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Freakonomics Radio

651. The Ultimate Dance Partner

with Constance Hunter, Peter Frankopan, Anne N. Green, Mark Paul, Elizabeth Bortuzzo

Published October 31, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

This episode explores the past and present of horses, from their central role in ancient empires and industrial America to their modern status as high-value sport animals in disciplines like dressage. Economist-equestrians and historians explain how horses evolved from "living machines" that powered cities to luxury goods shaped by opaque markets, billionaires, and specialized breeding. The host then visits a New Jersey dressage barn to see training up close and even rides a high-level sport horse himself to experience the human-horse partnership.

Topics Covered

Equestrian sports Dressage Horse breeding Horse market transparency Wealth inequality Entrepreneurship War and empire Industrial history Horse racing industry Private equity

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • Modern horses in the U.S. are used mostly for recreation, competition, and racing, with only a minority still doing traditional work like farming and policing.
  • High-level sport horses, especially warmbloods used in dressage and jumping, are increasingly expensive luxury goods, with top animals selling for hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars.
  • The amateur equestrian world is heavily influenced by the billionaire class, which drives up prices and makes elite horses inaccessible to most riders.
  • Sport horse markets are fragmented and opaque, with many private deals, hidden commissions, and no central marketplace or standardized price information.
  • Historically, horses were critical to empire-building, warfare, trade, and urban industry, functioning as "living machines" that powered transport, factories, and city services.
  • Specialized breeding has transformed warmbloods from heavier, slower types into sensitive, highly athletic "world-class" equine athletes.
  • A small dressage business can survive by importing promising European horses, training them in the U.S., and reselling them, while keeping a few of the best for the owners to compete on.
  • Dressage requires extremely subtle non-verbal communication between horse and rider through seat, legs, and hands, creating a kind of "dance" that looks simple but demands years of training.
  • Professional riders like Elizabeth Bortuzzo spend long days in the saddle solving difficult behavioral and training problems, sometimes rehabilitating dangerous or injured horses into successful competitors.
  • Despite the risks and costs, riders and trainers describe an intense, almost symbiotic partnership with horses that keeps them devoted to the sport.

Podcast Notes

Introduction: From Chester Racecourse to the modern role of horses

Chester, England and its historic racecourse

Dubner describes visiting Chester and its Roman and medieval heritage[2:34]
• Chester was founded nearly 2,000 years ago as a Roman fortress; Roman walls still surround the city center in a rough rectangle.
• The city has a large cathedral with parts dating back nearly 1,000 years, which initially drew Dubner and colleagues there for a separate project on Handel's "Messiah."
Encountering the Chester Racecourse[3:13]
• Chester Racecourse dates back nearly 500 years and is described as the oldest continuously operating racecourse in the world.
• Dubner and colleagues visit on the first day of the summer racing season, seeing spectators atop the Roman walls for a free track view.
• The turf track sits on a long-silted-over riverbed; the day is gloriously sunny with grandstands and inner corporate suites.
• Men in the suites wear dapper suits; women wear colorful dresses and elaborate fascinators; between races they return to suites for champagne and food and then to the rail to watch.
Spectacle of horse racing and Dubner's two thoughts[5:19]
• Dubner describes the horses as 1,000+ pound animals running over 40 mph with jockeys around 115 pounds, including many Irish and quite a few female jockeys.
• In the parade ring, owners, trainers, and gamblers inspect horses, noticing intricate shaved designs on hindquarters highlighted by sweat.
• Thought 1: Watching large animals run so fast and rhythmically feels like a pure piece of analog entertainment, happening in real time with real people rather than digitally.
• Thought 2: The racetrack may now be the most likely place to see a horse, even though horses once served as core technology for transport, manufacturing, agriculture, warfare, companionship, and entertainment.

