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Radiolab

Quantum Refuge

with Qasem Walid

Published November 14, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

Radiolab host Lulu speaks with 28-year-old Gazan physicist Qasem Walid about how quantum physics has become both a language and an inner refuge for him while living through war, displacement, and loss in Gaza. Over months of conversations, he describes daily life under bombardment, the deaths of his professor and relatives, and his experience of feeling like Schrödinger's cat-trapped in a box where his survival is uncertain and unseen by the outside world. He uses concepts like superposition, quantum tunneling, and harmonic oscillators to make sense of his own existence and to plead for the world to "open the box" and truly look at what is happening in Gaza.

Topics Covered

Israel-Palestine conflict Mathematics and physics Science communication Trauma Personal narrative Philosophy of mind War and empire Consciousness Mental health Resilience

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • Physicist Qasem Walid uses quantum mechanics concepts like superposition and tunneling as metaphors to describe his lived experience of war, siege, and displacement in Gaza.
  • His fascination with physics began as a teenager stargazing on a polluted Gazan rooftop and was nurtured by his poetic engineer father and an elegant quantum mechanics professor, Dr. Sufjan Taya.
  • The destruction of his university, the killing of his professor and aunt, and life in a tent camp pushed him to start writing public essays that mix raw descriptions of genocide with quantum analogies.
  • He describes his current existence as akin to Schrödinger's cat: trapped in a box where he is simultaneously alive and dead in the eyes of a distant world that refuses to "open the box" and look.
  • Quantum physics becomes for him both a coping mechanism and a "safe zone" in his mind, a place he can escape to when his physical world is reduced to rubble and constant mortal risk.
  • Over the course of months, he feels himself shift from aspiring scientist studying reality to an object of study, asking outsiders to investigate and act on the reality of Gaza.
  • He frames everyday acts like fetching water or food as movements between energy states, likening his steps through sand and tents to electrons climbing the ladder operators of a quantum harmonic oscillator.
  • Despite the horror, he still imagines a future studying astrophysics abroad and visiting places like NASA and SpaceX, even as each day in Gaza feels like walking with a gun pressed to the back of his head.

Podcast Notes

Framing the Conversation: Reality, Many Worlds, and Gaza

Opening question about the many-worlds interpretation

Host asks where the guest stands on the many-worlds interpretation and parallel universes[2:09]
• The host notes that the episode will be about reality and different realities, setting up the relevance of many-worlds
Qasem's emotional attraction but scientific skepticism toward many worlds[2:11]
• He says the idea of another peaceful world, away from the madness and horror of Gaza, with another version of him living a normal life, is very intriguing
• Scientifically, he says he does not actually believe in the many-worlds interpretation

Introduction of the guest and the context of Gaza

Basic introduction of Qasem[2:46]
• He is introduced as "This is Qasem Walid, a 28-year-old physicist who has lived his whole life in Gaza"
Living through bombing, loss, and war[2:36]
• Over the last couple of years, Israel has dropped bombs all around him and he has lost friends and family
Using quantum physics to show the world what is happening[3:13]
• Like many Palestinians, he has been posting videos and essays to show the world what is going on
• Unlike many others, he has been doing it using quantum physics as a framework and language

Host's long-term conversations with Qasem

Timeline of their talks[3:19]
• The host says they talked many times over five months
• During that period, more and more groups, including the UN, were involved in debates about genocide and Gaza, and ceasefires were called and then broken
Arc of the episode[3:44]
• Qasem tells the tale of how quantum physics entered his life
• He describes how quantum physics helped him survive unthinkable chaos
• He also recounts how that chaos granted him access to perceive the confusing quantum state at the bottom of our physical world
Host sets up promise that Qasem will make quantum ideas make sense[3:59]
• The host acknowledges the explanation might not yet make sense to listeners but says it will when Qasem explains it

Snapshot of Daily Life in War-Time Gaza

Setting: July conversation in Gaza

Date, time, and place[4:31]
• They speak on July 29th, a Tuesday, at 6:16 p.m. Gaza time
• He lives in Khan Yunis in the south of the Gaza Strip
• At the moment of the call, he is in a cafe in the al-Mawasi area
• He notes that only a few people are inside the cafe, but outside there would be "a zillion people" because it is right next to a tent camp

