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Stuff You Should Know

Selects: How Schoolhouse Rock Rocked: Featuring Bob Nastanovich of Pavement

with Bob Nastanovich

Published October 11, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

The hosts revisit the history and cultural impact of the educational cartoon series Schoolhouse Rock, tracing its origins in a 1970s advertising agency, the role of jazz musician Bob Dorough, and the evolution of its themed seasons on math, grammar, civics, and science. They discuss standout songs, how the show balanced sophisticated music with kid-friendly concepts, its decline with the computer-focused Scooter Computer and Mr. Chips segments, and its 1990s revival and later stage and media adaptations, including tributes and critiques of its simplified historical narratives. In an added interview, Pavement's Bob Nastanovich describes how the band came to record a highly personalized version of "No More Kings" for the 1990s tribute album, and the episode closes with a listener letter about grief, nostalgia, and family memories tied to the show.

Topics Covered

Schoolhouse Rock Educational television Advertising to children Nostalgia Television history Education system Music career Saturday morning cartoons Pavement (band) Cultural inheritance

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • Schoolhouse Rock began when ad executive David McCall realized his son could memorize rock lyrics but not multiplication tables, inspiring the use of pop-style songs to teach academic concepts.
  • Jazz musician Bob Dorough wrote and sang most of the early songs, deliberately refusing to talk down to kids and using sophisticated musical and lyrical structures.
  • The series evolved through themed "seasons" like Multiplication Rock, Grammar Rock, America/History Rock, and Science Rock, with standout hits such as "Three Is a Magic Number," "Conjunction Junction," and "I'm Just a Bill."
  • A later computer-themed season, Scooter Computer and Mr. Chips, reversed the creative process and dated quickly, contributing to the series' decline and cancellation in 1985.
  • Schoolhouse Rock enjoyed a strong 1990s revival via reruns, new Money Rock episodes, a stage musical, and the tribute album "Schoolhouse Rock Rocks," on which Pavement recorded a distinctive version of "No More Kings."
  • Some America Rock episodes, like "Elbow Room," have been criticized for promoting a simplified, Manifest Destiny-style view of U.S. history that omits Native American perspectives.
  • Pavement's Bob Nastanovich recalls their "No More Kings" cover being recorded quickly during repurposed studio time, with drummer Steve West's deep-voiced ranting becoming a key element.
  • A listener letter illustrates how both Schoolhouse Rock and the podcast are deeply tied to family memories, grief, and healing, especially through shared experiences like skiing trips.

Podcast Notes

Introduction and context for the replayed Schoolhouse Rock episode

Setting up the episode and Saturday morning cartoons theme

Host references a recent episode on Saturday Morning Cartoons and encourages listeners to watch cartoons for nostalgia[1:04]
They explain this is a replay of an older Schoolhouse Rock episode, released in the same week as the cartoons episode[1:15]
They describe Schoolhouse Rock as a fundamental learning and entertainment source for them and much of Generation X[1:32]
They introduce the episode title "How Schoolhouse Rock Rocked" and note it features Bob Nastanovich of Pavement[1:43]

Opening of the original episode and generational connection to Schoolhouse Rock

Theme song and age range of core Schoolhouse Rock audience

They mention having just heard the Schoolhouse Rock theme song at the top of the episode[2:28]
They discuss age ranges of people who grew up with Schoolhouse Rock, roughly mid-30s to mid-50s at time of recording[2:56]
• One host notes he was toward the tail end of Schoolhouse Rock's original run but still very into it
They say if the theme song triggered an emotional reaction, you likely grew up in the 1970s and 1980s[3:09]

Personal love for Schoolhouse Rock and continued listening

One host calls Schoolhouse Rock one of his favorite things in the world and says he still loves it[3:31]
He mentions still listening to Schoolhouse Rock semi-regularly[3:37]
The other host says he revisited many clips during research and found the memories came flooding back[3:50]