From peak horse technology to modern "equinomics"

Historical ubiquity of horses and decline[6:01]
• When Chester Racecourse was built, horses were one of the world's foremost technologies and used for transportation, manufacturing, agriculture, warfare, companionship, and racing.
• New technologies gradually took over most functions once filled by horses, but the species did not disappear.
• In the U.S. there used to be about 30 million horses; today there are still nearly 7 million.
Framing the series on horse markets[6:42]
• Dubner wonders who rides, breeds, trains, buys, and sells the roughly 7 million U.S. horses and what the horse markets look like.
• He jokingly calls this subject "equinomics" and says the show will explore these markets over several weeks.

Mapping the U.S. horse population and sport horse economics

Breakdown of U.S. horse sectors

Horse counts by use category[8:37]
• Approximately 3 million horses are in the recreation sector: personal use, lessons, trail rides, etc.
• About half a million horses are used for traditional jobs like farming, ranching, carriage pulling, and policing.
• Horses in these everyday categories typically sell for between a few hundred and a few thousand dollars.
• There are about a million racehorses in the U.S., which sell for much more (to be covered in a later episode), and another million-plus competition horses used for rodeo and Olympic-style equestrian events.

Introduction to the sport horse market with economist-equestrian Constance Hunter

Who is Constance Hunter?[9:00]
• Hunter is chief economist at the Economist Intelligence Unit and also an avid equestrian.
• She says a promising young sport horse sells for low six figures and that the amateur sport has been increasingly influenced by billionaires willing to spend $1-2 million on a well-trained horse for their children.
• She notes most sport horse sales are private transactions with no public record, creating an opaque market reminiscent of private equity deals.
Comparison to private equity and lack of transparency[10:15]
• Hunter likens horse buying for investment to private equity: buyers deploy capital to acquire an asset they believe they can improve and later sell for more.
• She says amateurs rarely ask detailed questions about purchase prices and prior costs, so norms of disclosure are weak.

Hunter's riding background and the hunter-jumper discipline

Her personal history with horses[10:11]
• Hunter grew up in Philadelphia; her parents never bought her a horse but did pay for riding lessons, and she was "hooked."
• She rode through high school and on the equestrian team at NYU, riding in Old Westbury, Long Island.
What is hunter-jumper competition?[11:07]
• Hunter-jumper courses are designed to mimic the hunt field; competitions often take place in a ring, sometimes on grass, with jumps evoking open-field hunt obstacles.
• Judging is officially about the horse, but performance depends heavily on rider quality; amateurs seek "push-button" horses that perform well even if the rider is imperfect.
• Amateurs and professionals often compete against each other in equestrian sports, more so than in many other sports.

Profiles of Hunter's two warmblood horses

Jasper de la Tour: the forgiving "baby"[12:12]
• Hunter shows a photo of Jasper de la Tour, describing him as athletic, beautiful, "scopey" (able to jump easily at her level), and forgiving of her mistakes.
• She says Jasper compensates if she is too early or too late to a jump and has a "how-can-I-help" attitude.
• Jasper is affectionate; he has learned to love ear scratches and lowers his head "like a dog" to request them.
Bolio's Cool Eric: the temperamental veteran[14:41]
• Hunter owns an older horse, Bolio's Cool Eric, who is 20 years old and still going strong with a big personality.
• If she has been away and then rides him into a ring, he may have a "temper tantrum"-rearing, spinning, bucking, and trying to crash her into walls.
• She realized that if he truly wanted to harm her, he already could have, which helps her stay calm during these episodes.

The nature of human-horse partnership

Horses as powerful yet cooperative prey animals[15:17]
• Hunter notes that horses are large, powerful animals yet allow humans to train them to do many things.
• She contrasts horses with dogs: dogs are predators who see humans as pack leaders who provide food; horses are prey animals for whom grass "never ran away," so they don't naturally need humans.
• Despite not needing us for survival, horses are often willing to partner with humans, which she finds remarkable.

