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Stuff You Should Know

Short Stuff: Pies

Published November 26, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

The hosts discuss the history and evolution of pies from ancient galettes in Egypt through Greek and Roman adaptations, medieval English meat pies, and global pie-like dishes. They then spotlight several iconic pies-pumpkin, apple, cherry, Boston cream, and key lime-exploring their origins, cultural associations, and personal preferences for how they should be served and enjoyed.

Topics Covered

Culinary history Pies Desserts Baking Pastry Pumpkin pie Apple pie Cherry pie Boston cream pie Key lime pie

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Quick Takeaways

  • Pies trace back at least 8,000 years to Egyptian galettes made with grains and honey, evolving through Greek and Roman adaptations into more recognizable pastry traditions.
  • Medieval English pies were often savory meat dishes with inedible crusts called "coffins," designed primarily to contain and cook fillings rather than to be eaten themselves.
  • Showpiece pies in early modern Europe were sometimes baked empty and then filled with live birds or even musicians as entertainment for royal courts, inspiring rhymes like "Sing a Song of Sixpence."
  • Pumpkin pie, often seen as quintessentially American, actually first appeared as a recipe in 17th-century French cookbooks before showing up in American cookery in the late 18th century.
  • Apple pie became symbolically linked with American identity through phrases like "as American as apple pie" and the World War II slogan of soldiers fighting "for mom and apple pie."
  • Boston cream pie is technically a cake whose name derives from an earlier dessert, Washington pie, which was a cake baked in a pie crust.
  • Key lime pie likely originated in Key West in the 19th century and became standardized enough that even convenience-store versions can be reasonably satisfying.
  • The hosts favor sweet dessert pies like key lime, Dutch apple, and pecan, but also appreciate savory pies and hand pies from various culinary traditions.

Podcast Notes

Introduction and setup of the pie-focused Short Stuff episode

Hosts introduce the episode and frame it around pies

Josh opens the "delicious short stuff" episode[1:14]
• Josh notes that Jerry and Dave are not present, but there will be a lot of pie talk
Lighthearted tone about overeating pie[1:14]
• Josh jokes that listeners should "unbuckle" their top button or belt loop because the discussion makes him want to eat pie
Connection to previous cake episode[1:34]
• Chuck recalls they talked a bit about pie and the merits of pie in their earlier episode on cake
Reference to Paul F. Tompkins' cake vs. pie comedy bit[1:39]
• Josh mentions a "legendary" Paul F. Tompkins bit on cake versus pie from long ago and calls it a good bit

Ancient and classical origins of pies

Early Egyptian galettes and the beginnings of pie

Timeline of early pies[2:17]
• Josh says pie has been around for thousands of years, but only in the last few hundred has it resembled what we know as pie today
Description of Egyptian galettes[2:10]
• Josh notes that around 8,000 years ago in Egypt they made rustic galettes-a messy, semi-sweet grains-based dish-baked over hot coals
• Honey was used as the sweetener in these early Egyptian preparations
Relationship between early agriculture and pies[2:17]
• Josh points out that 8,000 years ago is not long after humans started domesticating crops
• He concludes that pies were among the first dishes people made once agriculture began

Greek adaptation of Egyptian galettes

Greeks adopt and change the dish[2:28]
• Josh says the Greeks "ganked" the galette idea about 5,000 years later, continuing the tradition of borrowing from Egyptians
Shift from sweet to savory fillings[3:40]
• Chuck calls it a historic crime that Greeks replaced sweet fillings like honey with meats
• He clarifies he likes meat pies but feels they hadn't explored sweet pies enough to move away from them

Invention of pastry dough by the Greeks

Development of pastry-style crusts[2:58]
• Josh credits the Greeks with creating pastry dough essentially like what we think of today
• Chuck calls this a big leap forward in dough technology

Roman role in spreading pie traditions

Romans as transmitters rather than innovators[3:04]
• Josh says Romans did not add much technique or tradition but brought pies to Europe
• He notes that pies really flourished once they were in European hands

Global pie-like dishes and medieval English pies

Global variants that are essentially pies

Recognition of pie-like foods worldwide[3:23]
• Josh says that looking back at dishes from around the world, many can be recognized as a form of pie
Examples of international pies[3:50]
• They mention sambousa in Ethiopia, described as a hand pie
• Empanadas are cited from Spain and Latin America
• Spanakopita in Greece is given as another example
• Josh mentions Zwiebelkuchen from Germany, a savory and sweet pie he would love to try
• They also reference tourtière from Quebec as a savory meat pie