Origins of Schoolhouse Rock in a 1970s advertising agency

Love of the 1970s and nostalgia

They praise the 1970s as possibly the greatest decade, despite acknowledging problems like Nixon's presidency[5:10]
One host notes the decade hits all his boxes and reminds him of a happy childhood[5:50]
They briefly reference their prior nostalgia episode and disagree with John Hodgman's stance on nostalgia[5:57]

David McCall's idea during a family vacation

In the early 1970s, ad man David McCall, co-owner of McCaffrey and McCall, noticed his son struggled with multiplication tables[6:04]
On a family car trip, McCall's son easily recalled Rolling Stones lyrics, highlighting his ability to memorize non-school material[6:28]
McCall realized his son could memorize, but something about the way math was presented blocked retention[6:17]
He wondered if setting educational material to catchy, popular-sounding music could solve this, not just using any music but pop-like songs paired to concepts[7:00]
• They emphasize that mnemonic songs weren't new, but using contemporary pop styles to teach concepts was a twist

Applying advertising techniques to education

They note McCall worked in advertising, which specializes in making jingles that lodge in people's heads and influence behavior[7:37]
He thought the same techniques used to sell products could be used to "sell" educational concepts to children[7:50]
They describe this as using jingles to get kids to memorize information instead of buying things, though one host jokes you can buy more stuff if you learn more[8:11]

Initial failed jingle and bringing in George Newell

McCall presented the idea to co-creative director George Newell, who liked it and told him to "get someone on it"[8:27]
An in-house jingle writer was commissioned but the first attempt wasn't very good and could have killed the project[8:35]
They sympathize with this unnamed writer, noting he is remembered as the one Schoolhouse Rock contributor who didn't make it or almost derailed it[8:52]

Recruiting jazz musician Bob Dorough

Newell, a jazz piano player, approached his friend Bob Dorough, a bebop jazz pianist and composer, to write a song for the project[9:17]
They quote Dorough saying others wrote "down to kids," but McCall told him not to, which gave him a chill because he had a high opinion of children[9:36]
The hosts highlight that not writing in a remedial way for children was key to the project's tone[9:49]

Creation of "Three Is a Magic Number"

Dorough went home, took his daughter's textbooks, and wrote the first song, "Three Is a Magic Number," to tackle multiplication[10:31]
They describe the song as "far out" and note it includes symbolism like faith, hope, and charity, and heart, mind, and body[11:18]
One host calls it one of the best and his favorite of the multiplication songs; the other says it's cool but surprising as the keystone of the series[11:01]
• They briefly mention having previously done a podcast on the number zero and muse about doing one on the number three because it feels special

From song to educational tool: testing and adding animation

Testing "Three Is a Magic Number" at Bank Street College

McCall, on the board of Bank Street College of Education in New York, took the song there as a potential learning tool[13:22]
They played it for students, who responded enthusiastically, confirming its educational appeal[13:34]

Visual development with art director Tom Yohe

Art director Tom Yohe (they debate pronouncing it "Yo" or "Yo-he") was asked to create storyboards and animation concepts for the song[13:55]
The hosts emphasize that the magic of Schoolhouse Rock came from combining visuals with music and educational content, not just the songs alone[14:12]
They note the initial idea had been only to release an album, but Yohe's visuals showed the power of pairing animation with the songs[14:36]

Pitching Schoolhouse Rock to ABC and launch as interstitial programming

Meeting with ABC executives Michael Eisner and Chuck Jones

They describe taking the demo tape and storyboards to Radford Stone, an account supervisor and VP for ABC[15:00]
Stone arranged a meeting with young ABC children's programming executive Michael Eisner and brought in famed animator Chuck Jones[15:07]
After seeing the storyboard and hearing the demo, everyone turned to Chuck Jones, who simply said "buy it," leading ABC to pick up the project[15:35]