Historical centrality of horses with historian Peter Frankopan

Frankopan's perspective on horses in global history

Role and importance of horses across civilizations[15:38]
• Peter Frankopan, professor of global history at Oxford, says it's hard to understand world civilizations from deep antiquity to the modern era without considering horses.
• He argues that you cannot understand empires and global connectivity without placing the horse high on the list of key factors.
Analogy to the potato's impact on Europe[16:36]
• Dubner references economist Nathan Nunn's paper on how the potato's high-calorie, tradable nature supercharged European development.
• Frankopan likes that paper and notes that easier calorie provision allowed people to leave fields and drove urbanization, paralleling how horses expanded human capacities.

Specific functions of horses in premodern societies

Speed, logistics, and military advantage[17:29]
• Horses move roughly ten times faster than humans, allowing faster shipment of goods and information.
• Fast mobility naturally connected to military uses: states used horses to gain competitive advantages over rivals.
Horses in the Silk Roads context[17:51]
• Frankopan's book "The Silk Roads" uses the term as shorthand for interconnected regions and flows of goods, people, and ideas; horses are embedded in those exchanges.

Ancient horse markets and status

Early horse trading and specialization[18:26]
• Two and a half millennia ago, there were markets for Arabian stallions; texts advised buyers not to be duped when purchasing horses.
• In ancient China, there was a state official called the "Director of the Studs" who managed breeding decisions, matched horses to riders, and oversaw different horse types for war, courier work, hunting, and coaches.
Horses as symbols of imperial power[18:59]
• The Tang dynasty is famous for terracotta animals, but the horse is portrayed as the "king" due to its link to military effectiveness and high status.
• Emperors in China wrote poems praising individual horses, and some were buried with statues of favorite horses.
• Tutankhamun was buried with six full working chariots ready to be harnessed to the best available horses, underscoring the animal's role even in the afterlife concept.

Horses in the Americas and the United States

Reintroduction of horses to the Americas[20:02]
• There were horses in North America about 20,000 years ago that died out, so pre-contact American societies developed without them.
• Lack of horses affected communication timescales and the speed of building infrastructure and empires.
• After Columbus (1492 onward), Europeans used horses as a decisive factor in conquering large American empires.
Indigenous adoption and geopolitical consequences[20:29]
• Indigenous groups like the Cherokee, Sioux, Navajo, and Apache quickly recognized the power of horses and integrated them into their cultures.
• Horses helped build powerful indigenous confederations, shaping U.S. westward expansion and raising questions about access to horses, technology, and military power.

Horses as industrial "living machines" with historian Anne N. Green

Peak horse population and urban reliance

Scale of horses in early 20th century America[21:31]
• Anne N. Green notes U.S. horse numbers peaked around 27-30 million circa 1910-1915.
• As a 19th-century American historian and author of "Horses at Work: Harnessing Power in Industrial America," she describes urban streets in the 1880s as "mobbed" with horses.
• Around 1900, Philadelphia had an estimated 500 horses per square mile.
Types of urban horse work[22:26]
• City streets featured horse-drawn streetcars, two-wheeled carts, heavy wagons, and horses moving goods in and out of factories, sometimes working inside factories.
• Two main "urban herds" existed: teaming horses for hauling (reflected in the Teamsters Union horse symbol) and streetcar horses owned in the hundreds by streetcar companies.
• Railroads and large department stores also owned many horses, particularly for delivery services.

Horse markets and early breeding concerns

Urban horse trade and classifications[24:08]
• Major horse markets operated in cities like New York and Chicago, with firms dealing in horse sales.
• Horses were classified both by weight/build and by job function.
Rise of formal breeds and the "Honda Civic" horse[24:22]
• In the late 19th century, concern with defined horse breeds increased, requiring paperwork and policing to maintain stud books.
• Green suggests most American horses were mid-sized, strong, all-purpose animals-"like a Honda Civic"-rather than highly specialized types.