Distinction between sweet and savory pies in personal preferences

Hosts' reactions to meat pies[3:50]
• Chuck reiterates he likes meat pies and has no problem with them
• Josh and Chuck agree both sweet and savory pies have a place
What the word "pie" evokes for the hosts[3:58]
• Josh says when he hears the word "pie", he immediately thinks of a sweet dessert pie
• He also expresses love for Jamaican hand pies and empanadas
• Chuck comments on struggling to find the ñ character when writing "empanada" in Word

Tour stories and British pork pies

Josh's fondness for pork pies in the UK[4:18]
• Josh recalls getting hooked on pork pies when they were on tour in the UK
Pork pie hats joke[4:25]
• Chuck jokes about getting hooked on pork pie hats instead and Josh jokes he tried to eat one off Chuck's head

Medieval English pies: PYE and coffins

English experimentation with fillings and naming[4:32]
• Josh says English pies got interesting with any kind of meat, including fish, and were sometimes spelled "P-Y-E"
Use of bones and legs as handles[4:47]
• Josh notes they would bake game bird legs in the pie, hanging over the side as handles
• Chuck and Josh discuss grabbing the pheasant by the leg, with Josh clarifying he means the whole leg down to the toenails
Pies called "coffins"[5:19]
• Josh says the English called pies "coffins" (with two F's and a Y), meaning box
• He explains coffins had sturdy walls, a sturdy bottom, and a crust over the top, essentially forming a box

Function of crusts and emergence of tarts

Purpose of crusts in early pies[5:35]
• Josh says pies were meant to seal in juices of savory meat mixtures and to bake and serve multiple items together as one dish
• He notes that in medieval England, the rich considered the crust inedible and only the lower classes ate it when necessary
Tarts as topless pies[5:49]
• Josh explains that pies without tops were called tarts, as they still are today
• He suggests tarts were more pastry-forward and intended to be edible

Historical recipes and spectacle pies in Europe

Early European pie recipes in cookbooks

Timeline of written recipes[6:15]
• Josh says pie recipes started appearing in European cookbooks as far back as the 1300s
• He references a 1553 German cookbook he saw mentioned, though he did not examine the original book
Technique of puffing the pie lid[6:09]
• Josh describes a recipe advising to put a hole in the middle of the pie lid, blow into it to puff it up, then seal it for a dramatic table presentation
• He notes that such a recipe implies the pie was baked empty, with nothing inside

Showpiece pies filled with live creatures or performers

Trend of empty-baked pies used as containers[6:48]
• Josh explains a European trend (roughly 15th-18th centuries) where pies were baked empty and then filled with live things before serving at royal dinners
Connection to "Sing a Song of Sixpence"[7:16]
• Josh ties this practice to the rhyme "Sing a Song of Sixpence" with "four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie" that would be served before the king
• He clarifies that the rhyme describes these showpiece pies where birds flew out when the pie was opened
Examples of live-content pies[7:11]
• Josh says pies were large enough that when opened, birds would fly out or a string ensemble could stand up and begin playing
Clarification on not baking the live contents[7:54]
• Chuck asks how people and birds were not killed by baking inside the pie
• Josh explains that the pastry was baked first and then filled with live birds or people afterward
• He reiterates the process of assembling, baking, then adding contents via an opening before serving
Speculation on pie access points[7:59]
• Josh imagines there was a small door cut into the side of the pie for performers or animals to be inserted

Pop-culture reference: The Pie Hole from "Pushing Daisies"

The Pie Hole as a fictional pie shop[8:19]
• Josh recalls the TV show "Pushing Daisies," where the protagonist runs a pie shop called The Pie Hole
Josh's recommendation[8:21]
• He describes the show as "sweet, neat, cute" and urges Chuck to move it toward the top of his to-watch list

Overview of five all-time great pies

Transition back from break and Thanksgiving timing

List of pies to be discussed[10:52]
• Josh says they will mention five all-time great pies
Context of recording relative to Thanksgiving[10:57]
• Chuck notes that in their real time, it is a couple of weeks before Thanksgiving

