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Revisionist History

The Alabama Murders - Part 4: The Protocol

with Tom Perry Jr., Deborah Denno, Joel Zivitt

Published October 16, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

Malcolm Gladwell continues the story of John Forrest Parker, focusing on Parker's decades on Alabama's death row, his relationship with prison minister Tom Perry Jr., and the events of his 2010 execution. The episode then traces the improvised origins of the lethal injection protocol and presents medical evidence from autopsies suggesting that executions by lethal injection likely cause agonizing internal injury while appearing peaceful. Gladwell frames the narrative with James Keenan's idea that sin is the failure to bother to care, contrasting Perry's steadfast care with the broader indifference to how executions actually work.

Topics Covered

Death penalty and executions Lethal injection procedures Prison system Trauma Religion and spirituality Morality and ethics Forensic investigation Criminal justice reform

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • Prison minister Tom Perry Jr. spent 23 years visiting death row inmates in Alabama, ultimately being present at 12 or 13 executions, including that of John Forrest Parker.
  • Although Parker maintained he did not personally kill Elizabeth Stennett, he repeatedly acknowledged his involvement and his culpability for the crime.
  • Alabama law once allowed judges to override jury recommendations for life without parole, which is how Parker was sentenced to death despite a 10-2 jury vote for life.
  • The modern three-drug lethal injection protocol was devised quickly in Oklahoma in the 1970s, without testing and with little understanding of its physiological effects.
  • Autopsies from executions reveal lungs heavy with bloody, frothy fluid, which anesthesiologist Joel Zivitt interprets as evidence that pentobarbital burns and destroys lung tissue during lethal injection.
  • Lethal injection may appear peaceful to witnesses because the condemned is sedated and paralyzed, even as they possibly endure severe internal pain.
  • Pathologists had been recording signs of pulmonary edema in executed prisoners for years, but no one publicly questioned what that meant for the humanity of lethal injection.
  • Gladwell uses the case to illustrate James Keenan's idea that sin can be a failure to bother to care, highlighting systemic indifference to the realities of state executions.

Podcast Notes

Recap of prior episodes and introduction of the focus on John Forrest Parker after sentencing

Brief recap of community perceptions of the crime and trial outcome

Locals had a fixed idea of what happened and were hard to persuade otherwise[2:35]
• A speaker notes that once people get something in their mind, it is difficult to change it
Suspicion around the preacher and timing if he had committed the murder[3:00]
• Someone observes that if Reverend Stennett had done it, the timing would make more sense because he could have arrived after others left
Objection to judge overriding jury verdicts[3:17]
• A voice argues that there is no point in having a jury if a judge can overturn its decision

Introduction of Tom Perry Jr. and his role in ministering to death row inmates

Who Tom Perry Jr. is and how he came to be involved with John Forrest Parker

Description of Tom Perry Jr.[3:47]
• Gladwell describes Perry as a big guy with a beard from Demopolis, Alabama, who spent the third Saturday of every month for years at Donaldson Prison's death row
Reason Gladwell contacts Perry[4:07]
• Parker's lawyer told Gladwell that to understand more about Parker, he should talk to Tom Perry

Perry's self-description and religious background

Perry's humility about his role[4:07]
• Perry insists he is not a do-gooder but an old guy who falls short every day, saying the Lord uses him in prison because of his shortcomings
Denominational banter[4:27]
• Gladwell notes many interviewees are Church of Christ, and Perry clarifies he is Methodist and jokes that maybe he likes cocktails too much for Church of Christ

Framing of the episode and moral theme

Gladwell states what this episode will cover

Focus on Parker's post-sentencing life and James Keenan's concept of sin[5:02]
• Gladwell will tell the story of what happened to Parker after he was sentenced to death and reflect on Jesuit James Keenan's phrase that sin is the failure to bother to care
Contrast between caring and indifference[5:14]
• He frames the story as one about someone who bothered to care and someone else who could not be bothered at all

