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How I Built This with Guy Raz

Advice Line with Randy Hetrick of TRX

with Randy Hetrick, Paige Say, Kerry Jones, Catherine Perry

Published September 25, 2025
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About This Episode

Host Guy Raz speaks with TRX founder Randy Hetrick on an 'Advice Line' episode where they take calls from three founders seeking guidance on scaling their businesses. Randy first updates listeners on his journey selling TRX to private equity, starting a new outdoor fitness venture, and eventually buying TRX back in a turnaround. Together, Guy and Randy advise the founders of an emerging low-caffeine energy drink brand entering Target, an Australian meat pie franchise looking for strategic investment, and an adaptive apparel company debating how narrowly to focus its target markets.

Topics Covered

Entrepreneurship Business growth and scaling Franchising Marketing and customer education Private equity Problem-first invention Scrappiness in business Unit economics Integrity in business Customer acquisition

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • Getting profitable early and staying profitable gives founders far more control and clarity in their decision-making than chasing rapid, investor-fueled growth.
  • Big-box retail opportunities like Target or Costco can be transformative but also risky if the financing, return terms, and sell-through realities are not fully understood.
  • Early-stage brands benefit from sharply defined target customers and focused marketing rather than trying to appeal to everyone at once.
  • In franchise-style businesses, the simplicity and repeatability of the core concept are critical to successful scaling.
  • Strategic investors often promise a lot; founders should carefully validate their actual operating experience and specific, relevant contributions.
  • Problem-driven products born from personal experience-like adaptive clothing or functional fitness tools-can uncover underserved markets with strong emotional resonance.
  • For specialized products, institutional channels (hospitals, long-term care, rehab facilities) can be more effective early markets than broad retail.
  • Retired or semi-retired operators with domain expertise can sometimes be more valuable than traditional financial investors at an early stage.

Podcast Notes

Introduction to the Advice Line episode and format

Guy Raz sets up the Advice Line concept

Purpose of the Advice Line[3:32]
• Guy explains this is where they help listeners solve business challenges by taking their calls.
• Each week he is joined by a legendary founder and former guest who co-answers questions.
How listeners can get on the show[3:56]
• Guy gives the call-in number and asks for a one-minute message describing the business and the issue needing help.
• He also offers an email/voice memo option and asks callers to include contact info.
Mention of Guy's newsletter[4:12]
• Guy briefly promotes his newsletter as being full of insights and ideas from entrepreneurs.

Catch-up with guest advisor Randy Hetrick of TRX

Reintroduction of Randy and TRX origin story

Guy reintroduces Randy and TRX[4:35]
• Guy welcomes back Randy Hetrick, describing him as the founder and inventor of TRX, a full body resistance strap exercise system.
• He notes Randy was first on the show in 2017, in the early days of the program.
TRX origin recap[4:51]
• Guy summarizes Randy's Navy SEAL background and how being grounded in Southeast Asia led him and teammates to seek ways to work out.
• Randy had an old jujitsu belt he used for upper-body work by throwing it over a bathroom door for resistance training.
• Guy frames that as the genesis of TRX, calling it a great story.
Randy reflects on the TRX origin[5:39]
• Randy confirms Guy's summary is accurate and jokes that the straps "had pretty long legs" as a product.

Randy's journey since 2017: sale, leaving, new startup, and buying TRX back

Sale of TRX to private equity and misalignment[6:11]
• Randy notes it has been about eight years since the prior interview and a lot has happened.
• He sold TRX to some private equity investors, which he says "was not a match made in heaven."
• After a couple of years he decided he needed to "pursue my bliss elsewhere" and left.
Creation of Outfit: outdoor mobile fitness[6:29]
• Randy started a company called Outfit, describing it as outdoor mobile fitness.
• He says just as he was getting Outfit up and rolling, an opportunity arose to buy back TRX from a troubled situation.
Buying back TRX and juggling two companies[6:36]
• Randy partnered with his friend Jack Daly to form a plan to buy TRX back.
• He describes ending up with a turnaround (TRX) and a startup (Outfit) simultaneously, calling it "almost more fun than one guy should have."
• He says TRX is doing great again and Outfit is progressing.