Interstitial format and premiere

Schoolhouse Rock began airing on ABC's Saturday morning lineup as interstitial programming between cartoon episodes, not as a full show[19:08]
The first weekend of broadcast was January 6-7, 1973[19:32]
Initially, it was conceived solely as an album called Multiplication Rock until they realized the importance of visuals and television placement[19:57]
The first four songs aired that weekend were "Three Is a Magic Number," "Four-Legged Zoo," "Elementary, My Dear," and "My Hero Zero"[20:01]
"My Hero Zero" is singled out as a big hit despite their joking about zero not being magical[20:09]

Songwriting, jazz influence, and early recognition

Bob Dorough wrote and sang all the Multiplication Rock songs except "Naughty Number Nine" (sung by Grady Tate) and "Figure Eight" (sung by Blossom Dearie)[22:16]
They emphasize that they "struck gold" with Dorough as the initial creative force[22:27]
The compilation album Multiplication Rock was nominated for a Grammy in 1974 but lost to Sesame Street[22:01]
Kids and adults responded strongly to the songs, and the creators and ABC began to see the series' potential[22:04]

Grammar Rock, discovery of Lynn Ahrens, and musical sophistication

Launch of Grammar Rock and key songs

Season two (around 1973-74) introduced Grammar Rock, including the debut of "Conjunction Junction"[23:04]
They call "Conjunction Junction" the song most people know and praise Jack Sheldon's distinctive vocal performance[24:26]
They note Sheldon also sang other favorites, and one host teases that his all-time favorite comes later in the discussion[23:50]
Listening back as adults, they highlight the song's sophisticated meter, rhyme scheme, and use of slant rhymes, unusual for kids' material[40:04]

Secretary-turned-songwriter Lynn Ahrens

Lynn Ahrens was initially a copy department secretary at the agency and was discovered playing guitar during her lunch break[26:29]
Creative director Newell heard her music, brought her into the project, and she eventually became a full-time songwriter[26:54]
Ahrens wrote about 15 songs, including "A Noun Is a Person, Place or Thing," "Interplanet Janet," "Interjections," and "A Victim of Gravity"[27:05]
They compare her career arc to the character Peggy from Mad Men, rising from secretary to creative powerhouse[26:10]

Funkiness and representation in songs like "Verb: That's What's Happening"

They single out "Verb, That's What's Happening" as one of the funkiest songs, musically akin to pop or R&B of its time[42:02]
One host references a blog post by an African-American writer who felt represented by the funky music and a black protagonist in "Verb"[41:59]
This writer noted that few cartoons at the time depicted black kids having urban adventures, so the episode felt significant[42:20]

America Rock, Science Rock, and broader cultural impact

America Rock and the U.S. Bicentennial

America Rock (also called History Rock) was tied to the 1976 U.S. Bicentennial, a major cultural event one host remembers overtaking the country[27:42]
They recall a resurgence of colonial imagery, Betsy Ross-style items, and decorative eagles from that era[28:27]
America Rock featured songs like "Mother Necessity," "The Shot Heard 'Round the World," and "No More Kings" (a favorite of one host)[28:48]
They also mention "Three Ring Government," which explained the three branches of government via a circus metaphor but was delayed until 1979 over fears of offending the government[31:07]

"I'm Just a Bill" and adult use of Schoolhouse Rock

"I'm Just a Bill" (written by Dave Frishberg and sung by Jack Sheldon) is described as a mega-hit and the most iconic Schoolhouse Rock song[31:57]
They say the song became the cultural symbol most associated with the series, possibly tied with "Conjunction Junction"[32:34]
They note that lobbyists and legislators requested copies to use for training staff on how a bill becomes a law, sometimes even just as audio cassettes[31:57]

Science Rock and teaching complex concepts

Science Rock ran around 1978-79, featuring songs such as "Interplanet Janet," "A Victim of Gravity," and "Telegraph Line"[33:59]
"Telegraph Line" is described as literally teaching the nervous system and how the body communicates with the brain[34:13]
Some Science Rock songs were reportedly shown to medical students, illustrating their accuracy and clarity[33:53]
The hosts reiterate that these were ad professionals perfectly suited to package educational content in compelling ways[43:22]