Identification of series and episode

Gladwell names the series and episode[5:21]
• He says his name is Malcolm Gladwell and identifies the episode as The Alabama Murders, Episode 4, The Protocol

Perry's experience with executions and commitment to accompany inmates

Number of executions Perry has attended

Perry's count of executions[5:50]
• He estimates he has been with 12 or 13 men who were executed, and in 10 or 11 cases he was praying with their families at the time of death

How Perry came into death row ministry and the expectation to "go all the way"

Mentor Ben Sherrod's warning[5:54]
• Perry recounts that his mentor, Big Ben Sherrod, told him that if he came back and inmates asked him to go all the way with them, he had to be willing to go, especially to be present at executions if asked
Understanding "all the way"[6:06]
• Sherrod explained that some inmates do not want their families to be the only ones watching them die, so volunteers must be ready to be with them; if Perry could not do that, Sherrod advised him not to return
Perry's initial agreement and later realization[5:50]
• At the time there had not been an execution in Alabama for a long time, so Perry agreed without fully understanding what he was committing to

Emotional and spiritual toll of witnessing executions

Need for strength during executions[7:12]
• Perry says that during executions God gives him the power to endure, but afterward he usually needs someone to drive him home
Impact of losing many men[7:12]
• He repeats that losing 13 men is so hard one would not believe it, and it affects him deeply

Perry's relationship with John Forrest Parker

Parker as one of the most significant inmates to Perry[8:24]
• Perry says he loved John Parker, misses him, and that thinking about him 15 years later still makes him miss Parker more

Legal outcome of Parker's trial and his life on death row

Judge override of the jury's recommendation

Jury recommendation vs. judge's sentence[7:57]
• The jury voted 10-2 for life without parole, but Judge Inga Johnson overrode the recommendation and sentenced Parker to death in 1989 under Alabama law that allowed such overrides

Donaldson Prison death row and early visits

Description of death row and Perry's travel[8:02]
• Parker was placed on death row at Donaldson Prison, which had 24 cells in two blocks of 12, and Perry regularly made the two-hour drive from Demopolis to visit with his friend Ben Sherrod and others
Parker's reluctance to leave his cell initially[9:01]
• At first Parker would not come out of his cell except when visitors brought good food, and even then he went back at the first opportunity
Reason for Parker's distrust of religious visitors[8:58]
• Perry later learned that since Reverend Stennett had hired Parker and the others, Parker equated preachers and religion with Stennett and wanted nothing to do with them

Intervention by Parker's mother and change in behavior

Mother's instruction that Parker must come out[8:58]
• After Perry told Parker's mother that he would not leave his cell, she told Perry to tell John that his mother said he better come out; from the next month on, Parker never missed a visit
Development of close friendship[9:30]
• Perry and Parker became very good friends, and Parker confided a lot in Perry

Parker's character and personal change in prison

Perry's description of Parker[8:58]
• Perry describes Parker as very intelligent, well read, a wonderful person and the kind of guy you would want to hang out with
Parker's self-improvement while incarcerated[8:58]
• Parker told Perry that since coming to prison he had learned to read, write, and do things better, and he was sober and off drugs for the first time since age 12

Parker's reflections on his crime and responsibility

Struggle over his last words[10:18]
• Parker wrestled with what to say in his last words, repeatedly telling Perry that he did not kill Elizabeth Stennett but that he was involved in a horrible act
Admission of involvement and sense of punishment[10:27]
• He told Perry he had probably not been in prison long enough for what he did, even as he maintained that he was not the one who killed her
Moment of realization during the attack[10:48]
• Parker recalled hitting Stennett and feeling as if a light bulb went off, asking himself what he was doing, and said the participants were later told that Reverend Stennett came home and killed her

Nature of Perry's ministry and long-term commitment

Ministry as explicit Christian work and presence

Centrality of ministry of presence[11:25]
• Perry says bringing the message of Jesus was central, but he quickly realized their most important ministry was simply their presence and showing up whenever the prison allowed visits
Frequency and structure of visits[12:23]
• On the third Saturday of each month they visited for two or three hours, and twice a year they held a three-day weekend visiting Thursday night, all day Friday and Saturday, and Sunday

