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Pivot

Flight Cancellation Chaos, SNAP Ruling, and U.S.-Canada Trade War

Published November 11, 2025
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About This Episode

In this live Pivot taping from Toronto, hosts Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway discuss escalating U.S. flight delays tied to FAA staffing and a government shutdown, using airline safety and history to illustrate how policy choices affect economic vitality and public trust. They examine the U.S. Supreme Court's handling of SNAP food benefits, child hunger, and what budget priorities reveal about American values, before turning to U.S.-Canada tariffs, asymmetric trade benefits, Canadian efforts to diversify away from the U.S., and missed innovation opportunities. The episode also explores progressive urban politics, models of modern masculinity, debates over state-run grocery stores versus higher minimum wage, falling cross-border tourism, and audience questions on defending democracy, advertising careers, and AI-driven disinformation.

Topics Covered

Airline industry SNAP benefits Wealth inequality Tariffs International trade Travel and tourism Artificial intelligence Media trust and propaganda U.S. politics and elections Personal Development

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • Air travel delays and potential FAA cutbacks are framed as a self-inflicted drag on economic vitality and one of history's most transformative, broadly shared innovations.
  • The handling of SNAP food benefits highlights how U.S. fiscal choices over-index against children and reveal a national character that tolerates child hunger despite vast prosperity.
  • U.S.-Canada trade is economically asymmetric, with the U.S. extracting more shareholder value per export dollar, making current tariffs both irrational and unkind toward a key ally.
  • Canada's push to diversify exports and build independent innovation capacity is portrayed as both a rational response to U.S. unpredictability and a missed opportunity for past Canadian tech leadership.
  • Scott outlines a three-part model of masculinity-provider, protector, and procreation-and argues that high-profile male leaders have failed on the protector dimension.
  • They debate government-run grocery and liquor stores versus simply giving people more money and raising the minimum wage to improve access to food.
  • Tariffs aimed at reviving manufacturing are contrasted with the larger and higher-margin tourism sector, which is being damaged by deteriorating U.S.-Canada relations.
  • On AI and disinformation, both hosts call for clear regulation, especially around kids, and for holding large tech platforms accountable through antitrust, fines, and legal consequences.
  • Audience questions surface anxieties about the erosion of U.S. democracy and seek guidance on both political leadership and navigating careers in a shifting advertising landscape.

Podcast Notes

Live show introduction and tour context

Opening of the live Pivot recording in Toronto

Hosts introduce themselves and the venue[1:31]
• Kara Swisher opens by saying they are live from the Queen Elizabeth Theatre in Toronto, and identifies Pivot as being from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.
• Scott Galloway joins in and asks where they are, prompting the crowd to respond "Toronto."
Seven Cities in Seven Days tour[1:58]
• Kara notes this Toronto show is the first stop on their "Seven Cities in Seven Days" tour, joking that spending all their time together will challenge their relationship.
Localizing each show[2:31]
• Kara explains they are making each city show local-using the example that Boston will have Boston-specific discussion-and that tonight they will talk a lot about Canada and related topics.

Banter about Toronto and trivia

Raccoons and vegans in Toronto[2:53]
• Scott claims there are more raccoons in Toronto than kids under age 10 and calls it a "true story."
• He adds that 5% of Torontonians are vegan, and says he does not know if that is especially high or low.
Playful exchange about ChatGPT and synthetic relationships[3:27]
• Kara teases Scott for being on ChatGPT in the car on the way to the venue, saying he was effectively in a relationship with a chatbot.
• She jokes that he was typing a prompt about being addicted to a synthetic porn relationship.

Flight cancellations, FAA, and airline safety

Current and projected flight delays due to government shutdown

Kara's delayed flight and FAA cutbacks[2:50]
• Kara says her flight was three hours late, while Scott's was fine.
• She notes that across the U.S., flight cancellations could rise 15% or even 20% if the government shutdown continues.
• She says the FAA began by cutting around 3% of flights at select airports, including hers, and that by the time the show airs that number could be up to 10%.
Economic and social impact of flight reduction[4:20]
• Scott argues that reducing airline capacity is bad for business and tourism and feels like someone asked ChatGPT how to elegantly reduce American prosperity.
• Kara later ties delayed flights to the logistics and costs of their own tour operations and sold-out shows, noting that staffing and local economic activity depend on reliable air travel.

