asserts that more than 90% of people actually want them to succeed[9:09]
She observes that people tend to dwell on negatives and fail to highlight positives[9:17]
She credits a community of people-her mom, pilots who encouraged her, and her instructor-for nudging her and reinforcing that she could succeed[9:23]
Being supported has inspired her and made it feel normal to help others as she was helped[9:37]

Conversation between Refilwe and Lily Jameson Olds: personal experiences and program design

Opening of conversation and first‑flight experience

Lily greets Refilwe and expresses excitement about their conversation[12:04]
Lily notes that Refilwe was a flight attendant before becoming a pilot and asks how it felt the first time she was the one flying[12:19]
Refilwe says the feeling is hard to describe, highlighting the shift from always being at the back to suddenly being in front[12:28]
She recalls her first training flight, turning the airplane and thinking, "wow, this is amazing"[12:35]
She reflects on how much it took to get to the point of being in control and flying[12:46]
Looking outside on that first flight, she thought about logging her first flying hour in her logbook[13:02]
She reiterates that the experience is amazing and difficult to fully describe[13:04]

Becoming a pilot before driving a car and implications for her students

Lily asks if it is true that Refilwe had never driven a car before she started flying[13:12]
Refilwe confirms she had never driven a car and says she obtained her private pilot license (airplane) and commercial helicopter license before her driver's license[13:20]
Lily notes that some of Refilwe's students are similar in this respect and asks how she meets these girls where they are, given that traditional systems may overlook needed skills[13:42]
Refilwe agrees that many of the girls share her background of limited motor‑skill development opportunities, and adds that some come from even worse backgrounds[13:56]
She explains that most students come from deep rural areas, so they face not only motor‑skill gaps but also socialization in very traditional households[14:06]
In those environments, girls are not encouraged to be assertive, yet flying requires assertiveness because the pilot in command must make decisions[14:16]
She notes that these girls have not grown up engaging in activities that require critical decision‑making[14:28]
She clarifies that while their background is similar to hers in some respects, theirs can be even more challenging[14:36]

Designing programs based on the "worst‑case" starting point

When designing programs, they considered the worst‑case scenario: a girl from a deep rural area in South Africa[14:06]
They assumed such a girl had not driven a car and was doing duties traditionally assigned to young girls[15:04]
She notes that these girls are socialized in environments that expect them to follow certain careers, and aviation is far removed from their imagination[15:12]
They asked: if they took that girl and put her in the left‑hand seat of a 787 or A380, or made her an astronaut or aeronautical engineer, what barriers would she face?[15:22]
They then designed programs to address those barriers[15:30]
A key question was how to provide the motor skills these girls would normally have acquired growing up[15:50]
They began using technology such as simulators and actual flying to help students play, become comfortable, and adjust to being in the air[15:52]
She invites listeners to imagine never having driven a car-never using arms and legs simultaneously-and then adding the complexity of being in the air[16:04]
For these students, being in the air is a foreign concept, so the program focuses on building these foundational skills[16:20]
She argues that traditional training was not designed with such students in mind and does not consider this context[16:30]

Why teaching girls to fly matters and the gender gap in aviation

Reasons for focusing on girls in aviation and aerospace

Lily playfully asks why it matters to teach girls to fly and to train women and girls in aerospace and aviation sectors[16:54]
Refilwe responds that aviation has historically not been open to women due to systems and policies[17:02]
She stresses the importance of girls knowing aviation is now a viable career choice[17:12]
When she asks a girl what she wants to be, she wants aviation careers to be among the considered options[16:59]
She insists that if girls do not choose aviation, it should not be because they think they cannot or were told they would not succeed[17:28]
She frames the core issue as one of choice and considers having that choice very powerful[17:42]

Statistics on women in aerospace and aviation

She says that in the aerospace industry over the last 30 years, the percentage of women has remained around 20%[17:53]
She notes that only about 11% of astronauts have been women[17:56]
Citing ICAO statistics for 2016-2021, she says licensed female pilots increased from 3.6% to 4.0%[18:08]
Female aircraft maintenance engineers rose from 2.7% to 3.0%[18:23]
Female air traffic controllers remained at about 20%[18:30]
She checked ICAO live data and reports that female licensed airline pilots are at about 5.21% globally[18:42]
She emphasizes that this is a global issue, not limited to South Africa or Africa[18:50]