Effect on Perry's family and personal life

Spousal support despite young children[12:14]
• Perry consulted his wife, who, despite their having young children, told him the ministry made him a better person, father, and husband and encouraged him to continue

Timeline leading up to Parker's execution

Years of appeals and setting of execution date[12:29]
• The visits continued for 23 years as Parker's appeals proceeded until his execution was scheduled for 6 p.m. on June 10, 2010
Transfer to Holman Prison and last appeals[12:35]
• Parker was moved to Holman Prison near Mobile, placed in a special holding cell, and filed two last appeals in his final week to the Alabama Supreme Court and then the U.S. Supreme Court, both of which failed
Final meal, possessions, and time of death[12:51]
• He skipped breakfast, chose fried fish, French fries, and iced tea for dinner, gave personal items to his mother and nephews, and died by lethal injection at 6:41 p.m., with Tom Perry present
Perry's impression that Parker did not appear to suffer[13:50]
• Perry states that Parker did not appear to suffer during the execution

Origins and design of the lethal injection protocol

Context after Supreme Court moratorium on capital punishment

Shift away from older execution methods[17:59]
• After a moratorium on capital punishment, the Supreme Court required more socially acceptable and legally rigorous methods, as existing ones like the electric chair looked like horror movies and raised concerns about cruel and unusual punishment
States concerned about journalistic scrutiny[18:34]
• Deborah Denno explains that journalists were threatening to litigate for access to executions, and states like Oklahoma and Texas were worried about executions being videotaped and shown to the world

Influence of Ronald Reagan and search for a humane method

Reagan's comparison to euthanizing horses[19:07]
• Denno recalls that then-Governor Ronald Reagan asked why inmates could not be executed the way horses are put down by a vet, with a shot that puts them to sleep
Pressure to create a method that looked humane[19:26]
• Denno says there was pressure to develop a method that appeared more humane than electrocution or lethal gas and to manage how executions were perceived by the world

Bill Wiseman and A. J. Chapman devise lethal injection

Chapman's initial two-drug idea and later three-drug protocol[20:19]
• Medical examiner A. J. Chapman proposed to state senator Bill Wiseman a sequence of drugs: first a barbiturate sedative to put the prisoner to sleep, then a paralytic, later adding potassium chloride to cause fatal hyperkalemia
Legislative adoption and public framing[20:34]
• Wiseman brought the idea to the Oklahoma legislature where it passed overwhelmingly, and a university newspaper editorial argued lethal injection would spare witnesses from seeing gruesome effects like roasting flesh or bulging eyes
Lack of testing and Chapman's later justification[21:12]
• Gladwell notes the protocol was never tested because any experiment would kill subjects, and Chapman later wrote that precise understanding was unnecessary because the drugs' properties were well known and similar to anesthesia protocols

Critical distinction between medical anesthesia and lethal injection

Different intentions of anesthesia vs. execution[21:45]
• Gladwell emphasizes that in medicine anesthesia aims to keep the patient alive, whereas lethal injection uses massive doses of similar drugs explicitly to cause death, making it a fundamentally different procedure
Speed and informality of protocol creation[22:32]
• Denno states the protocol was developed in the course of an afternoon, and Chapman declined Gladwell's request for an interview

Spread of the Oklahoma Protocol

Adoption by many states and influence on euthanasia[22:36]
• The Oklahoma Protocol became the preferred method in 30 U.S. states and, with minor variation, is also used in countries such as Canada for euthanasia

Autopsy evidence and medical analysis of how lethal injection kills

Introduction of anesthesiologist Joel Zivitt and his task

Autopsies of executed prisoners in Georgia[23:51]
• Zivitt received a stack of autopsies from Georgia executions, where an automatic autopsy is performed and the cause of death is listed as homicide
Lawyers' question about prisoner consciousness[23:28]
• Lawyers asked Zivitt to assess from lab results whether executed prisoners were conscious at the time of death, based on the assumption that lethal injection rendered them fully anesthetized