Food scarcity and danger while seeking flour

Recent struggle to find flour[4:57]
• He recently had to cancel a previous call after spending three days looking for flour and finding nothing
• Four or three days before this conversation, he went to the Morag area but could not get anything because of the massive crowds
Being shot at while trying to get food[5:11]
• He says there were so many people that it was packed, and they were being shot at
• He describes taking shelter as just lying on the ground because it is open land with no real shelter
• He grimly notes that "the only shelter you can take is the guy in front of you"
• He says they eventually got some help from relatives and friends, obtaining flour that has allowed them to survive the last two or three days

Constant sound and presence of warplanes

War plane overhead during interview[5:41]
• A loud sound prompts the host to ask if it is a plane, and he confirms it is a war plane, likely an F-16
• He says they hear such planes on a daily basis
• He explains they can no longer easily distinguish which type of bomb will hit the ground-whether from a drone, quadcopter, or another platform

Risk of talking and lack of alternatives

Is doing the interview dangerous?[5:57]
• Asked if speaking from the cafe makes him less safe, he replies that living in Gaza is a risk everywhere
• He says that whenever he leaves his tent or enters any place, he prays for his own safety, his family's safety, and everyone's safety
• He recalls that just a couple of days earlier, the college right behind him, about 30 or 40 meters away, was bombed
Internet access necessitates risky trips to cafes[6:35]
• He explains he does not have internet access in his tent and so must go to cafes for connectivity, even though the internet there is not very good
• He notes he has no other choice, implying that seeking connection to the outside world requires physical risk

Origins: A Childhood Under the Stars and a Poetic Father

First fascinations with the night sky

Gazing at stars in polluted Gaza skies[6:53]
• He says his intrigue with physics began with the stars
• As a child, he spent a lot of time on the rooftop looking at the stars and night sky
• He notes Gaza is not an ideal place to observe the sky due to more than 90% air pollution from population density and bombings
A specific rainy night that changed him[7:23]
• At age 14 in eighth grade, after a heavy rain around midnight, he went to the rooftop to look at the stars
• He describes the scene as "absolutely magnificent" and says he still remembers it
• He compares the stars to pearls and says it felt like an angel had swept the sky, making it look "full HD"
• The first thing his eyes landed on was three dots later identified as the Orion Belt
Wondering what stars are and how they communicate[8:20]
• He wondered what stars were made of and why they pulsed
• He speculated that the pulsing might be a kind of language, like Morse code

His father: a generous engineer with a poetic streak

Father's role and work[8:59]
• His father was a genius engineer and managed the engineering unit of the Palestine Broadcasting Channel
• His father gave free lectures in mathematics and physics to neighbors and relatives
Young Qasem listening to his father's lectures[9:13]
• Qasem occasionally sat in on these lectures out of curiosity, even though he insists he was not a geek
• He describes the lectures as beautiful and says his father would romanticize engineering and physics
• The father would, for example, compare electric current to love between spouses
Father as would-be poet and risk of political writing[10:11]
• Qasem thinks his dad wanted to be a poet, but being a poet or writer was not seen as plausible in their context
• His mother's uncle wrote poems insulting the Israeli occupation and was jailed for months
• He suggests his father did not want to risk jail, so he wrote diaries and kept them private instead of publishing

Father's death and influence on Qasem's choice of physics

Loss of his father[10:35]
• His father died in 2016 when Qasem was 19 years old
Father's unrealized wish to study physics[11:35]
• He imagines in another universe his father might still be alive and he could still be learning from him
• He recalls his father telling him many times that if he could choose a field to major in, he would choose physics
• Although his father was a brilliant engineer, he was deeply interested in physics and inspired Qasem to continue in that field
Not being his father's "second chance"[11:15]
• Asked if he saw studying physics as honoring his father, he says his father would not want him to be his "second chance"
• His father was strict about the idea that each person has their own story, and Qasem is his own story
• His father had his own story of hardship and lifting his family out of poverty and wanted Qasem to decide what he wanted