Outfit business model and vision

How Outfit works operationally[7:07]
• Guy characterizes Outfit as a "gym in a van" with a franchise model, asking Randy to confirm.
• Randy explains the van is like a rolling storage unit full of functional training gear.
• Group fitness classes are conducted outdoors in locations like parks, parking lots, and beaches.
• He notes the setup and teardown for a class take about 10 minutes each before the van drives away.
Why Randy is excited about Outfit for veterans and trainers[7:55]
• Randy is excited about Outfit as an opportunity for veterans leaving service because the buy-in and operating costs are far lower without brick-and-mortar facilities.
• He emphasizes his passion for veterans and fitness trainers, saying those are two groups of people he really loves.
• Guy compares Outfit to mobile bike repair services with fully equipped vans and notes Outfit uses light equipment like straps and functional tools, not treadmills or large machines.

Fitness market changes and launching new products today

Guy's question about launching products in today's crowded market[9:13]
• Guy notes the fitness market has gotten both easier (access to manufacturers) and harder (more noise, more products, higher customer acquisition costs).
• He asks how Randy would introduce a new product today and break through the clutter on platforms like Amazon and social media.
Randy on cluttered markets and the role of influencers[8:52]
• Randy calls it a non-trivial problem because the market clutter is "profound" and breaking out is difficult.
• He says one route-buying exposure-is largely foreclosed to early-stage companies unless the founder has substantial personal wealth.
• He recommends recruiting authentic influencers with large, trusting followings as a relatively inexpensive strategy.
• Randy notes that compensating influencers with equity can align them as true partners instead of pay-to-play promoters.

Caller 1: Paige Say of Benny - low-caffeine energy drink and Target launch

Introduction to Benny and its product differentiation

Paige introduces herself and Benny[10:47]
• Paige Say introduces herself as co-founder of Benny, calling from Toronto, Canada.
• She says Benny is "shaking up the energy market" with naturopathic doctor-formulated energy drinks for caffeine-conscious or caffeine-sensitive consumers.
What makes Benny different from typical energy drinks[11:02]
• Paige explains Benny uses less caffeine: 85 milligrams per can, which is light for energy drinks or even a cup of coffee.
• The caffeine source is yerba mate tea, which she describes as giving a gentle, sustained boost similar to matcha.
• They include adaptogens (lion's mane, reishi, and ginseng) in a proprietary blend to deliver a sustained boost.

Founding story and early funding of Benny

How co-founders met and discovered the problem[11:27]
• Paige met her co-founder in university (University of Victoria), bonding over wellness and entrepreneurship.
• Her co-founder was an athlete who one day went on a run and went into what Paige describes as anaphylactic shock: throat closing and body covered in hives.
• After months of tests, doctors diagnosed exercise-induced anaphylaxia, but when her co-founder cut back excessive caffeine (multiple coffees, Red Bulls, caffeine pills), her health improved.
• They realized caffeine overuse was a bigger problem for others too and, with a naturopathic doctor, decided to create a more moderate, functional energy drink.
Bootstrapping and early growth[12:27]
• They launched using a small $25,000 bank loan, which Paige describes as life-changing and essential to starting.
• Initial formulation work started in her co-founder Julie's kitchen, with help from a naturopathic doctor and other team members.
• Over two years they bootstrapped the business and remained profitable, which Paige notes is notable for a beverage business.
• They have grown to about 1,000 stores across Canada.

Benny's big break: nationwide Target launch and associated challenges

Announcement of Target partnership[13:46]
• Paige shares, for the first time publicly, that Benny will launch in Target stores nationwide later in the year.
• She asks how to set up for success beyond just the financial requirements.
Randy's initial reaction and praise for profitability[14:02]
• Randy congratulates her early success and notes their steep growth trajectory.
• He highlights that being profitable is powerful because it enables better decision-making and says he advises everyone to get profitable quickly and stay profitable.
Current scale and details of Target rollout[13:46]
• Paige states they have done just over $500,000 in sales in about two years.
• Target will start with a limited-edition holiday flavor (LTO) in November and December, then roll out to all stores in January.
• She says their Target buyer is deeply engaged and is modeling Benny's rollout on other successful energy drink brands he has worked with.
Importance of experienced retail advisors and risk of big-box launches[16:13]
• Guy asks if Paige has someone experienced with Target or similar retailers beyond the buyer, noting the risk of going into big-box chains too early.
• He mentions past guests who went into Target or Walmart too soon, failed, and were out for years before getting another chance.
• Paige says they have a supportive broker team and strong advisors, including former How I Built This guest Tara Bosch.