Airline travel as a major innovation

Scott's ranking of transformative innovations[4:31]
• Scott says the greatest innovation in history is the Western nation middle class.
• He cites vaccines as a top innovation, noting tens of millions of children reach adulthood each year because of vaccines, and says if you do not think vaccines are the biggest innovation, "your head's up your ass."
• He identifies the personal computer as another major innovation, describing it as putting a $30 million supercomputer from 1970 onto everyone's desk for about $300 by 1995.
• He argues that airline travel is among the greatest innovations, allowing them to be in seven cities in seven days, skirting the atmosphere at seven-tenths the speed of sound for relatively little cost, instead of 19th-century journeys that might have ended in cannibalism.
Airline industry profits versus consumer benefit[7:04]
• Scott claims that if you added up all profits and losses of airlines and jet manufacturers like Boeing, Airbus, and Bombardier throughout history, they would be at breakeven this year.
• He uses this to argue that some innovations (like airlines, PCs, and vaccines) benefit the public broadly rather than allowing a small number of companies to sequester trillions in value.

Speculation about AI as a broadly shared innovation

Hopes and geopolitical concerns around AI[8:05]
• Scott wonders if AI could ultimately resemble vaccines, PCs, or airlines by broadly benefiting consumers without concentrating all value in a few firms.
• He speculates that China might dump inexpensive large language models into the market to go after America's "jugular" or because they are tired of dealing with the U.S.

FAA safety standards, anxiety, and regulation

Vision behind extremely high aviation safety

Making planes much safer than cars[9:16]
• Scott says air travel feels unnatural; he describes experiencing new anxiety on planes as he got older and learned that humans are not evolutionarily used to moving 500 mph at altitude.
• He explains that regulators decided to make auto safety "one sigma" while making planes "four sigma," meaning significantly higher safety standards for aviation.
• He notes aviation companies are often "shitty businesses" because the cost and time to get FAA certification are so intense.
• He says people accept flying because they see statistics that the most dangerous part of a flight is the ride to the airport.

Current erosion of safety and competency

Concerns about staffing cuts and near misses[11:47]
• Kara mentions that two planes almost collided in Los Angeles that day and predicts a midair collision or other terrible incident if safety continues to be compromised.
• She calls the Trump administration's transportation secretary, Sean Duffy, an incompetent "idiot" from a reality show and says the shutdown is being used as a political pawn.

SNAP benefits, child hunger, and American values

Supreme Court, SNAP ruling, and Judge Jackson's strategy

Snap benefits versus massive executive pay[12:07]
• Kara recalls that in the prior week they discussed Elon Musk's trillion-dollar pay package alongside cuts to SNAP food benefits.
• She says the Supreme Court is letting the Trump administration continue to hold back full benefits, but calls Judge Jackson's move to send the case to the First Circuit Court of Appeals "very smart" because that court is more liberal and can act faster.
• Kara characterizes opponents of restoring full SNAP benefits as people "who want to stop children from eating food."

Child hunger statistics and budget as moral document

Disproportionate impact on children[15:26]
• Scott states that about 22% of America's population is under 18, but 40% of SNAP recipients are children, which he presents as evidence the country over-indexes hunger on kids.
• He calls it "astonishing" that, given U.S. prosperity, the nation allows so many children to go hungry.
Older voters, democracy, and intergenerational transfers[15:00]
• Scott says his father used to say America is a terrible place to be stupid; he reframes this as America being a terrible place to be unfortunate.
• He argues that older Americans have effectively "voted themselves more money" and that democracy is working "too well" for them, with spending skewed toward their interests.
• He highlights that the U.S. now spends more money on ICE than on children, saying budgets reveal values and likening current capitalism to "The Hunger Games," where winners live unimaginably well and others suffer a slow, ugly decline.