Discovery of heavy lungs and pulmonary edema

Unexpected autopsy finding[24:07]
• Reviewing the first autopsy, Zivitt noticed that the lungs were documented as heavy, which meant they contained bloody, frothy fluid, and he found this in about 80 percent of cases
Significance of fluid appearing before death[23:54]
• He explains that such fluid could not have entered the lungs after death because the heart no longer pumps, so the edema had to occur while the prisoner was alive
Contradiction with prior assumptions of a pristine body[25:08]
• Zivitt had assumed the organs would be relatively undamaged, but the widespread pulmonary edema suggested substantial internal destruction from the execution process

Chemical properties of pentobarbital and pH explanation

Basic explanation of the pH scale and body limits[25:08]
• Gladwell explains that the pH scale is logarithmic, body pH normally ranges from 7.35 to 7.45, and values below 7 or above 8 are typically fatal
Pentobarbital's high pH and dosage in executions[26:49]
• Pentobarbital has a pH between 9 and 11; in medical use small doses may cause some burning but the body compensates, while executions use roughly ten times the usual amount pushed into a small vein

Hypothesized mechanism: chemical burning and tearing of lungs

Path of the drug from vein to lungs[27:08]
• Zivitt suggests the large bolus of pentobarbital travels quickly to the heart and is pumped into the lungs, where its high pH burns and tears delicate tissue at the interface between blood and air
Formation of pulmonary edema and internal suffocation[27:18]
• The destruction of tissue allows blood to pour into the lungs, filling them with bloody, frothy fluid, leading to the pulmonary edema observed at autopsy
Conclusion about how lethal injection likely kills[27:37]
• Zivitt concludes that lethal injection effectively kills by burning the lungs from the inside, with the condemned person paralyzed and unable to express the resulting agony until potassium chloride finally stops the heart

Ethical implications, indifference, and difficulty publishing the findings

Illusion of humaneness and focus on appearances

Humane image for witnesses vs. experience of the condemned[28:30]
• Gladwell argues that lethal injection satisfies concerns about cruel punishment for witnesses by looking peaceful, but actually inflicts intense suffering on the person being executed

Availability of autopsy evidence and lack of curiosity

Autopsy data sitting unused[29:28]
• He notes that many states have long performed autopsies on executed prisoners, with repeated findings of heavy lungs, but no one had analyzed what this meant for the method's humaneness until Zivitt
Zivitt's surprise that no one remarked on it[29:31]
• Asked if it is astonishing that no one noticed this before, Zivitt says it may be, but emphasizes that one must be curious or care; he observes that pathologists routinely recorded the edema without highlighting its implications

Confirmation by pathologist Mark Edgar

Independent reading of the autopsies[30:24]
• To confirm his interpretation, Zivitt sent the autopsies without context to pathologist Mark Edgar, who immediately noted the heavy lungs and pulmonary edema and asked what the cases were

Resistance to publishing the findings and notion of indifference

Belief vs. evidence in views of lethal injection[30:56]
• Zivitt says that belief is evidence-free and that advocates of lethal injection seemed immune to impartial appraisal of evidence
Trouble placing the article in medical journals[31:33]
• Zivitt reports difficulty publishing his article on these findings because editors did not want to run it, so it exists as a preprint rather than in a traditional medical journal
Gladwell's characterization of this as the second stage of a failure cascade[32:08]
• Gladwell labels this pattern of ignoring available evidence about lethal injection as indifference, a stage in a larger failure cascade