Perceptions, socialization, and representation as barriers

Perceptions about women's capabilities

Lily asks why numbers are so low and what bias exists against women in aviation and aerospace[18:59]
Refilwe says there is a strong perception about what jobs women can do, making it hard to convince people women can do other jobs[19:08]
She argues that we should examine how girls are socialized rather than conclude women inherently struggle[19:08]
Using South Africa as an example, she says rural girls grow up being taught certain things and start training behind where people assume they should be[19:41]
Such starting points lead to comments that women are struggling, without considering their context[19:54]
She notes that culture, assertiveness, and spatial reasoning are important but rarely discussed, and these are developed from a very young age[20:09]
She calls for enabling girls and women to participate by addressing their context, not by lowering standards[20:21]
She acknowledges that context differs between regions like Europe, Africa, and the U.S., but some issues are shared, such as girls believing they cannot pursue certain careers[19:41]

Role of media and visible role models

She points out that when girls watch TV or advertisements about flying, pilots are almost always depicted as male[21:03]
Because of this, aviation is never centered as something girls might see themselves doing[21:05]
Lily mentions how Girls Fly Africa lands aircraft in communities with women pilots, allowing residents to directly see female role models[20:21]

Working with communities and leveraging aerospace for socio‑economic impact

Engaging families and understanding root causes

Lily asks for other examples of how they work with girls, families, and communities to address cultural barriers while respecting local contexts[21:31]
Refilwe says they go into communities and engage directly to understand root causes of issues like how girls are socialized[22:11]
She notes that in many communities, especially on their continent but also elsewhere, girls are raised in ways that prepare them primarily for marriage[22:21]
Families may do this because of perceived economic benefits, expecting that a wealthier spouse will improve their situation[21:53]
By landing as women pilots and engaging gently with communities, they show that women can be economically independent and support their communities[21:53]

Using aerospace skills to address local challenges

She emphasizes that socio‑economic issues in communities are best solved by young people from those communities who understand the problems[23:09]
She gives examples of issues such as delivery of critical medical supplies and agriculture[23:30]
By teaching girls about drones, satellites, and data, they can later use those tools to tackle these local issues[22:27]
Empowering girls with knowledge and technology enables them to improve the lives of people in their communities[22:27]
She argues that making aviation and aerospace more inclusive has long‑term benefits not only for the girls and their families, but for entire communities[23:53]

Visible success stories influencing families and younger siblings

She notes they are already seeing younger sisters of program alumnae follow in their footsteps, becoming engineers[24:11]
She says that 10 years ago, these younger girls might not have thought engineering was an option[24:19]
When graduates return driving a car, community members notice and connect that achievement to becoming a pilot[24:27]
Seeing tangible outcomes makes communities more open to Girls Fly Africa's programs and to girls pursuing non‑traditional careers[24:35]

Gender inequality, economics, and the case for girls in high‑paying jobs

South African context: poverty, inequality, and unemployment

Refilwe adds that in South Africa they face very high youth unemployment and the highest inequality in the world[25:01]
She cites a Gini coefficient of about 0.7 for South Africa[25:09]
She notes that women are worst off in unemployment statistics[25:15]
She refers to South Africa's "triple challenge": poverty, inequality, and unemployment[25:19]

Economic benefits of reducing gender inequality

She mentions statistics showing that reducing gender inequality, especially by increasing women's access to high‑paying jobs, significantly reduces poverty[25:19]
Raising women's income levels also reduces unemployment and increases economic growth[25:44]
She concludes that these reasons show why they need girls in the aviation and aerospace pipeline[25:48]

Rethinking success, recognizing silent supporters, and paying it forward

Reflecting on success as well as setbacks

Lily notes that Refilwe urges people to think about who has helped them succeed and asks how we can cultivate this mindset and be shoulders for others[26:10]
Refilwe observes that when we experience setbacks, we typically reflect on their causes and how to address them[26:24]
She says that when people are successful, they often do not reflect in the same way[26:32]
She intentionally reversed this pattern by reflecting on why things went well and why she succeeded[26:46]
Through this reflection, she realized that beyond hard work and some brilliance, resources and people had enabled her[26:58]
She gives the example of someone having built a library that allowed her to access books and cultivate her love of reading and studying[27:04]
She concludes that it takes a village and community to move from where you were to where you are supposed to be[27:15]
This shift in thinking motivated her to create opportunities for others[27:29]

Recognizing "silent giants" and earlier attempts

She notes that even when she is the first to do something, someone else may have tried before and not succeeded[27:34]
Those earlier attempts laid foundations for her to take the next step[27:40]
She refers to "silent giants" who are not usually mentioned because they may not have reached her level but played critical roles in her journey[28:01]
She implies that acknowledging these silent contributors is part of standing on others' shoulders and inspires her own support for others[27:29]