Trump-era opulence, ICE raids, and optics

Juxtaposing lavish imagery with cruelty[16:01]
• Kara references ICE raids and SNAP cuts alongside Trump posting 17 photos of the Lincoln Bedroom bathroom, the Oval Office, and a "ridiculous" gold-filled ballroom.
• She suggests these visuals collectively indict the Trump administration and jokes that she is waiting for three spirits to visit him at Christmas.

U.S.-Canada trade war and economic interdependence

Tariffs on Canadian imports and Carney's response

Scope of tariffs and Canadian policy response[22:00]
• Kara says that since Trump took office, the U.S. has imposed sweeping tariffs on Canadian imports, with many goods facing up to 35% tariffs and steel and aluminum facing 15%.
• She notes that after four decades of close economic partnership, Prime Minister Mark Carney is saying it is time to "date other people" and wants to double exports to countries other than the U.S. within 10 years.
• She says his government's new budget proposes spending 280 billion Canadian dollars (200 billion U.S.) over five years to offset the U.S. trade war, attract investment, and increase defense spending.
• Kara notes Carney is two seats away from a majority government after a conservative MP defected to the liberals, and that he is "doing rather well."
• She mentions a Doug Ford ad that angered Trump and says she did not expect that from Ford but approves of it.

Asymmetric benefits of U.S.-Canada trade

Export shares and value creation[23:55]
• Scott gives context that Canada has the largest undefended border in the world with the U.S., and militarizing it would cost 20-50 billion dollars per year for either side.
• He notes that 60-70% of Canadian exports go to the U.S., while only about 17% of U.S. exports go to Canada.
• He explains that Canadian exports to the U.S. are typically low-margin products like oil, petroleum, and lumber, often trading at lower price-to-earnings multiples.
• By contrast, U.S. exports to Canada are higher-margin goods such as automobiles, electronics, iPhones, and pharmaceuticals, whose companies often trade at P/E multiples of 20-30.
• Scott concludes that for every dollar in exports the U.S. sells to Canada, it gets about three times the shareholder value compared to each Canadian export dollar, meaning the U.S. has benefited more from this trade.

Tariffs as self-harm and unkindness to an ally

Economic irrationality and emotional framing[25:20]
• Scott likens current U.S. tariff policy to an angry divorce where the wealthier partner is willing to hurt themselves more financially because it will still hurt the poorer partner relatively more.
• He calls the tariffs economically stupid and "unkind" given the long history of Canadian support in wars like World War I, World War II, and Afghanistan.
Global reconfiguration of alliances[28:14]
• Scott says Trump's trade wars have indeed sparked a flurry of dealmaking, but the bad news is that it largely does not involve the U.S.
• He argues world leaders are now touring to build new supply chains and alliances that exclude America, and that after Trump leaves office it will take at least a decade to repair these trade relationships.
• He compares Canada's diversification away from U.S. dependence to Urban Outfitters' decision, during COVID, to diversify production away from a heavily concentrated region in Shenzhen.

Innovation, tech leadership, and Canadian opportunities

BlackBerry, Waterloo, and missed tech potential

Dependence on the U.S. and innovation gaps[30:17]
• Kara recalls being so attached to her BlackBerry that she held one in the delivery room while having a baby, underscoring its former dominance.
• She observes that despite early leadership in mobile computing, BlackBerry was later overrun by Apple, Google, and others, and suggests that heavy dependence on the U.S. may have limited broader Canadian tech innovation.
• Kara praises the University of Waterloo as an astonishing technology school and frames Canada's situation as an opportunity to revive innovation without over-reliance on American platforms.