University Life and First Encounter with Quantum Mechanics

Studying physics at the Islamic University of Gaza

Campus as a place of beauty and relative freedom[11:43]
• He studied physics at the Islamic University of Gaza
• He calls it the most beautiful place in Gaza, almost like a painting
• The campus was covered with big trees, which he clearly cherished
• His favorite place was the library, which had a panoramic window overlooking various parts of campus
• From the library, he could see students interacting, professors and students circling each other, and lectures happening outdoors under trees
• He says it was the perfect scene and place for a besieged student trapped in Gaza to feel a sense of freedom

Meeting Dr. Sufjan Taya and entering the quantum realm

Dr. Taya's status and appearance[13:03]
• In his junior year, he met Dr. Sufjan Taya, a renowned physics professor and president of the university
• He describes Taya as "a catch" and the most elegant person he had ever seen
• Taya's suits were always tidy and clean, and his hair was flipped back with silver coloring all around
• He notes they did not usually have professors like this in Gaza, who typically just wore shirts, pants, and some sort of shoes
• He likens Taya to an old book that smells nice, referencing the unique smell of old books
Introduction to quantum mechanics in Taya's class[14:14]
• Taya opened the door for him to the quantum realm
• The host briefly explains that at the quantum level, particles that build everything are in a maddening, shifty state called superposition
• In superposition, particles are not in any one concrete place, nor clearly in multiple places, but also definitely not nowhere
• The host emphasizes how messed up this is and notes that particles remain in superposition only when you are not looking at them
• As soon as you measure or observe a particle, it collapses out of superposition into one outcome or the other
Richard Feynman and the difficulty of understanding quantum mechanics[15:17]
• Qasem cites Richard Feynman as, in his perspective, the most brilliant physicist ever and "the goat of physics"
• He notes that Feynman himself was so puzzled by quantum mechanics that he said if you think you understand it, you don't really understand it
• The point, as he describes, is not to understand quantum mechanics intuitively but to accept it because the math and experiments show it is real
Wild effects of quantum physics: proton collisions and photon emergence[16:09]
• He recalls an experiment Taya told them about, where physicists collide two protons near the speed of light
• From the debris of this collision, two photons emerged, which he describes as super weird
• He compares it to crashing two cars and having a bicycle come out, emphasizing its bizarre nature
Taya as a subtle, poetic teacher who linked physics to life[16:26]
• He says Taya was subtle and poetic and could "projectize" physics concepts into life
• This style of teaching hooked Qasem deeply on quantum mechanics

Quantum tunneling as a metaphor for escaping siege

Explaining quantum tunneling[16:50]
• He cites quantum tunneling as the single concept that most grabbed him
• He describes quantum tunneling as a real effect where electrons can pass through a barrier they seemingly should not be able to, almost like teleportation
Reframing tunneling for besieged life in Gaza[17:14]
• He says Taya tried to establish that Gazans could make their own version of tunneling
• He notes that as besieged civilians, they cannot break through the physical borders Israel has set
• Since they are made of subatomic particles, they were invited to imagine themselves as electrons that can tunnel to the moon
• He clarifies this tunneling is emotional and spiritual, not literal
• He suggests that looking up to the sky and stars is one beautiful thing available to them for free in Gaza, where nothing else is free

Dreams of Astrophysics and the Shattering of Possibility

Imagining a future as a physicist abroad

Scholarship dreams and preferred destinations[19:13]
• Asked what he wanted to find out and what life as a physicist could look like, he says he imagined getting a scholarship
• Likely destinations he names include France, the UK, or the US
• He says he is more into astrophysics
Longing to visit NASA and SpaceX[18:54]
• He would like to visit the United States
• He specifically mentions wanting to visit NASA and SpaceX to see rockets like the Falcon
• He wants to experience rockets with his naked eye, not merely through screens
• He says he imagines himself in that life, indicating vivid daydreaming of such a future

Abrupt interruption due to generators and power issues

Practical constraints on conversation[20:25]
• As he begins to answer when he knew those possibilities were changing, the generator restarts noisily
• He worries she cannot hear him and notes his phone battery is at 22%
• They decide to pause and continue the conversation the next day if possible, balancing safety and connectivity