Randy's Costco story and caution around big purchase orders

Early opportunity with Costco and decision to pass[16:32]
• Randy recalls that at a similar stage in TRX's evolution, they received a major opportunity with Costco.
• He flew to Costco's headquarters in Issaquah, Washington, and ultimately said no to the deal.
• He would have needed significant debt to finance the pilot, and he was concerned about the retailer's put rights.
Understanding put rights and potential existential risk[17:59]
• Randy explains that big retailers often have contractual rights to return unsold product (put it back to the vendor) if things don't go as hoped.
• He says manufacturers like TRX are dealing with sophisticated buyers, and unfavorable puts combined with product issues could have destroyed his company.
• He reveals that soon after passing on Costco, TRX discovered product problems; had he proceeded, "there would have never been a TRX."
• He urges Paige to understand retailers' return rights and emphasizes the seriousness of saying yes or no to big-box deals.

Clarifying Benny's target customer and brand focus

Driving demand to Target and need for focused marketing[17:14]
• Guy tells Paige she must mobilize followers and fans to go into Target and buy Benny to support sell-through.
• He assumes they will pursue sampling and demos but stresses the importance of organic demand.
Defining Benny's core demographic[18:19]
• Paige says their typical customer is an 18-35-year-old young woman, often a student or young professional.
• She describes them as "friends with Benny" who might use Benny as an afternoon pick-me-up or as their main caffeine source if sensitive like her co-founder.
Contrast with traditional energy drink positioning[18:43]
• Guy notes how Monster targeted a very specific demographic at launch: men into metal, MMA, and motocross.
• He observes that energy drinks are heavily skewed toward extreme-sports male imagery and says he doesn't see many energy drinks targeting women.
• Paige says they think about what Red Bull would be doing for this kind of community in 2025, mentioning that they host events like Pilates sessions for their audience.

Collaboration opportunities and brand positioning

Potential brand collaborations[19:09]
• Guy suggests collaborations with aligned brands, such as a soul cycle-type partner having its own dedicated flavor.
• Paige says they already have collaborations in the works with creators and likes the idea of partnering with fitness studios.
Debating how strongly to lean into women-focused branding[19:31]
• Guy notes Benny's website says "women owned" and says that while he usually advises broad appeal, in this case it makes sense to lean into a women-focused brand.
• Randy supports focusing on a specific segment because limited resources force early-stage companies to concentrate efforts where they're most effective.
• He warns that a shotgun approach will spread resources too thin to make an impression, whereas Benny already has clarity on its primary target: young women.

Advisors, strategy, and closing thoughts for Benny

Value of relevant advisors[20:11]
• Paige mentions advisor Tara Bosch from SmartSweets, whom Guy praises as wonderful.
• Randy says an advisor with directly relevant experience, particularly in big-box retail distribution, is extremely valuable.
Final encouragement[20:37]
• Randy tells Paige it sounds like they are off and running and wishes them the best of luck.
• Guy acknowledges beverages are a tough, competitive category but reiterates there is always room for new products and niche audiences.

Reflection on consumables versus durable products and acquisition potential

Randy's perspective on beverage category advantages

Recurring revenue and strategic exits[20:57]
• Randy contrasts durable products like TRX with consumables, saying the recurring revenue in beverages is attractive.
• He notes that although the category is competitive, a unique product can attract many strategic acquirers looking to roll it into larger portfolios.