Concept of horses as "living machines" and reasons for decline in cities

Horses in the energy and progress narrative[24:57]
• The phrase "living machines" (from Clay McShane and Joel Tarr's work) frames horses functionally, comparable to other energy sources in industrial systems.
• This framing helps historians move beyond a simplistic progress narrative that assumes people were just "waiting" for horses to be replaced by superior technologies.
Urban problems created by massive horse use[26:04]
• New York City once had an estimated 200,000 horses, contributing to major manure-related public health issues.
• Noise from horseshoes on cobblestones was described as deafening, providing further motivation to adopt cars, trucks, and electric streetcars.
The 1872 equine influenza outbreak[23:10]
• The "great epizootic" of 1872 began near Toronto and spread along transportation routes, incapacitating horses in major cities for several days.
• Although mortality was not very high, many horses were too sick to work, paralyzing city services and forcing people to harness themselves to fire engines during fires.

Modern sport horse breeds and markets with economist Mark Paul

Mark Paul's dual roles and early horse experiences

His academic focus on inequality[29:05]
• Mark Paul is an economics professor at Rutgers whose research focuses on the causes, consequences, and solutions to inequality in the United States.
• He criticizes "free markets" as a farce that have not delivered the promised freedom and opportunity.
Lifelong connection to horses[29:43]
• Paul grew up in Massachusetts; from age six he worked at a local horse farm mucking stalls in exchange for riding lessons.
• His parents eventually helped him and a best friend split the cost of their first horse bought at a cowboy auction for a few hundred dollars.
• That horse, an appendix quarter horse (a quarter horse cross), was gray, loved rolling in dirt, and was named Dusty.

Overview of major horse types: quarter horses, thoroughbreds, and warmbloods

Quarter horses: common and family-friendly[30:57]
• Quarter horses are the most prevalent U.S. breed, usually on the smaller side at around 15.2 hands (about 60-62 inches at the withers).
• Horses are measured in hands (about four inches per hand) from hoof to withers, not to the head.
• Quarter horses are widely used for western riding, reining, and working cattle farms; they are often the type seen on TV series like "Yellowstone."
• Paul compares quarter horses to golden retrievers: chill and family-friendly rather than prima donnas.
Thoroughbreds: racetrack sprinters[32:17]
• Thoroughbreds are bred to do one thing-run fast over short distances-and are leaner and more refined than quarter horses.
• They are central to the racing industry, with most bred in the U.S., particularly in Kentucky.
Warmbloods: modern sport horses[32:59]
• Warmbloods are crosses between hot-blooded breeds like thoroughbreds/Arabians and cold-blooded draft horses, used mainly as sport horses.
• Examples include Hanoverians, Oldenburgs, Dutch warmbloods, and Belgian warmbloods, many originating from Europe.
• Warmbloods commonly stand 16-17 hands (64-70 inches), sometimes even 18 hands; Paul jokes he needs a step ladder to brush one of his.
• Historically, warmbloods were heavier, slower, and more docile, with more draft blood, but breeding has shifted toward hotter, more sensitive, athletic horses.
• Paul says warmbloods have been turned into world-class athletes through modern horse breeding.

Dressage as a sport and luxury good

What is dressage and how widespread is it?

Military origins and modern form[34:54]
• Dressage is likened to "horse ballet" and traces back to European, especially French, military training designed to create a unified horse-soldier unit for battle.
• Today dressage is one of three Olympic equestrian disciplines, alongside jumping and eventing.
Participation statistics and growth[35:13]
• Paul estimates around 15,000 dressage riders in the U.S. and about 175,000 globally.
• The number of athletes and spectators has grown substantially over recent decades, aided by Olympic exposure and rising global wealth allowing more people to pursue expensive hobbies.

Dressage horses as luxury goods and Paul's internal tension

Luxury status and inequality concerns[36:11]
• Paul agrees that dressage and similar sport horses are generally luxury goods.
• He experiences tension between his research on inequality and his participation in a luxury sport, saying it's something that bothers him daily.
• He explains to students and children that we must navigate the gap between the ideal world we want and the world we actually live in.