October 7, 2023 and the Descent into Unprecedented War

First moments of October 7 in Gaza

Mistaking rocket sounds for thunder[24:12]
• He recalls shortly after sunrise on October 7, 2023, he initially thought the sounds he heard were thunder
• He notes that in autumn Gaza sometimes gets thunder and drizzles, making his confusion plausible
Seeing rockets launched from every area of Gaza[24:25]
• When he went outside, he saw countless rockets being launched
• He describes stripes of smoke left behind by rockets in every single area of Gaza

Hamas attack and massive Israeli response

Summary of casualties[24:45]
• The host identifies this as the Hamas attack that killed over a thousand Israelis
• Within hours, Israel began its counterattack, which by the time of recording had killed over 69,000 Palestinians
Sense that something unprecedented was beginning[24:55]
• He says that from October 7 every Gazan knew something unprecedented was coming
• He believes that what followed was something neither they nor their ancestors had ever experienced

Destruction of the university and armored incursion

University turned into a nebula of rubble[25:07]
• Days later, Israeli jets flew toward his university
• He describes seeing a "nebula of rubble, ash and dust" thickly covering the whole campus
Bombshells falling nearby and mother's bravery[25:57]
• Two months after the initial attack, Israeli tanks pushed into his neighborhood
• He recalls being in the middle of the street when bombshells started to fall on their heads
• He describes the resonance and high-pitched sound of the shells still bouncing between the "walls of my skull"
• He says the nearest bomb fell 20 or 30 meters away, and he froze, waiting for his fate
• His mother, whom he calls braver than he is, grabbed him by the back of his chair and aggressively pulled him toward a wall
• He attributes her reaction to maternal instinct and says everything happened very fast

Mass displacement and life in tents

Following crowds south toward Rafah[26:22]
• When they saw people going south, his family followed the crowd toward Rafah in southern Gaza
• He says it took more than three hours on foot to reach a point where people were simply sitting on the ground, not knowing what to do
People moving like drunk pendulums[26:22]
• He recalls people walking like drunks, swaying and staggering because they did not know where to go
• He likens their movement to a pendulum, saying they swayed because they lacked energy and direction
• People did not know where the road would end or where their feet would land
Building tents and entering a new world[27:33]
• He and his brother carried a mattress between them and others carried clothes and luggage
• He had never built a tent before, so he had to learn as people began constructing makeshift tents
• He describes this as moving into "a new world of tents" which has been his world since that day

Losses: The Killing of His Professor, His Aunt, and a Friend

Discovering the death of Dr. Sufjan/Sofian Taya

Online post announcing Taya's killing[27:52]
• At some point in the chaos, with limited internet, he saw an online post honoring Dr. Taya and announcing his killing
• The post included a picture of Taya with warm brown eyes and silver hair flipped back
Circumstances of Taya's death[28:14]
• The host says he was killed by an Israeli airstrike
• When most people sought refuge in southern Gaza after displacement orders, Taya instead went further north, likely to his family home
• That is where he was killed; the host notes "I don't know if took refuge is the right choice of word"
Qasem's reaction to the news[29:03]
• He says he stopped for a minute or two, silently holding his phone and staring at the post
• He could not believe it and did not express his feelings loudly, keeping them inside

Death of his aunt Samar and international legal responses

Aunt Samar denied medical travel and dying[29:09]
• A month after Taya's death, his aunt Samar was prevented by the Israeli government from traveling to Egypt for medical treatment
• She died after being denied this travel
ICJ proceedings and U.S. support for Israel[29:58]
• At the same time, the UN's International Court of Justice convened and decided not to call what was happening a genocide
• The U.S. continued to send billions of dollars in bombs and other military aid to Israel

Later losses and ongoing devastation

Rafah turned from rubble to sand[30:36]
• In May 2024, Israel invaded Rafah
• He says Rafah now lies not in rubble but in sand and calls it "beyond rubble"-it has become a desert
Killing of one of his best friends[31:03]
• In July, one of his best friends was killed in an airstrike