Caller 2: Kerry Jones of Peaked Pies - franchising and strategic investors

Introduction to Peaked Pies and concept

Kerry's background and business overview[29:32]
• Kerry Jones introduces herself as president and co-founder of Peaked Pies in Whistler, British Columbia.
• She describes Peaked Pies as an Australian bakery cafe group selling five-inch individual Australian savory meat pies.
Meat pies as cultural staple and Peaked Pies format[29:40]
• Kerry notes meat pies are iconic in Australia and called the national dish.
• She moved to Whistler in 2009 and noticed many Australians but no meat pie shops.
• Her Canadian husband, strong in the kitchen, began making pies at home; friends liked them and they joked about opening a pie shop, which they did in 2013.
Service model and signature "peaked" twist[29:40]
• Peaked Pies operates as quick-service cafes with a custom heated display case of hot pies ready to go.
• Customers order a pie (e.g., steak, bacon, and cheese), then can choose to "get that peaked," adding mashed potatoes, mushy peas, and gravy on top.
• Orders are boxed and handed to customers within about a minute and a half, providing a hot homemade-style dish quickly.

Current scale and move into franchising

Operated locations and production facility[30:37]
• Kerry says they have three corporate-owned Peaked Pies stores.
• They have built a 3,000-square-foot production facility.
• They are currently building their first franchise location.

Main question: evaluating strategic investors and what to ask

Motivation to seek a strategic investor[32:13]
• Kerry references How I Built This episodes where founders credit growth to bringing on the right strategic investor.
• She and her husband have bootstrapped without family money and are now at a point where they want a strategic investor.
What Kerry wants to know from potential investors[31:35]
• She asks what smart questions to ask potential strategic investors and what information to request to evaluate fit.
• She specifically wants to avoid bringing on someone who isn't as strategic as they claim.

Randy's perspective on franchising and questioning the need for external capital

Randy's empathy as an early-stage franchisor[32:48]
• Randy notes that Outfit is also at a similar early stage with franchising, so he is an empathetic early-stage franchisor.
Suitability of Peaked Pies for franchising[31:40]
• Randy says simple concepts make the best franchises, and Peaked Pies' model appears straightforward and well-suited.
• He emphasizes that the more complicated the concept, the harder it is to train franchisees and maintain quality.
Challenging the assumption that external capital is necessary[33:29]
• Randy notes franchises can grow as fast or slow as desired because the franchisor controls how many franchisees are accepted.
• He asks if they are sure they really need external capital or if they could instead control growth speed.
Kerry's rationale for wanting a strategic partner[33:01]
• Kerry says they lack formal education in operations and franchise development and see value in someone experienced in those areas.
• She wants capital but also operational know-how in marketing and development, not just money.
• Randy praises her self-awareness about limitations and underscores the importance of that in entrepreneurs.

Operators vs. financial investors and validating strategic value

Guy on the risk of overestimating investor involvement[32:39]
• Guy warns that many investors talk about strategic help but are invested in many companies and may not be very hands-on.
• He distinguishes between financial investors and investor-operators who also serve as CFO or operations chief.
Three broad paths Kerry could take[33:01]
• Guy outlines three options: bring on a possibly non-strategic investor; recruit strong operators with equity; or recruit operators plus raise money.
• He suggests that having experienced franchise operators onboard is appealing to future strategic investors.
Targeting experienced franchise operators[34:28]
• Guy advises searching LinkedIn for people with franchise-building experience at brands like Panera or Dave's Hot Chicken, ideally semi-retired.
• He recommends approaching such people to join for equity, acknowledging the risk but highlighting the potential upside.

Red flags and due diligence on strategic investors

Randy on investors who overpromise synergies[34:49]
• Randy says it is more common than not for investors to overpromise their strategic value.
• He notes they may cite involvement in a successful brand, but if scrutinized, their role may have been shallow.
• He recommends seeking investors with deep, narrow expertise in relevant areas like food franchising rather than generic investors.
Guy's advice on extracting value from every investor conversation[36:04]
• Guy encourages Kerry not to dismiss people who pass on investing but to ask what they didn't like about the opportunity.
• He suggests also asking if they know someone else who might be a better fit, turning rejections into learning and networking opportunities.

Alternative: hiring expertise with equity and small investors

Building capabilities without relying on a strategic fund[34:46]
• Randy reiterates that Kerry could raise some money from people who love the concept and then hire needed team members with expertise.
• He points out that a couple of years of organic development can dramatically change the business and improve negotiating position.
Reaching out to past guests as potential advisors[36:01]
• Guy suggests Kerry contact past How I Built This guests directly through platforms like Instagram or LinkedIn.
• He notes there is no guarantee they will respond but sees it as a viable avenue to find experienced mentors.