Creative process, Scooter Computer, and decline of the series

Original creative-first process vs. later executive-driven approach

Initially, writers were given a broad theme (math, grammar, etc.), composed songs they were passionate about, and pitched them to the creative team[37:39]
Lyrics were vetted for accuracy by Bank Street College before animation and storyboarding began, so creativity led the process[37:58]
In the fifth season, ABC executive Squire Rushnell commissioned computer-themed episodes on the assumption that children feared computers[38:34]
The process reversed: executives handed writers specific computer-related topics (like data processing and BASIC language) to cover[38:21]

Scooter Computer and Mr. Chips

The new season was called "Scooter Computer and Mr. Chips," featuring a boy (Scooter Computer) and a computer character (Mr. Chips)[39:22]
The hosts find the concept confusing and joke about the naming, adding that the computer was on roller skates, which they see as undignified[40:38]
They argue that unlike math, grammar, and civics, computer content dated quickly, making these episodes feel irrelevant soon after release[40:08]
Despite original creators like Dorough returning and doing their best, the season never gained traction and is largely forgotten[40:00]

Cancellation and replacement by fitness interstitials

Schoolhouse Rock stopped producing new material and was pulled from ABC's Saturday morning lineup in 1985[40:47]
ABC replaced it with "Fun Fit" interstitials featuring gymnast Mary Lou Retton, tying into the era's national fitness push[40:49]
The hosts connect this to Ronald Reagan's appointment of Arnold Schwarzenegger as a sort of fitness czar and recall presidential fitness tests in schools[41:05]

1990s revival, stage show, tribute album, and Gen X nostalgia

Late-1980s petition and 1993 TV revival with Money Rock

In the late 1980s, a University of Connecticut student started a petition to bring Schoolhouse Rock back; the hosts could not find this person's name[41:47]
ABC eventually responded, and in 1993 they began rerunning the classic episodes and commissioned new ones under the banner Money Rock[42:02]
Money Rock episodes, created by original contributors, covered topics like personal budgeting ("$7.50 Once a Week") and the national debt ("Tyrannosaurus Debt")[42:37]
They mention "The Tale of Mr. Morton" as another later song, though they don't recount its full content[44:13]

Stage adaptation: Schoolhouse Rock Live!

Around 1993, a stage show, "Schoolhouse Rock Live!," opened in a small black-box basement theater of a vegetarian restaurant in Chicago[45:01]
The production grew to an off-Broadway run and a touring version, and as of recording, a group called Theater BAM Chicago was still performing it[45:27]
One host regrets not seeing the New York run when he lived nearby, citing lack of money at the time[45:23]

Home video, Gen X nostalgia, and the tribute album "Schoolhouse Rock Rocks"

In 1997, a 25th-anniversary VHS package of Schoolhouse Rock was released[46:00]
They argue that the 1990s reissues, stage show, and related products revealed the strong nostalgia of Generation X, for which Schoolhouse Rock became a key touchstone[46:32]
They describe the 1990s tribute album "Schoolhouse Rock Rocks," featuring contemporary bands like Pavement, the Lemonheads, Ween, Moby, and Blind Melon covering classic songs[29:06]
They note most bands took fairly straight approaches, but Pavement's version of "No More Kings" is heavily personalized, with altered lyrics and added elements like laser guns[30:54]
One host praises Blind Melon's cover of "Three Is a Magic Number" and calls Blind Melon's second album "Soup" a highly underrated 1990s record[47:14]

Later tributes and parodies (Simpsons, SNL, Conspiracy Rock)

They mention Schoolhouse Rock being parodied or homaged in shows like The Simpsons and Saturday Night Live[47:30]
They highlight Robert Smigel's TV Funhouse segment "Conspiracy Rock," which used a Schoolhouse Rock style to critique media consolidation and corporate influence[47:48]
They recount that "Conspiracy Rock" aired once on SNL but was cut from reruns and DVDs, officially because Lorne Michaels didn't think it was funny, though one host doubts that's the whole story[48:32]
Another SNL skit parodied "I'm Just a Bill" to comment on modern politics[48:50]