Why unicorns tend to stop at the Canadian border

Risk, tax policy, and entrepreneurial ecosystems[32:34]
• Scott says the U.S. regulatory environment, which he characterizes as "ready fire aim," creates fast-mover opportunities.
• He argues the core U.S. advantage can be summed up as "risk": immigrants who left other countries to come to the U.S. were those willing to take more risk.
• He notes that successful companies like Shopify create local liquidity events, after which founders often start VC firms and reinvest in the local ecosystem.
• Scott describes the U.S. tax system as progressive up to about the 99th percentile, after which effective tax rates plummet, citing a 52% rate for high earners in blue states versus about 6% for the 25 wealthiest families.
• He suggests this system, plus limited safety nets and pervasive optimism, incentivizes Americans to take outsized risks in pursuit of high upside.

Masculinity, mayors, and role models

Comparing progressive mayors and a New York candidate

Olivia Chow and New York's affordability debate[36:26]
• Kara notes that Toronto's mayor, Olivia Chow, is a progressive who ran on affordability in 2023 and has advised a "newly elected" New York mayor that housing, not free buses, defines affordability.
Kara's question about a male political role model[36:55]
• Kara brings up Mamdani (a New York political figure), framing him as an example of the respectful, community-oriented men Scott writes about: someone who meets people around the city.
• She asks whether Mamdani exemplifies the kind of man Scott thinks young men should look up to.

Scott's three-part model of masculinity

Provider, protector, and procreation[39:18]
• Scott defines masculinity as having three components: provider, protector, and procreation.
• On "provider," he says men should assume they will need to take economic responsibility for their households, even if that later means supporting a partner who is better at finances.
• On "protector," he argues that prominent male figures like the richest man in the world and the president have failed at this aspect of masculinity.
• On "procreation," Scott contends that sexual desire makes men better-encouraging them to dress better, smell better, practice kindness, be resilient, and make safe romantic approaches-and says people should stop demonizing sexual desire.
Assessing Mamdani as a role model[40:55]
• Scott concludes that Mamdani is a super impressive young man and an incredible candidate, saying Democrats can learn from him.
• He highlights that Mamdani takes risks, appears happily married, and talks about protecting others, and he ultimately calls him a great role model for young men.

State-run grocery and liquor stores versus higher wages

Debate on government-run retail

Liquor store example from Alberta[41:30]
• Kara notes that many Canadian provinces have government-run liquor stores and some U.S. states do as well, and asks whether that is acceptable.
• Scott says it was a bad idea in both places; he cites Alberta's experience where, after privatization, the number of liquor stores and employment tripled, and product selection increased eightfold.
• He characterizes government-run liquor stores as a transfer of wealth from consumers to government in exchange for poor service.
Government strengths versus private-sector strengths[41:52]
• Scott says government does some things well-national parks, tax collection, the Navy, and the DMV-but argues grocery and alcohol retail are better handled by the private sector.
• He says people do not need "food-sponsored food lines" via government-owned grocery stores, and grocery is the last thing that should be nationalized.

Improving nutrition access: stores or higher wages?

Kara's concern about nutrition for poorer people[42:24]
• Kara frames the push for state-run grocery as an attempt to get better nutrition to poorer people who cannot currently afford it, especially amid SNAP cuts.
Scott's alternative: cash and higher minimum wage[43:25]
• Scott argues the problem with government programs is that much of the money fails to reach intended beneficiaries due to bureaucracy.
• He proposes giving people more money directly and supports a $25-an-hour minimum wage, which he says Mark Carney is proposing and which he strongly endorses.
• He suggests that with more purchasing power, consumers can force private grocers like Trader Joe's, Kroger, and Loblaws to compete to serve them.

Tourism between the U.S. and Canada and the impact of tariffs

Decline in Canadian visitors and shift in flows

Tourism statistics and economic stakes[42:55]
• Kara notes that last year Canada was the top source of international tourists to the U.S., generating over $20 billion in spending and supporting 140,000 American jobs.
• She says that in the first half of the current year, the U.S. saw a 25% drop in Canadian visitors, and for the second time in nearly 20 years more U.S. residents traveled to Canada than vice versa.