Retelling Parker's execution day with procedural and emotional detail

Visiting arrangements and efforts to improve conditions

Gathering with Parker's family in the visitation room[35:03]
• On execution day, Perry and others arrived early; they visited with Parker and his family in a small room with a limit of about 15 people, talking and getting to know relatives they had not met before
Upgrading the room with chairs and air conditioning[35:19]
• Perry explains that his Christian community installed air conditioning and new chairs in the previously uncomfortable visiting room so inmates could have more comfort during visits
Restrictions on singing and small privileges[35:44]
• They sing a little during the day until told they are too loud, and Parker and others are allowed soft drinks or anything similar they want within rules

Perry's praise for the execution team officers

Officers trying to maintain dignity for the condemned[36:00]
• Perry says the officers carrying out executions at Atmore do everything within reason to make the last day as dignified and good as they can for the inmate, though they rarely get credit

Final prayers, hymn, and move to the execution chamber

Circling up for prayer and singing "Surely the Presence"[36:50]
• As time approaches, they pray seriously, form a circle as is their custom, and sing the hymn "Surely the Presence of the Lord Is in This Place" together
Layout of viewing area and separation of families[37:17]
• In the execution chamber viewing area, the Stennett family is on one side, Parker's supporters on the other, and Parker is visible in the middle through glass; they can see but not hear each other

Parker's final words to Perry and to the Stennett family

Expressions of love and requests to Perry[37:36]
• Parker looks up and tells Perry he loves him, thanks him for everything, and asks him to take care of his parents; Perry promises to stay in touch with them
Apology to the victim's family and context[37:48]
• Parker tells the Stennett family he is sorry he got involved, wishes he could take it back a hundred times, says he was young, strung out, and stupid, and hopes his execution brings them some peace
Final hand gesture of love[38:26]
• As the injection begins, Parker rolls his hands up and makes their agreed-upon gesture meaning "I love you," which they used after physical contact was no longer allowed

Perry's observation of the physical process and duration

Visible reaction on Parker's jaw[39:19]
• Perry recalls seeing Parker's bottom jaw start to quiver as the execution progressed and remarks that it took longer than one might expect

Official Alabama lethal injection protocol overlaid on Parker's death

Sequence and amounts of drugs administered[39:34]
• Gladwell details that Alabama regulations provide for 100 milliliters of sedative, followed by a team member pinching the inmate to check response, then 60 milliliters of the muscle relaxant rocuronium bromide, and finally 120 milliliters of potassium chloride to stop the heart
Appearance of peacefulness vs. internal suffering[39:56]
• Gladwell contrasts Perry's statement that Parker did not appear to suffer with the medical evidence that Parker's lungs were likely burning internally while he was sedated and paralyzed and unable to cry out

Emotional aftermath for Perry and Parker's family

Family breakdown and Perry's own collapse after[40:19]
• After Parker is pronounced dead, his parents break down and hug Perry, who later needs a friend to take care of him as he himself breaks down
Mixture of hardship and glimpses of goodness[40:32]
• Perry calls it a hard day but says that up until the execution, from Parker's perspective, it is in many ways a joyous day because he sees goodness everywhere among those gathered

Photograph, memory, and plea to protect Parker's legacy

Family photograph taken on execution day

Description of the framed picture[41:23]
• Perry shows Gladwell a framed photo taken by the institution on the day of Parker's execution, showing Perry, Parker's father Petey, mother Joan, brother Burke, and John in the middle
Placement of the photo next to Perry's license[42:07]
• He keeps the picture right by his license in his office, tucked into the frame, and cherishes it because only a few copies were given to the family

Perry's insistence on protecting Parker's memory

Request not to defame Parker[42:46]
• Perry tells Gladwell he is trusting him not to degrade or insult Parker's memory and says he would be heartbroken if anything defamatory were produced
Reliance on recommendation from Tom Heflin[43:08]
• He states that he agreed to speak only because Tom Heflin said Gladwell was okay and reiterates his trust that the story will honor John

Closing reflections on caring, the death penalty, and foreshadowing worse to come