Criticism of historical framing and questions about education

They note that while math and grammar episodes are broadly uncontroversial, some America Rock episodes have drawn criticism[49:15]
The song "Elbow Room" depicts westward expansion as white settlers needing more space and invokes Manifest Destiny as God's will, with no Native Americans shown[50:05]
The hosts connect this to how 1970s and 1980s school curricula often whitewashed U.S. history, especially regarding Native Americans[50:45]
They wonder aloud whether children today are still being misled by oversimplified narratives, asking current teachers-especially middle school history teachers-to write in[51:43]
They predict answers may vary by district and teacher but expect some progress compared to their childhood[51:51]

Hosts' personal favorite songs and emotional connection

Favorite Schoolhouse Rock songs

One host says his favorite multiplication song is "Three Is a Magic Number"[10:45]
Later, he reveals his overall favorite is "Rufus Xavier Sarsaparilla," a pronoun song sung by Jack Sheldon[52:34]
He describes listening to "Rufus Xavier Sarsaparilla" whenever he feels down, praising its intricate wordplay and fast, complex delivery[52:34]
The song's story involves characters going to the zoo, using long animal nouns that are then replaced with pronouns to demonstrate grammatical efficiency[53:18]

Emotional resonance and enduring affection

They emphasize that these songs still bring them joy decades later and can immediately transport them back to childhood[52:45]
One host says the series taught him real civics and science concepts-like how a bill becomes a law and how the nervous system works-more memorably than many classroom lessons[32:38]

Interview with Pavement's Bob Nastanovich about recording "No More Kings"

Context: failed Silver Jews session and repurposed studio time

Nastanovich explains that Pavement recorded "No More Kings" in Memphis during studio time originally booked for a Silver Jews record[55:09]
Silver Jews singer David Berman decided he didn't want to make the record and went home, leaving paid studio time unused[55:14]
To bail Berman out of the financial commitment, Pavement used the week of studio time, recording the Pacific Trim EP and "No More Kings"[55:19]
Nastanovich notes he and Steve West were later fired from Silver Jews, but calls that "beside the point" for this story[55:30]

Choosing "No More Kings" and their approach to the cover

Their friend Jackie Ferry, who was supervising the tribute compilation, offered them their choice of Schoolhouse Rock songs to cover[56:02]
Pavement chose "No More Kings" because it had been their favorite Schoolhouse Rock song as kids, especially due to its Boston Tea Party theme[56:22]
Nastanovich says they were pleased with how the track turned out and still regard the compilation as an outstanding project[56:00]
He suggests the cover has become one of the more significant things Pavement did outside their main discography[56:50]

Recording process and Steve West's role

He clarifies that "No More Kings" was recorded by three members: Stephen Malkmus, Steve West, and Nastanovich, without the other Pavement members present[56:28]
The basic instrumental track was done in one take, with only about eight minutes of vocal overdubs afterward[56:28]
Steve West played drums and provided most of the deep-voiced background ranting and raving on the track[56:54]
Nastanovich praises West's powerful speaking voice and says this was the first time Pavement really used it on a recording[56:50]
He underscores that they had to "pavementize" the song because they weren't the type of band that could or wanted to do a straight cover[1:00:56]

Jackie Ferry's background and artifacts

Nastanovich describes Jackie Ferry as a dear friend who had been an MTV VJ, later nanny to Courtney Love and Kurt Cobain's daughter, and Pavement's tour manager[57:31]
He mentions she has battled cancer for over a decade and owns Kurt Cobain's cardigan from the famous MTV Unplugged performance[57:42]
Pavement wanted to do their best on the cover primarily for Jackie, not for commercial reasons[57:31]