Building a dressage horse business: Avo Dressage

Founding Avo Dressage and its goals

Why they started the business[36:47]
• Paul and professional rider Elizabeth Bortuzzo co-founded Avo Dressage about two years ago.
• Their main goal was to own, compete with, and develop world-class horses despite not having the six- or seven-figure funds typically needed to purchase them outright.
• The model: buy a horse, train and learn with it, then sell at a significant profit and repeat.
Roles and aspirations[37:45]
• Paul and Bortuzzo co-own the business and all horses; Elizabeth is the primary trainer and the one with serious Olympic ambitions.
• Paul hopes to compete at top international levels but is less focused on making the Olympics.

Avo Dressage operations: buying, importing, training, and selling

Scale and structure of their herd[38:44]
• They currently have about 15 horses; around seven are their personal team horses and the remainder are sale horses.
• Horses are typically purchased at ages 4-12; peak competitive years are roughly 12-16, with horses living on average about 30 years.
Importing and initial care[38:50]
• They usually buy in Europe-Germany and the Netherlands primarily, but also Norway, France, Portugal, and Spain.
• Imported horses fly to JFK, then go through a quarantine process before being transported to their farm in Frenchtown, New Jersey.
• At the farm, they acclimate the horses, ensure they are healthy and happy, then begin further dressage training.
Market positioning and the "dance partner" concept[39:34]
• Their goal is to advance each horse's education and career, then sell into the U.S. market, improving the quality of horses available for dressage.
• Paul describes their mission as helping riders find the right "dance partner" in a horse.

Market transparency problems and Avo's approach

Absence of a centralized, transparent marketplace[40:06]
• Dubner notes horse markets are nothing like stock markets, with no place where all buyers, sellers, and prices are aggregated.
• Paul says "there's no Zillow for horses" and calls this a huge problem and ripe business opportunity.
• Existing horse-sale websites are described as clunky, low-traffic, and not widely adopted.
Size of the horse economy[40:22]
• Paul estimates the global horse market at about $400 billion.
• The U.S. has approximately 6.7 million horses, with about $75 billion in annual GDP contribution, including all uses, not just sport horses.
Avo Dressage's transparency policies[41:08]
• On their website, Avo lists each horse with photos, videos, descriptions, and crucially, full sale prices.
• Paul says that for them, "the price is the price," in contrast to a broader industry where prices are often hidden and commissions undisclosed.
• Typical agent commissions are around 10%, but handled in ways that often obscure what the seller actually received versus what the buyer paid.
• He argues that these opaque practices inflate prices and reduce market transparency.

Price levels and segments in the sport horse market

Price variation and factors[42:04]
• Paul estimates the median U.S. dressage sport horse might cost around $40,000-$50,000, though he stresses the data are poor.
• Horse prices vary widely depending on training level, age, and potential-similar to used versus high-end cars.
• Older, minimally trained horses might cost $5,000-$10,000, while well-trained international-level horses can cost around $250,000 or more.
• Some one- or two-year-old horses command six figures based on perceived potential; prime competitors can reach six or seven figures.
Avo's three-tier pricing strategy[48:33]
• Segment 1: "young, up-and-coming" 4-5-year-olds for amateurs, typically sold around $60,000-$70,000.
• Segment 2: mid-training horses for amateurs, generally in the $100,000-$150,000 range.
• Segment 3: more international-quality horses priced roughly from $200,000 up to $600,000-$700,000.
• Paul emphasizes they aim for reasonable, not huge, markups and want to keep horses on the "affordable side of unaffordable."

Roles of agents and trainers in horse transactions

Agents' place and Avo's alternative[43:41]
• Typical agents function akin to used car or real estate agents: they may barely know a horse but market it via videos and charge about 10% commission.
• Sellers usually approach agents with big networks to represent horses, and agents may add value via photos, videos, and advertising.
• Avo does not use agents; they buy and own their horses, get to know them, and represent them directly to buyers.
Trainers' advisory roles and compensation[45:05]
• Avo's clients are split between adult amateurs (hobby riders) and professionals (athletes).
• Amateur buyers often bring their own trainers to evaluate whether a horse fits their needs and goals.
• Trainers typically expect compensation; Avo keeps horse prices fixed and transparent and lets clients handle separate trainer payments.
• Constance Hunter adds that good trainers provide significant value, noticing details amateurs miss and combining three scarce skills: teaching, riding, and horse selection.
• Because a top trainer can only ride so many horses per day, their expertise has built-in scarcity.
Typical trainer fees[46:55]
• Paul says trainers often charge $100-$150 per hour for lessons or horse training, with rates depending on reputation and experience.