Pumpkin pie: origins and development

Pumpkin pie in colonial America and Native contributions

Pumpkins introduced to colonists[11:03]
• Chuck says pumpkin pie was brought to the New World by colonists on the Mayflower
• He notes that Native Americans introduced colonists to pumpkins
Early pumpkin preparations[11:00]
• Josh explains that early pumpkin pies used the pumpkin itself as the crust: they hollowed it, added honey and spices, and baked it over hot coals

French codification of pumpkin pie

Pumpkin pie recipe appears in France first[11:25]
• Josh says pumpkin pie and pumpkins were exported to France within a couple of decades
• He notes the first recipe mentioning pumpkin pie, called Pompillon pie, appeared in a French cookbook in 1651
Arrival in American cookbooks[11:10]
• Josh says it took about another century before pumpkin pie appeared in an American cookbook

First American pumpkin pie recipe

Amelia Simmons and American Cookery[12:17]
• Chuck identifies the first American cookbook as Amelia Simmons' 1796 "American Cookery by an American Orphan"
• He notes pumpkin pie was included and described as a pumpkin pudding baked in a pie shell
• Josh argues that baking a pumpkin pudding in a pie shell qualifies as pumpkin pie

Apple pie and its association with American identity

Challenging the idea that apple pie is purely American

Common belief vs. botanical reality[12:09]
• Josh introduces apple pie as being seen as 100% American
• Chuck counters that apples are native to Asia and were brought to the New World by colonists

Dutch mastery of apple pie

Historical Dutch apple pie[13:00]
• Chuck calls Dutch apple pie the perfect apple pie
• He says the Dutch had mastered apple pie a couple of hundred years before apples came to the New World
Misconception about when Dutch apple pie emerged[13:00]
• Josh jokes he thought Dutch apple pie was invented in the 1970s, but Chuck corrects him that it was centuries earlier

Phrases linking apple pie and American-ness

Origin of "as American as apple pie"[13:25]
• Josh says apple pie's association with America comes partly from the phrase "as American as apple pie"
• Chuck cites its first printed use in 1928 referring to First Lady Lou Hoover as "as American as apple pie"
World War II slogan "for mom and apple pie"[13:00]
• Josh mentions the saying "as American as moms and baseball" alongside apple pie
• Chuck explains that in World War II, GIs reportedly said they were fighting "for mom and apple pie" when asked why they went to war
• Josh adds a darkly humorous comment about helmets not really protecting soldiers

Cherry pie, Boston cream pie, and related baked goods

Cherry pie preferences and serving style

Relative ranking of cherry pie[14:17]
• Chuck says cherry pie is not his favorite and he prefers pumpkin, apple, or key lime first
• He would still eat a slice of cherry pie with ice cream if offered
Sourness and temperature considerations[13:27]
• Josh says he enjoys cherry pie as long as it isn't sour
• Chuck contrasts a warm cherry pie he prefers with cold versions where the filling has gelled
• Josh notes that served warm like apple pie, cherry pie can be excellent
House of Pies example[14:37]
• Chuck recalls House of Pies in Los Feliz (Los Angeles) having many great pies, including cherry

Historical origin of cherry pie

Association with Queen Elizabeth I[13:56]
• Josh says the first cherry pie was either made for Queen Elizabeth I or by her in the 16th century
• He notes cherry pie is one of the oldest pies still around today

Boston cream pie: a cake with a pie name

Clarifying that Boston cream pie is actually cake[15:12]
• Chuck acknowledges some may object that Boston cream pie is basically a layer cake, and Josh agrees
• Josh admits he had never had Boston cream pie and then found its history more interesting than expected
Connection to Washington pie and pie crusts[14:30]
• Josh explains Boston cream pie evolved from Washington pie, which was a cake baked in a pie crust
• Boston cream pie dropped the crust but retained the word "pie" in its name

Parker House Hotel and Parker House rolls

Hotel origin of Boston cream pie[15:12]
• Chuck notes Boston cream pie was invented for the 1856 grand opening of the Parker House Hotel
• He speculates that Parker House rolls likely originated there as well
Description and popularity of Parker House rolls[14:37]
• Chuck describes Parker House rolls as big, beautiful, flaky, buttery rolls with sea salt on top
• He says they are often served in a four-pack at nice restaurants and calls them one of the best things in the world
Comparison to King's Hawaiian rolls[15:00]
• Josh suggests Parker House rolls sound similar to King's Hawaiian rolls
• Chuck says King's Hawaiian rolls are the Hawaiian sweet version of Parker House rolls
Josh's stay at the Parker House[16:04]
• Josh mentions he has stayed at the Parker House, now an Omni hotel
• He jokes that he briefly worried about getting Legionnaire's disease while staying there