Personal anecdotes and reflections on musicianship

Nastanovich says his wife first heard Pavement via the "No More Kings" cover when she was about 10 and her sister bought the tribute album[57:31]
He reflects that he often found out about Pavement plans (albums, tours) last, since he lived in Louisville and spent much time at the racetrack[58:49]
He describes himself as having limited musical skills and being uncomfortable with gear-obsessed musicians who want to "jam"[59:29]
He jokes that if he accepted a jam invitation, people would doubt he had ever really been in a band after seeing his rudimentary drum playing[59:43]

Listener mail: Sam's story of skiing, loss, and rediscovering the podcast

Family memories tied to the podcast and skiing

Listener Sam writes that her dad used to play the podcast around 2009 while driving the family to go skiing, creating fond memories of laughing and "nerding out" after days on the mountain[1:08:23]
She recalls her family's favorite episodes being about cannibalism and flirting, and notes the flirting advice didn't actually work for her as a high schooler[1:09:11]

Brother's suicide, delayed grief, and healing

Sam shares that one of her brothers, an excellent skier, died by suicide about four and a half years earlier, while she was in college[1:08:33]
She says she didn't have enough time then to grieve properly and has recently been confronting painful memories she previously ignored[1:08:43]
Rediscovering the podcast unexpectedly brought back happy memories of family ski trips and listening together[1:08:51]
On a recent trip home, she went skiing with her parents for the first time since her brother's death; it was painful but also "unimaginably special"[1:09:21]
She writes that when her family is on the mountain, she can picture her brother skiing with an enormous grin, as he was when healthy and full of life[1:09:35]
Sam thanks the hosts for making a show that not only entertains but now helps her cherish special times in her life[1:09:51]

Hosts' response to Sam

The hosts describe the email as heavy but fantastic and express deep appreciation that the show could play a role in her healing[1:09:56]
They send their best wishes to Sam and her entire family and thank her for sharing such a personal story[1:10:07]

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Treating children as capable thinkers-rather than talking down to them-allows for richer, more sophisticated teaching that they can still absorb and enjoy.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your life do you currently simplify things so much for others that you might be underestimating their ability to understand?
  • • How could you adjust the way you explain complex ideas to children, students, or colleagues so that you respect their intelligence while still being clear?
  • • What is one conversation or presentation coming up where you can deliberately raise the level of nuance instead of dumbing it down?
2

Borrowing tools from advertising-catchy repetition, strong visuals, narrative hooks-can make important information dramatically more memorable and engaging.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What key idea in your work or personal life do you wish people would really remember but currently forget?
  • • How might you reframe that idea into a short story, image, or simple "hook" that sticks the way a jingle or slogan does?
  • • What is one piece of communication you'll send this week that you could redesign using a more creative, ad-like approach?
3

Creative projects flourish when creators lead the process; top-down mandates that ignore how the art actually works usually produce forgettable results.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where are you currently allowing non-creative constraints or external directives to dictate the outcome of a creative effort?
  • • How could you restructure one project so that the people closest to the work set the direction before executives or stakeholders weigh in?
  • • What small boundary can you set this month to protect creative exploration from premature interference?
4

Nostalgic artifacts-songs, shows, places-can be powerful anchors for processing grief and reconnecting with earlier, healthier versions of ourselves and loved ones.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which songs, shows, or routines from your past instantly transport you back to a meaningful time or relationship?
  • • In what ways could you consciously revisit one of those anchors to support yourself through a difficult emotion or transition you're facing now?
  • • Who could you invite into a shared nostalgic activity this week (a walk, a movie, a playlist) to strengthen a relationship that matters to you?
5

Saying yes to unexpected side projects-even small, low-stakes ones-can create lasting work and stories that become surprisingly important parts of your life and career.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What opportunity or side project have you recently dismissed because it seemed minor or outside your main path?
  • • How might approaching one such opportunity with curiosity (instead of skepticism) open up new skills, relationships, or visibility for you?
  • • What is one modest, interesting project you could commit to starting in the next month purely for the experience and the story it might create?

Episode Summary - Notes by Kai

Selects: How Schoolhouse Rock Rocked: Featuring Bob Nastanovich of Pavement
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