Business scale and finances at Avo Dressage

Rapid growth in sales[50:57]
• When starting, Paul expected to import and sell 4-5 horses per year.
• In the most recent year discussed, they sold 33 horses and imported more than 40 from Europe, generating about $3 million in revenue.
Cost structure and ongoing expenses[51:18]
• Paul compares owning horses to maintaining a finicky sports car or boat, with constant costs.
• Average board at a competitive facility is roughly $1,200-$1,500 per month per horse, covering stall, turnout, and access to arenas.
• He and Bortuzzo fund their own operation, unlike many competitors backed by wealthy sponsors, so every horse technically has to be for sale until they reach more financial security.

On the ground at Avo Dressage: training, horses, and riding

Visiting the New Jersey farm and meeting Elizabeth Bortuzzo

Farm setting and Elizabeth's background[55:55]
• The farm is on New Jersey's Hunterdon Plateau; Dubner visits on a cool, cloudy June day.
• Professional rider and trainer Elizabeth Bortuzzo introduces herself; she rides, trains, teaches students, and competes professionally under the banner Evo Dressage.
• Evo stands for "amor vincit omnia"-Latin for "love conquers all."
• Bortuzzo grew up in northeastern Italy and begged her parents for a year to let her ride; after first getting on a fairly big horse at age seven, she never wanted to get off.
• There are about 20 horses in the barn the day of the visit.

Watching Cobus work in the dressage arena

Technical breakdown of a pirouette[57:44]
• Bortuzzo rides Cobus, a 10-year-old Dutch warmblood, and performs a left pirouette-a full 360-degree turn in place.
• Paul explains that the horse appears to slow because he takes smaller steps and shifts weight to the hind legs while maintaining rhythm.
• Bortuzzo uses her seat (a "half halt") by tightening core and lower back to ask for collection, right lower leg to bend the horse, and outside rein to guide the shoulders in the tight circle.
Seeing dressage in person vs on TV[58:16]
• Dubner admits that on television, dressage made the horse look confused, but in person he perceives rhythm, grace, and harmony between horse and rider.
• He observes Cobus doing an elevated trot with suspension in midair (passage), then returning to forward movement at Bortuzzo's cue.
• Paul notes that Cobus's sequence would likely score about 7.5 out of 10 at their current level.

Care, feeding, and energy efficiency of horses

Cobus's post-work routine[59:37]
• After training, Cobus is hosed down and fed a mix of beet pulp and alfalfa pellets (about seven quarts per meal, three times per day), plus unlimited hay.
Horses as relatively inefficient energy converters[1:00:05]
• Dubner notes that one reason horses were replaced by modern technologies is that they require a lot of food and water to produce modest amounts of usable energy compared to fossil fuels or electricity.

Elizabeth's work life, problem-solving, and risk

Making a living as a professional rider and problem horse specialist[1:00:20]
• Bortuzzo says she gets paid to keep horses in training; she is also known for solving difficult horse behavior issues.
• She characterizes this role as requiring "a lot of stupidity"-or bravery-because it involves riding horses others consider dangerous.
Example: rehabilitating a horse with a broken neck[1:00:55]
• She describes a student-imported horse whose neck had broken in two spots, likely from a rotational fall, making it highly reactive and unsafe to ride.
• The horse had caused several accidents and no one wanted to ride it; Bortuzzo took it on and, three years later, it competes successfully at Intermediare 1, the second international level.
Experience, workload, and injuries[1:02:09]
• Bortuzzo rides from about 7 a.m. to 8-10 p.m., averaging 25 horses per day, far more than most riders handle in a month.
• She emphasizes that thousands of hours in the saddle, feeling horses and getting feedback, enable her to solve problems and communicate effectively with them.
• She acknowledges being thrown and breaking multiple bones over her career and notes she wears a helmet, which Dubner calls a point of contention.