Caller 3: Catherine Perry of Adapt Apparel - focus vs. breadth in adaptive clothing

Introduction to Adapt Apparel and product concept

Catherine's role and company description[45:13]
• Catherine Perry introduces herself as co-founder and VP of Adapt Apparel, calling from Williamstown, Ontario.
• She describes Adapt as a modern adaptive clothing brand creating stylish, easy-to-use clothing for people with disabilities, aging loved ones, and those recovering from surgery or managing medical conditions.
What makes Adapt clothing adaptive[45:21]
• She gives examples of features like a signature patent-pending zipper that runs all the way down for people rehabbing from knee or hip replacements.
• Adapt also designs clothing suitable for infusion, dialysis, and other treatments.

Origin story: caregiving experience and dissatisfaction with existing options

From special education to caregiver to founder[45:15]
• Catherine worked as a special education and phys ed teacher for 21 years before retiring.
• She maintains her own health and wellness business alongside Adapt.
• She then became primary caregiver for both parents, who have Alzheimer's and mobility issues.
Catalyst moment in hospital[46:06]
• When her father was dying, nurses told her he needed adaptive clothing.
• She did not know what that meant but researched and found existing options looked institutional and undignified.
• Unwilling to dress her father in such clothing, she decided "we're going to do better" and launched Adapt in October 2024.

Business model: hybrid of DTC and institutional sales

Sales channels and customer mix[46:42]
• Catherine says they started with direct-to-consumer sales and are now about 40% DTC.
• Roughly 60% of sales come through long-term care homes, medical distribution centers, physio clinics, and hospitals.
• She believes this hybrid model allows them to serve the masses.

Main strategic question: focus vs. breadth across sectors

Concern about spreading too thin[47:16]
• Catherine asks whether serving many sectors (long-term care, rehab, infusion clinics) means they are spreading themselves too thin.
• She wonders if narrowing focus would help them scale or if staying diversified gives a competitive edge.

Guy and Randy's advice: start narrow, build institutional traction, and delay general retail

Guy's view: prioritize institutional channels now[47:10]
• Guy calls the idea a "no brainer" and praises the product as clearly inspired by her experience.
• He suggests focusing primarily on hospitals, care facilities, rehab centers, and infusion clinics where the need is immediate and obvious.
• He says broad retail (e.g., big sporting goods chains) may be better pursued in several years rather than now.
Branding and logo based on dignity and personal connection[48:40]
• Guy notes Adapt's distinctive logo resembling a fingerprint or thumbprint.
• Catherine explains it is her mother's thumbprint, reinforcing the personal and dignified nature of the brand.
• Guy says it looks like a brand that could become recognizable over time.
Randy's emphasis on early advocacy and avoiding premature retail[49:08]
• Randy stresses that Adapt is "brand spanking new" and needs to find early advocates who deeply understand and support the mission.
• He distinguishes between selling into retail and selling through retail, warning that failure to drive sell-through can damage relationships and brand prospects.
• He advises not to rush into retail, but instead learn from early customers in a forgiving environment and refine the product and positioning.

Confirmation of mission and closing encouragement

Validation of problem-first innovation[49:20]
• Randy praises Catherine's combination of deep domain expertise and passion as a powerful foundation.
• He notes that in his experience, the best-performing products start by solving a real problem, and that adaptive clothing addresses a clear need he hasn't seen met in hospitals.
Closing wishes[49:54]
• Guy and Randy both encourage Catherine, with Guy calling Adapt a great product and idea.

Closing reflections on entrepreneurship and Randy's retrospective advice to his younger self

Guy's reflection on constant innovation

Entrepreneurship across North America[50:04]
• Guy remarks that entrepreneurship is alive and well in North America, energized by hearing the callers' concepts.
• He notes that many innovative products are not necessarily cutting-edge tech but solve everyday problems for people.