Future vision for Girls Fly Africa and normalizing women in aviation

Expanding impact and changing perceptions

Lily asks about Refilwe's next big dream or hope for herself and for Girls Fly Africa[28:42]
Refilwe says they want to continue their work and, importantly, change perceptions of women[28:45]
By showing concrete results of women doing critical jobs and succeeding, they hope to shift views about what women can do[28:56]
She wants the debate to move away from whether women can do certain jobs to how to enable them (and young people generally), considering their context and background[29:12]
She notes their work is long‑term and follows a five‑phase approach, not just short visits to communities[29:37]
For the future, they aim to refine this process and keep learning from communities, incorporating good practices into their programs[29:43]
She envisions many more "Refilwes" emerging as aerospace and aeronautical engineers and similar professionals[29:56]
She wants a future where seeing a woman pilot at the airport does not prompt surprise such as "oh, a woman flying"[30:09]
Her dream is to normalize women's presence in the aviation industry[30:15]

Continuing to fly as an active role model

She reminds listeners that she is also a pilot and needs to keep flying as much as possible[30:23]
She stresses the importance of young people seeing her and other women actively doing the jobs they are encouraging them to pursue[30:36]
She mentions she has the privilege of flying everything-from airlines to helicopters-and intends to continue[30:43]
Lily thanks Refilwe, saying it was a joy to speak with her[30:55]

Closing credits and TED Fellows information

TED Fellows program mention

Elise Hu identifies Refilwe Ledwaba as a 2025 TED Fellow[30:58]
Listeners are directed to fellows.ted.com to learn more about the TED Fellows program and watch TED Fellows films[31:06]

Production credits

Elise credits the episode's producer, editor, fact‑checker, film makers, story editor, producer, and video production manager, as well as other support staff[31:30]
She notes that TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective[31:37]
Elise signs off, saying she will be back tomorrow with a fresh idea[31:52]

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Tailoring education and training to an individual's background and context can unlock potential that standardized methods might misjudge as failure.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your work or life are you expecting people to succeed with a one-size-fits-all approach instead of adapting to their starting point?
  • • How could learning more about someone's background change the way you teach, manage, or collaborate with them this month?
  • • What specific adjustment to a process or training could you experiment with this week to better match the skills and experiences of the people involved?
2

Actively reflecting on your successes, not just your setbacks, reveals the often-invisible people and structures that enabled you-and highlights your responsibility to pay that support forward.

Reflection Questions:

  • • When you think about a recent success, who provided resources, encouragement, or access that made it possible?
  • • How might regularly auditing the "silent giants" behind your achievements change the way you talk about your own success and privilege?
  • • What concrete step could you take in the next two weeks to become that kind of enabling presence for someone else?
3

Representation and visibility are powerful levers for changing what people believe is possible, especially for young people choosing a path.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What careers or roles did you unconsciously rule out when you were younger because you never saw anyone like you doing them?
  • • How could you more visibly model your own path or platform so that others can realistically imagine themselves in similar roles?
  • • What is one practical way you could bring real-life role models into a classroom, workplace, or community you care about this year?
4

Designing opportunities from the perspective of the most disadvantaged person in the system often produces more inclusive, resilient pathways for everyone.

Reflection Questions:

  • • If you reimagined one program or process you're responsible for around the "worst-case" starting point, what would need to change?
  • • How might involving people from marginalized backgrounds in the design phase improve the relevance and impact of your initiatives?
  • • What is one barrier-financial, informational, or social-you could intentionally remove for the person who is least likely to succeed under the current rules?
5

Expanding women's access to high-skill, high-paying fields is not only about fairness; it is a strategic way to reduce poverty, unemployment, and inequality at scale.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where do gendered assumptions still shape hiring, training, or outreach in your organization or community, even subtly?
  • • How could you reframe investments in women's education and careers as core economic strategy rather than side projects or charity?
  • • What is one initiative you could support or start that helps women move into higher-value roles, and how will you measure its broader impact?
6

Giving young people cutting-edge technical skills that are directly tied to their communities' real problems equips them to become local problem-solvers rather than just job seekers.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What pressing issues exist in your community that could be addressed if more young people had specific technical or analytical skills?
  • • How might you connect education or training programs you influence to concrete local challenges, as opposed to abstract curricula?
  • • What partnership or project could you initiate this year that simultaneously builds youth skills and tackles a real socio-economic need where you live?

Episode Summary - Notes by Devon

How to empower the next generation of pilots | Refilwe Ledwaba
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