Mark Paul riding Vital Hit and competition context

Introducing Vital Hit[1:03:01]
• Vital Hit is a six-year-old chestnut warmblood bred in Scotland and purchased in Germany, with a white star on his forehead and no leg markings.
• He is one of the top-rated six-year-olds in the U.S.; Bortuzzo will be taking him to the Festival of Champions.
• Paul estimates Vital Hit weighs about 1,200 pounds but would like him to gain another 100-200 pounds to better match his tall frame.
Pricing and ownership philosophy[1:03:55]
• Vital Hit is considered a team horse and "not for sale," but Paul says that, in practice, any horse might be sold for the right price-he mentions $400,000 as a level at which they would consider selling Vital Hit.
• Unlike many top riders who have wealthy sponsors owning their horses, Paul and Bortuzzo own all of theirs, increasing financial pressure.
Training session and rider evaluation[1:05:35]
• Paul rides Vital Hit in the arena; in dressage competition, riders cannot verbally cue horses and must rely on seat, legs, hands, reins, and occasional whip.
• Bortuzzo says Paul is doing "wonderfully" and notes he is now a bronze, silver, and gold medalist in dressage.
• Dubner calls out "chin up, heels down" to Paul, who jokes he must work on "looking the part."
Competitive environment and self-funded status[1:06:08]
• Bortuzzo contrasts camaraderie levels: eventing riders are very group-oriented due to high risk, whereas dressage circles feel more standoffish.
• Dubner notes they are outliers because they're self-funded and train their own horses while competing against children of billionaires.
• She says she views competition as primarily competing against herself-a barometer of progress, horse well-being, and training direction.
• In addition to dressage, she has done eventing and still show-jumps for fun, partly to break the monotony of dressage work.
• Her life is like that of an athlete: exhausting. Once a year she takes a seven-day vacation, sleeping for the first three days.
• She humorously notes catching herself making horse-calming sounds while driving a car.

Dubner rides a high-level sport horse for the first time

Apprehension about riding and inherent risks

Personal reluctance and comparison to other risky sports[1:07:54]
• Dubner notes he grew up around farms and friends with horses but never really rode, partly due to fear.
• He recalls a father of a young equestrian describing the terror of watching his daughter compete, comparing it to mothers watching their sons in the NFL risk serious injury.
• He acknowledges horseback riding's inherent danger, including serious injuries and deaths.

Mounting and basic riding on Vital Hit

Getting on the horse and first impressions[1:09:33]
• At Bortuzzo's urging to "think less," Dubner mounts Vital Hit from the left side, holding both reins in one hand and using the other hand on the saddle pad.
• He is instructed to land in the saddle softly, adjust his reins and elbow position, and gently squeeze his heels to move forward.
• Dubner comments that the view from the saddle is fantastic as Vital Hit walks calmly under him.
Learning to steer, trot, and post[1:09:35]
• Bortuzzo coaches him to steer by moving both hands slightly in the desired direction; at one point Vital Hit reacts, but she reassures him everything is fine.
• She cues him to trot and encourages Dubner to "post" (rise and sit in rhythm), while he focuses mainly on hanging on.
• Dubner feels burning in his calves, which Bortuzzo explains as muscular effort in calves and inner thighs-muscles not much used elsewhere.
• To stop, she instructs him to press heels down and bring elbows back slightly, which halts the horse.

Reflections on the human-horse connection

Feeling unified with the horse[1:11:01]
• Dubner describes the experience as feeling "weirdly unified"-as if the horse knows what to do with him, which in turn makes him feel competent even though he is a novice.
• He calls this the natural symbiosis of humans and horses that has existed for thousands of years.
Height, warfare, and mounting tradition[1:11:37]
• He appreciates the elevated vantage point for seeing "barbarians at the gate," joking about needing a lance and sword.
• Bortuzzo notes riders traditionally mount from the left because soldiers wore swords on the left leg and needed that orientation to draw them.
• Dubner thanks his human hosts and especially the horse for the experience.