Randy on problem-solving as the core of successful products

Problem-solution fit and speed of adoption[50:40]
• Randy says in his life experience, the things that do best are those that start by solving a problem.
• He adds that the more widely held the problem is, the faster the adoption and more meteoric the rise of the product.
• He believes Adapt Apparel is solving a real problem and has an early-mover advantage if they execute well.

Advice Randy would give to his younger self when building TRX

Pressure to chase massive valuations quickly[51:28]
• Randy recalls graduating from Stanford Business School in 2003, in the aftermath of the first dot-com bubble burst.
• He says he felt a false sense that if a business couldn't reach a $100 million valuation in three years, it wasn't worth pursuing.
Core advice: be patient and prioritize profitability[52:56]
• Randy would tell his younger self to be more patient and to get profitable as early as possible and stay profitable.
• He argues that even if a business dips slightly below profitability at times, going deeply unprofitable is much more dangerous.
• He believes that when operating profitably, the "clock ticks more slowly" and founders think more clearly.
Organic growth over artificially accelerated growth[52:40]
• Randy advises focusing on customers, aiming for organic growth instead of "nitrous oxide powered" growth fueled by unsustainable capital.
• He reiterates that his biggest advice would be to be patient, stay profitable, and make decisions from that position of strength.

Outro and reference to original TRX episode

Guy's recommendation to revisit Randy's original episode[53:04]
• Guy urges listeners to check out Randy's original How I Built This episode, promising it contains much more about TRX's journey, including fights with copycats.
Clip about early manufacturing problems at TRX[53:23]
• In a replayed clip, Randy describes how an early manufacturing partner lacked experience in making highly durable products.
• A large lot of inventory arrived when TRX was out of stock; when they tested the first unit, the handles "cracked like potato chips," revealing a serious product failure.
Final reminders about newsletter and call-in information[54:52]
• Guy closes by reminding listeners about his newsletter and reiterating how to submit their businesses and questions to the Advice Line.

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Achieving profitability early and striving to remain profitable gives founders more time, clearer thinking, and better leverage than chasing hyper-growth fueled by large amounts of outside capital.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in my business am I prioritizing rapid growth over reaching or maintaining profitability, and is that tradeoff truly necessary?
  • • How would my decision-making change if I assumed I needed to run this business profitably for the next three years without new funding?
  • • What specific cost reductions or revenue improvements could I implement in the next quarter to move closer to sustained profitability?
2

Big-box retail deals can be transformative but also existentially risky if you don't fully understand financing needs, return rights, and the challenge of driving sell-through rather than just sell-in.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What are the worst-case scenarios if a major retail partner underperforms or returns my product, and have I modeled them realistically?
  • • How can I validate demand and build a base of advocates before committing to a large purchase order with a national retailer?
  • • What terms (like return rights or payment timing) do I need to clarify and potentially negotiate before saying yes to any big retail opportunity?
3

At an early stage, tightly focusing on a clearly defined core customer segment and use case is usually more powerful than trying to appeal to everyone with limited resources.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Who is the single most important customer persona my product serves today, and what evidence supports that choice?
  • • How might my marketing, product features, and partnerships change if I optimized everything for just that core customer for the next 12-18 months?
  • • What current initiatives or audiences could I deliberately deprioritize to concentrate resources where they will have the greatest impact?
4

The quality of your strategic partners and investors depends less on their brand names and more on their specific, relevant operating experience and the time they can truly commit to your business.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What concrete operating experience do my current or prospective investors have in my exact business model or industry stage?
  • • How could bringing in a semi-retired or hands-on operator with equity compare to taking money from a larger but more distant investor?
  • • What questions and reference checks will I use to distinguish between investors who talk about synergies and those who have actually delivered them?
5

Products born from a real, personally felt problem-like lack of dignified adaptive clothing or safe portable training tools-often resonate deeply with underserved markets and can create strong early advocates.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What specific problem in my own life or my customers' lives does my product solve better than existing options?
  • • How can I more clearly tell the origin story of that problem and my solution to build emotional connection and trust with early adopters?
  • • Where can I find concentrated groups of people who experience this problem daily (clinics, communities, events) and turn them into my first advocates?

Episode Summary - Notes by Sawyer

Advice Line with Randy Hetrick of TRX
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