Tariffs versus tourism as economic strategy

Manufacturing fetish and tourism realities[43:37]
• Scott says only about 11% of Americans work in manufacturing, but 80% think the country needs more manufacturing, which he calls a "fetish."
• He points out that 12% of Americans are employed in tourism, a higher-margin sector than many manufacturing industries.
• He argues that tariffs meant to prop up manufacturing are accelerating the decline of tourism, which employs more people and produces greater margins, making the policy doubly counterproductive.
What could bring Canadians back?[44:45]
• Kara asks what the U.S. could do to entice Canadians back as tourists, suggesting the departure of Trump and his "tiny minion" as a starting point.
• Scott answers that the U.S. simply needs to "make America, America again" and return to normalcy, not special tourism promotions.
• Kara adds that Americans should say "we're so sorry" to Canadians, and she emphasizes that many Canadians now dislike Americans.

Audience Q&A: defending democracy and political leadership

Question about erosion of U.S. democracy and who to follow

Canadian audience member's concern[48:45]
• A questioner from the audience says they are terrified watching the dismantling of U.S. democracy through legal and military systems and asks who people should follow on the opposite side of Trump's mobilization.

Kara's and Scott's responses on resilience

Local elections and the role of young people[49:50]
• Kara points to recent U.S. elections, including local city council races, as evidence that the American public still has a voice and can shape outcomes.
• She says they do not yet know who the Democratic leader will be, but argues the party should embrace a wide range of figures with different ideological leanings around a few shared priorities like affordability, dignity, and democracy.
• She says she believes in young people and notes that in the New York mayoral race, young voters rejected a "Trump-loving" Democrat accused of bad behavior.
Historical perspective on dark periods[51:13]
• Scott recounts prior dark periods in U.S. history-slaveholder dominance, veterans being fired upon in the 1930s, and Japanese internment-as examples of the democracy being tested and later strengthened.
• He says democracy is like a muscle being stressed and believes it will grow back stronger, while warning that this is not an excuse for complacency.

Audience Q&A: careers in advertising and media shifts

Question from an advertising strategist and educator

Concerns about the future of advertising work[52:54]
• An audience member who exited their agency, still consults, and teaches asks whether they and their wife, who both work in advertising, are "screwed" if they stay in the industry or should pivot now.

Scott's situational advice for advertising professionals

Age, relationships, and industry trajectory[53:29]
• Scott says if someone is over 40, has senior-level sponsorship, and owns client relationships, they can probably ride it out within advertising.
• He advises younger professionals with options in other sectors to get out of the "ad-supported ecosystem," arguing it will be a difficult, non-growing industry.
Importance of small-screen media expertise[53:46]
• Scott recommends, for those who stay, getting as close as possible to client relationships and becoming skilled at buying media and creating content for small screens.
• He states that the return on investment of human and financial capital is inversely correlated with screen size: big-screen movie work is a bad business, TV is large but flat, and small-screen design is "champagne and cocaine."

Audience Q&A: AI, disinformation, and regulation

Question about AI as fuel for disinformation

Audience member's concern about the "horse out of the barn"[54:50]
• An audience member says AI has been fuel on the fire of disinformation and asks how to curb it or whether the horse is already too far out of the barn.

Kara's call for regulation and guardrails

Historical continuity of propaganda and new amplification[56:16]
• Kara emphasizes that propaganda preceded AI and social media; what is new is the amplification and weaponization through current technologies.
Legislative priorities around AI and social media[56:20]
• She argues regulators must set clear guardrails, starting with protecting young people, and criticizes technology leaders for not caring about user safety.
• Kara says there are essentially no U.S. laws regulating the tech industry and calls for new rules on transparency, privacy, usage, and safety.
• She insists that citizens must pressure legislators to develop reasonable guardrails that do not kill innovation but prevent the destruction of democracy.