Writing as Survival: Quantum Essays from a Tent

Turning point: deciding to speak and write publicly

From privacy to publishing essays[29:35]
• In spring 2024, he hit a breaking point and, despite being a private person, began publishing pieces describing his reality
• His goal was to speak up loudly and "scream at the world" to take action
Examples of his early writings[30:18]
• He began with a poem about his aunt, expressing how he missed her and their time together and saying "the memories keep buzzing above your couch"
• He wrote an elegy to Dr. Taya, saying life felt different now that Israel had killed his professor and that knowledge felt trapped behind unopenable gates
• He wrote about bombed pharmacies and schools, and life in the tent camp, describing fires burning unchecked and garbage rotting in the sun

Bringing quantum concepts into descriptions of daily life

Quantum harmonic oscillator as metaphor for fetching water[30:30]
• In nearly every essay, he eventually casts light on the quantum world
• He writes that his movement resembles a quantum harmonic oscillator (QHO)
• He explains that in the QHO electrons use a kind of "stairs" called the ladder operator to move between energy states
• He imagines himself as an electron: the water becomes his creation operator, enabling him to move from a lower to higher energy state-from being more thirsty to less thirsty
Host questions whether quantum language might confuse readers[31:52]
• The host notes that quantum physics is hard to understand and wonders if using such terms might confuse people instead of clarify his reality
• She frames his situation as being in hell, with much of the outside world not caring or acting, and asks if the quantum framing might fall short

Why quantum physics is his refuge and language

Seeing the world through one's discipline[32:37]
• He says he comes from a scientific background and when you study something, you live by it and see everything from its perspective
• He gives analogies: a writer sees people as stories or poems, a doctor sees people as cases, an engineer might see people as machines
• He identifies himself as a physicist and student of physics trying to live through a genocide
Quantum world as his only haven[32:37]
• He calls physics his only haven where he can take refuge
• He says when you love a place and feel you own it, you can be out of reach, and for him that place is the universe of physics he builds in his head
• He emphasizes he is building this place on a daily basis mentally, not physically
• If others cannot offer him safety, refuge, or comfort, he feels lucky to at least have this inner world of physics while two million others in Gaza suffer
• He clarifies that he is also suffering, but uses his love of physics as a safe zone

Living Superposition: Schrödinger's Cat and the Gazan Box

Imagining safety inside an atom

Atoms as unreachable by bombs[33:47]
• As houses, hospitals, streets, and schools are targeted, he asks whether Israel can reach an atom
• He imagines that if he were living inside an atom, as an electron, that would be his safe haven beyond reach of the Israeli army

Schrödinger's cat as a model for his existence

Summary of Schrödinger's cat thought experiment[35:04]
• The host briefly explains Schrödinger's cat: a cat in a box with a radioactive atom that may or may not decay and kill it
• Because the atom is in superposition of decayed and not decayed until observed, the question arises whether the cat is both alive and dead before the box is opened
• The host notes Schrödinger intended the puzzle as a critique of quantum interpretations, arguing a cat cannot literally be both dead and alive
• Other scientists, she says, have instead accepted that maybe the cat really is both dead and alive before observation
Qasem's essay: feeling like Schrödinger's cat in Gaza[34:33]
• He writes that like Schrödinger's cat, he is trapped in a box that will eventually kill him
• He says that many people know he is inside the box, but none can tell if he is alive or dead
• He notes that he is, at least at the moment of writing, not dead yet
• However, because he cannot leave the box and all possible paths ahead lead to his death, he feels he cannot say he is truly alive either
• He concludes that his existence seems to be a superposition of being simultaneously alive and dead
• He writes, "I'm alive in a lifeless life, and all the possible paths ahead lead to my death"

Clarifying where his focus is: inside the box, not the collapse

Living the period before measurement[37:07]
• Asked if he is picturing not the moment of collapse but what happens inside the box the whole time, he says exactly-that is what he is living
• He says the whole point is that he feels sorry for the cat, speaking as a human and Palestinian stuck in Gaza, not just as a physicist
Duration and shrinking of the Gazan box[36:41]
• He emphasizes he has been stuck in Gaza not just for two years but for 20 years, and in a broader sense for seven decades
• Before the current war, he had adjusted to a certain box: they knew electricity and water schedules and coped with that constrained life
• Now, however, the box is ever-shrinking, making life far less tolerable and more constrained
• He says the cat is him; he empathizes with the cat because he identifies as the cat in the experiment