Key lime pie and related citrus pies

Key lime pie as the pride of Florida

Encouragement to try key lime pie[17:09]
• Josh calls key lime pie the pride of Florida
• He says if you've never had a slice, you're cheating yourself and should get one
Hosts' favorite pies[17:25]
• Josh lists key lime as one of his top two pies
• Chuck lists his top three pies as pecan, Dutch apple, and key lime

Standardization and accessibility of key lime pie

Quality of convenience-store key lime pie[17:39]
• Josh says that while a 7-Eleven key lime pie slice isn't as good as one from the Florida Keys, it's still decent because of standardized preparation methods
• He encourages people not to be purists and to enjoy key lime pie in whatever form they can get

Origin stories of key lime pie

Aunt Sally and the Curry House story[18:07]
• Josh shares local lore that a woman known only as Aunt Sally created key lime pie in late 19th-century Key West
• She is said to have worked at the Curry House, estate of Florida's first millionaire William Curry
• According to the story, she adapted the recipe from local Key West fishermen who had developed it
Alternative Borden condensed milk origin story[18:41]
• Chuck notes another version where key lime pies came later and were adapted from a New York recipe for "magic lemon cream pies" published by Borden Condensed Milk in the 1930s
• He adds some claim it was actually the opposite-that Borden took inspiration from existing key lime pies
Praise for condensed milk products[18:41]
• Chuck gives "hats off" to Borden condensed milk, calling it the best
• Josh mentions ube condensed milk (not from Borden) and says it is incredibly delicious

Lemon icebox pie as a cousin to key lime pie

Family recipe: Lemon icebox pie[18:37]
• Chuck says his grandmother made a lemon icebox pie, very similar to key lime pie but using lemon
• He notes it does not include meringue
Debate over meringue vs whipped cream[18:47]
• Chuck questions why anyone would "ruin" a lemon pie by putting meringue on it
• Josh says he can go either way on meringue but would prefer replacing it with Ready Whip

Closing thoughts and urge to eat pie

Hosts' immediate post-recording plans

Desire for pie after the episode[19:10]
• Chuck says it's obvious they are going to immediately start eating pie after recording
Encouragement to listeners[19:10]
• He encourages listeners to go enjoy some pie as well
Formal sign-off[19:10]
• Chuck ends the episode by saying "Short Stuff is out"

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Food traditions evolve through borrowing and adaptation, with cultures taking existing ideas-like early galettes-and reshaping them into new forms that suit their tastes and technologies.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What foods in your own life clearly show influences from multiple cultures or time periods?
  • • How could you intentionally experiment with an existing recipe or process you use and adapt it to better fit your current needs?
  • • Where in your work or hobbies might you be clinging to an "original" version instead of allowing useful adaptations to emerge?
2

Names and symbols can outlive their literal accuracy, as seen with Boston cream pie being a cake and apple pie becoming a shorthand for American identity despite its non-American botanical origins.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which labels or symbols in your environment no longer match reality but still influence how people think and act?
  • • How might questioning the literal meaning behind familiar phrases or brand names change the way you interpret them?
  • • What is one belief or label you use regularly that you could re-examine this week to see if it still serves you?
3

Presentation and context can dramatically shape the experience of something, just as historical pies were used as spectacular showpieces with live contents to impress guests.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your life are you focusing only on the substance of your work and neglecting how it is presented to others?
  • • How could you redesign the way you present a key idea, product, or message so that it captures more attention and engagement?
  • • What is one upcoming interaction (a meeting, email, or event) where you could improve the "presentation" without changing the underlying content?
4

Accessibility often matters more than purity; enjoying a decent key lime pie from a convenience store can be better than waiting indefinitely for a "perfect" one from an ideal location.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In what areas of your life are you holding out for an ideal experience instead of taking advantage of a good-enough option now?
  • • How might embracing a "good enough" version of something help you build momentum toward a longer-term goal?
  • • What is one project, habit, or experience you could start this week in an imperfect but accessible way rather than waiting for perfect conditions?

Episode Summary - Notes by Charlie

Short Stuff: Pies
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