Scott's framing of AI, platform incentives, and youth

AI as linchpin of market valuations[57:12]
• Scott says the U.S. economy is a giant bet on AI, claiming the market would be flat without the massive AI-driven run-up of about 10 companies that now represent 40% of the S&P and 20% of global market value.
Profit incentives tied to social harms[58:01]
• He asserts that these companies are mostly in the business of dividing and polarizing people and sequestering them from one another, especially by separating children from parents and peers and making them feel bad about their country and democracy.
• Scott warns that there is now a profit motive attached to evolving a "new species" of asocial, asexual youth, which he calls terrible for both society and the economy.
Policy prescriptions to limit harm[58:05]
• Scott calls for banning synthetic relationships for anyone under 18, phones in schools, and social media for those under 16.
• He advocates subjecting big tech to antitrust enforcement and fines, and says "someone needs to do a fucking perp walk."

Closing reflections on relationships and U.S.-Canada alliance

Importance of offline, challenging relationships

Kara and Scott's partnership as example[58:47]
• Kara says that in an era of AI, separation, anxiety, and partisanship, it is crucial to get along with people you disagree with, citing her relationship with Scott as an example.
• She stresses that real-world personal relationships, especially unlikely ones with disagreement and challenge, are more significant than online interactions.

Embracing imperfect allies and U.S.-Canada bond

Scott's appeal to Canadians[1:00:13]
• Scott urges embracing "imperfect allies," asking Canada to "hang with us" and asserting that Americans love Canada.
• They close by thanking Toronto and reiterating that most Americans truly like and value Canadians.

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Economic policies that seem symbolically strong-like tariffs or agency shutdowns-can quietly erode prosperity by damaging high-value systems and relationships, such as aviation safety, tourism, and trusted trade alliances.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your own work or community are you supporting policies or habits that feel tough or principled but actually undermine long-term value?
  • • How could you better account for second- and third-order effects before backing a particular strategic or political move?
  • • What specific economic or relational "infrastructure" in your life (key clients, partners, allies) deserves more protection than short-term point-scoring?
2

Budgets-whether for nations, companies, or households-are moral documents that reveal real priorities, regardless of stated values or rhetoric.

Reflection Questions:

  • • If someone looked only at how you spend your money and time, what would they conclude are your top three priorities?
  • • How might you reallocate a portion of your resources to better align with the people and causes you say you care about most?
  • • What line item in your personal or organizational budget could you cut or shrink to fund something that reflects your deeper values?
3

In a fast-changing economy, it is safer to be competent in a growing, high-ROI niche than excellent in a stagnant or shrinking one, and owning relationships is as important as technical skill.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which parts of your current skill set are most aligned with sectors or mediums that are actually growing rather than contracting?
  • • How can you deepen or formalize key relationships so you are less vulnerable to structural shifts in your industry?
  • • What is one concrete step you could take in the next 90 days to move yourself closer to a high-growth niche (new training, side project, or role change)?
4

Healthy masculinity, as framed here, combines economic responsibility, protection of others, and pro-social expressions of desire, rather than power, cruelty, or entitlement.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which of the provider, protector, and procreation dimensions do you embody most strongly today, and which do you tend to neglect?
  • • How could you translate the "protector" role into everyday actions that make people around you feel safer emotionally, financially, or physically?
  • • What is one belief you hold about masculinity, sexuality, or success that might be harming your relationships and could be updated?
5

When powerful technologies are profitably aligned with social division and youth alienation, waiting for companies to self-regulate is unrealistic; citizens must push for clear guardrails, especially around children.

Reflection Questions:

  • • How are the digital tools and platforms you or your family use most often shaping your mood, attention, and sense of connection?
  • • In what small but concrete ways could you reduce the influence of divisive, addictive platforms in your household or workplace (rules, defaults, or alternatives)?
  • • Where in your local or national political system could you lend your voice-through voting, advocacy, or donations-to support sensible tech regulation that protects kids?

Episode Summary - Notes by Finley

Flight Cancellation Chaos, SNAP Ruling, and U.S.-Canada Trade War
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