Gladwell's contrast between Perry's care and systemic indifference

Tom Perry as the one who bothered to care[43:37]
• Gladwell explicitly calls Tom Perry the person who bothered to care in this story
Critique of the symbolic claims of the death penalty[43:51]
• He explains that death penalty supporters like to see executions as a symbolic manifestation of society's judgment, but in reality the method is an improvised protocol designed in an afternoon and never properly examined
Statement on what symbolic manifestations should require[44:36]
• Gladwell argues that symbolic manifestations of society's judgment should not be created on the back of an envelope

Teaser for next episode and indication that the story worsens

Warning that the denouement of the case will get worse[45:13]
• He says that the long denouement of the Elizabeth Stennett case is about to get much worse
Preview of upcoming episode focusing on Kenny Smith[45:06]
• A teaser includes references to Kenny Smith's execution chamber, media coverage of what happened there, and debates about the death penalty, setting up the next episode

Credits and production information for the episode

Production team and fact-checking

Producers, editor, and fact-checker[44:16]
• Gladwell credits Lucy Sullivan, Ben Nadaf-Haffrey, and Nina Berman Lawrence as producers; Ben Nadaf-Haffrey and Lee Hedgepeth for additional reporting; Karen Shakerdge as editor; and Kate Furby for fact-checking

Executive production, engineering, and music

Executive producer and audio team[44:22]
• He names Jacob Smith as executive producer, Nina Berman Lawrence for engineering, Luis Guerra with Paul Brainerd and Jimmy Boud for original scoring, and Jake Gorski for sound design and additional music

Subscription information

Ad-free access via Pushkin Plus[45:06]
• Gladwell tells listeners they can get the entire season ad free by subscribing to Revisionist History on Pushkin Plus via Apple Podcasts or the Pushkin website, with access to ad-free episodes, audiobooks, and bonus content

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Consistent presence can be more powerful than words when supporting people in extreme circumstances, as simply showing up over years builds trust, comfort, and the space for honest reflection.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your life could simply showing up regularly for someone make a meaningful difference, even if you are unsure what to say?
  • • How might committing to a steady routine of presence change a difficult relationship or situation you are currently facing?
  • • What is one concrete way you can structure your schedule this month to be more consistently present for a person or community that matters to you?
2

Systems and protocols that affect life and death must be interrogated with curiosity and rigor, not accepted on faith because they appear efficient or humane from the outside.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What high-stakes processes in your work or community do you take for granted without really understanding how they function?
  • • How could you build a habit of asking deeper questions about the design and real-world effects of the systems you rely on every day?
  • • What is one specific procedure or norm you interact with that you could research or audit more critically over the next week?
3

Indifference to available evidence allows harmful practices to persist; noticing and acting on uncomfortable data is a core responsibility in any role that affects others.

Reflection Questions:

  • • When have you seen clear evidence of a problem ignored simply because it was inconvenient or unsettling?
  • • How might you better train yourself to pay attention to "small" anomalies or patterns that could signal deeper issues in your organization or relationships?
  • • What is one piece of troubling information you have been avoiding that you could confront and act on in the coming days?
4

Symbolic decisions that claim to represent society's values demand especially careful design and oversight, because shortcuts or improvised solutions can undermine the very values they are meant to express.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which policies, rituals, or decisions in your environment are treated as symbolic of your group's values, and how carefully were they actually designed?
  • • How could you introduce more reflection and scrutiny into the way your team or community creates practices that are meant to represent its core principles?
  • • What is one symbolic act or policy you could revisit to ensure it genuinely aligns with the values it is supposed to embody?
5

Choosing to care about people who are marginalized, condemned, or easy to ignore challenges collective complacency and can humanize systems that otherwise operate on autopilot.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Who in your world is most likely to be overlooked or written off, and what would it look like to genuinely engage with them?
  • • In what ways might your own routines or assumptions be contributing to the invisibility of certain people or groups around you?
  • • What concrete step can you take this week to extend attention, empathy, or practical support to someone your environment tends to neglect?

Episode Summary - Notes by Reese

The Alabama Murders - Part 4: The Protocol
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