Preview of upcoming episode on thoroughbred racing economics

Teasers: stallion handling, jockey insight, gambling, and breeding

High-value stallions and risk[1:11:55]
• A future guest notes that stallion handlers work with horses worth $50-$100 million.
Jockey's view on horse personalities[1:12:13]
• A jockey remarks that horses, like people, vary-generous vs lazy-but differ in that horses never hide their true identity.
Gambling wins and breeder's comment[1:12:22]
• A gambler recalls turning a $7,500 bankroll into about $170,000 over two days.
• A Kentucky breeder-consignor says the thoroughbred horse world "is Freakonomics," hinting at economic complexity.

Closing and brief aside on steeplechase

Credits and final joke

Steeplechase comment[1:13:30]
• In a brief exchange after credits, someone asks what steeplechase is, and the answer given is that it's "this thing that crazy English people do."

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Opaque markets with fragmented information and hidden fees tend to inflate prices and disadvantage less-informed participants; making pricing and incentives transparent is a powerful way to create fairer, more efficient exchanges.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your work or life are you operating in a market or system where key information (like true costs, commissions, or quality) is obscured from you?
  • • How could you introduce clearer, upfront pricing and disclosure in a project you control to build more trust and reduce misunderstandings?
  • • What is one transaction you expect to make in the next month where you could ask more detailed questions about who is getting paid what and why?
2

Expertise that combines multiple scarce skills-like teaching, technical execution, and selection or judgment-creates significant value but is inherently hard to scale, so identifying and cultivating such combinations can be strategically advantageous.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In what area of your life or business do you already have two of the three key skills, and what would it take to build the missing one?
  • • How might you redesign your role so that you spend more time on the unique combination of skills that others find hardest to replicate?
  • • Who in your network exemplifies a rare blend of complementary skills, and what could you learn or borrow from the way they structure their work?
3

Long-term, intensive practice in a narrow domain-like riding 25 horses a day for years-builds pattern recognition and problem-solving ability that outsiders cannot easily perceive or imitate.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What domain of your life or career would benefit most from deliberately increasing your daily "repetition count" to build deeper intuition?
  • • How can you convert some of your current busywork into structured practice that directly reinforces the skills you most want to master?
  • • When was the last time you stuck with a difficult practice long enough to see your instincts noticeably improve, and what conditions made that possible?
4

Aligning a passion-driven, high-cost pursuit with a sustainable business model-like buying, training, and selling horses to finance competing on them-can turn an otherwise inaccessible goal into a viable path.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which of your passions currently feels financially out of reach, and what adjacent value-creating activities might support it?
  • • How could you design a small, low-risk experiment that uses your interest (e.g., in a hobby or sport) to provide a service others would pay for?
  • • What assumptions are you making about the cost of your goals that might change if you looked for ways to make the process itself economically productive?
5

Powerful tools and partners-like horses in past empires or modern technologies today-can fundamentally reshape what is possible, but they also bring new risks and dependencies that must be understood and managed.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What "powerful partner" (a technology, platform, or relationship) are you currently relying on without fully understanding its risks and tradeoffs?
  • • How might your strategy change if that partner suddenly became unavailable, and what redundancy or alternatives could you start building now?
  • • Where could you be underestimating the long-term societal or organizational consequences of a technology you treat as merely convenient?
6

Human-animal or human-tool partnerships work best when communication is subtle, consistent, and based on mutual feedback rather than force, a principle that also applies to leading teams and collaborating with people.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In your current collaborations, where are you relying on explicit commands instead of building the kind of shared cues and signals that make coordination smoother?
  • • How could you pay closer attention to nonverbal or indirect feedback from colleagues to adjust your approach in real time?
  • • What is one relationship-professional or personal-where you could experiment this week with giving smaller, more precise signals and listening more carefully to the response?

Episode Summary - Notes by Harper

651. The Ultimate Dance Partner
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