Daily horror and the feeling of a gun at the back of the head

Metaphor of constant imminent execution[37:16]
• Asked what it feels like to be many states at once, he says it feels like having someone walking behind you with a gun pointed at the back of your head
• He describes this as horror and says they are horrified on a daily basis
Risk in all ordinary activities in Gaza[37:32]
• He lists numerous everyday actions that could lead to his death: grabbing food, going to the sea to fish, returning home for wood, going to the market, or riding in a car
• In each case he says he might be hit or targeted and killed anywhere in Gaza
• He admits he struggles to fully describe this insanity and that no one should have to live like this

From Observer to Object of Study: Shifting Roles and Final Plea

Shift from studying reality to showing reality

Change in his scientific priorities[38:30]
• Before the war, he wanted to understand how we gain knowledge about dilemmas and problems in physics, mathematics, and other sciences
• Now, he wants to show the world reality "as it is" and have others investigate it
Becoming the subject rather than the scientist[39:04]
• He says he has shifted from scientist to object of study-"I am the one who is inside the box"
• He describes being stuck, out of reach, out of resources, out of knowledge, and out of everything that could help him open the box
• He says he tried and failed to change things himself and now it is the world's turn

Critique of Schrödinger's cat framing and call to action

What scientists miss in Schrödinger's cat[39:40]
• He notes that in Schrödinger's experiment, everyone asked whether the cat was alive or dead but no one actually opened the box to see
• He points out that if they opened the box, the superposition would collapse, and the cat would only be dead if they did not open it in time
Final plea: "Please open the box"[40:04]
• He distinguishes humans from cats, emphasizing "We're not cats"
• He ends with a plea to the outside world: "Please open the box"-a call to look directly at Gaza's reality and act before it is too late

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

In extreme circumstances, cultivating an inner world grounded in something you love-whether a discipline, art, or practice-can function as a psychological refuge when your external environment is unsafe or chaotic.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What specific subject, craft, or practice could serve as a mental "safe zone" for you when your external circumstances become overwhelming?
  • • How might you more intentionally build and revisit that inner world during times of stress so it feels available when you need it most?
  • • When could you carve out 15-30 minutes this week to immerse yourself in that refuge and notice how it affects your mood and resilience?
2

Using metaphors and frameworks from your own expertise can be a powerful way to communicate complex or painful experiences to people who are otherwise distant or disengaged.

Reflection Questions:

  • • From your own field or background, what metaphors or models could help others better grasp a difficult situation you are facing?
  • • How could translating your experience into a familiar framework for your audience change the way they listen or respond?
  • • What is one conversation or piece of writing this month where you could experiment with explaining something hard through a metaphor you deeply understand?
3

Living under prolonged uncertainty feels like an endless "superposition," so it becomes crucial to acknowledge the fear while still making deliberate choices instead of letting paralysis take over.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your life right now do you feel like you are in a limbo state, unable to see clearly whether outcomes will be good or bad?
  • • How could you separate what you cannot control from the small actions you can still take, even while the larger situation remains uncertain?
  • • What is one concrete step you could take this week in an area of uncertainty that would move you from passive waiting toward active agency?
4

There is a moral difference between observing suffering from afar and "opening the box"-choosing to look directly, seek accurate information, and accept some responsibility for how you respond.

Reflection Questions:

  • • On issues of large-scale suffering or injustice, where do you tend to look away or rely on vague impressions instead of seeking concrete, detailed accounts?
  • • How might directly exposing yourself to first-person stories or primary sources about a situation change your emotional and ethical response to it?
  • • What is one topic or crisis you could "open the box" on this month by reading, listening, or talking to someone directly affected and then deciding how you want to respond?
5

Our roles can shift from observer to participant-or even object-within powerful systems, and recognizing that shift is a first step toward asking for help and demanding accountability from those with more power.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In which areas of your life are you still acting as if you are an independent observer when, in reality, larger systems are acting upon you?
  • • How could acknowledging your position within those systems change the way you advocate for yourself or for others who share your situation?
  • • What conversation, letter, or action could you take this month to clearly articulate your experience to someone with greater influence over the system you are in?

Episode Summary - Notes by Finley

Quantum Refuge
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