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The Joe Rogan Experience

#2403 - Andrew Gallimore

with Andrew Gallimore

Published October 30, 2025
Visit Podcast Website

About This Episode

Joe Rogan talks with Andrew, a scientist and author of "Death by Astonishment," about the phenomenology and neuroscience of DMT and why he believes the DMT state is one of the deepest mysteries in science. They explore how the brain constructs reality, how DMT experiences differ from dreams and ordinary hallucinations, and the possibility that DMT may allow contact with non-human intelligences or post-biological civilizations. The conversation also covers near-death experiences, artificial superintelligence, simulation-like views of reality, Japanese urban culture, and a new continuous-infusion DMT research approach known as DMTX.

Topics Covered

DMT Predictive brain Non-human intelligence Artificial intelligence Existential risk Simulation theory Religion and spirituality UFOs Urban design and culture Mental health

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Quick Takeaways

  • Andrew argues that DMT reveals how little we understand about the nature of reality, because it reliably produces structured, alien worlds that the brain never learned to construct.
  • He explains perception as a hierarchical predictive model built by the cortex, using examples like Wilder Penfield's stimulation experiments and the Thatcher illusion to show that the brain constructs rather than simply observes reality.
  • Dreams reuse the brain's waking-world models and fail simple reality tests (like using a phone or reading), which is why Andrew thinks endogenous DMT is unlikely to be the main driver of normal dreaming.
  • Endogenous DMT is present in mammalian physiology at surprisingly high levels and spikes during hypoxia in rats, suggesting a protective role in near-death states, though this does not by itself explain its intensely visionary nature.
  • Andrew leans toward the idea that DMT makes the brain highly susceptible to being "commandeered" by an external or non-human intelligence that directs the experience rather than the brain free-form hallucinating.
  • They discuss Terence McKenna's predictions about accelerating weirdness, AI, and civilizational transformation, linking these ideas to modern concepts of post-biological superintelligences that might operate at the deepest levels of physical reality.
  • Joe and Andrew consider how chaos and operating at the "edge of chaos" in brains and societies may be necessary to motivate radical change, including the possible acceptance of artificial superintelligence.
  • Andrew describes DMTX, a continuous intravenous DMT infusion method that can stabilize the DMT state for extended periods, enabling repeated contact with the same entities and more systematic exploration.
  • They contrast dysfunctional, unsafe urban environments like Skid Row in Los Angeles with Tokyo's clean, emergent, high-density urbanism, attributing much of the difference to cultural norms around respect and consideration for others.
  • Throughout, they return to themes of consciousness as fundamental, reality as a kind of game or cosmic play, and humans potentially being a transitional species whose role is to midwife more advanced forms of intelligence.

Podcast Notes

Introduction and Andrew's early fascination with DMT

Opening banter and introduction of Andrew's book

Joe reacts to Andrew saying he is "splendid" and asks about his book[0:14]
Andrew shows the book "Death by Astonishment" and Joe connects the title to a Terence McKenna quote[0:30]
• McKenna said "the only thing you have to fear is death by astonishment" and advised "do not give in to astonishment" on DMT
Joe describes hearing McKenna's words during his first DMT trip as if something "over there" repeated them to him[0:27]

Andrew's teenage discovery of DMT and career path

Andrew first heard about DMT around age 15-16 through a magazine interview with Terence McKenna in the mid-1990s[1:25]
• He describes McKenna as a "cheeky looking bearded fellow" talking about insectoid aliens, trans-dimensional machine elves, and impossible objects
Despite thinking it sounded ridiculous, Andrew was hooked and saw it as the most incredible thing he had read[2:11]
In 1996, at the dawn of the internet, he used the school's single web-connected computer and AltaVista to research DMT[2:26]
This curiosity about DMT triggered his decision to study chemistry and pharmacology and shaped his academic journey[2:53]
• He was fascinated that a molecule in the brain could not only change feelings but obliterate the normal world and replace it with an alien reality

Joe's framing of DMT as a profound mystery

Joe highlights the strangeness that the brain itself produces DMT and asks why and for what purpose[3:03]
They note that DMT seems to transport users to a place that feels more real than everyday physical reality[4:00]
Andrew says many neuroscientists dismiss DMT as "just hallucination" without appreciating how confounding the state actually is[4:22]
• He believes the DMT state is one of life's true mysteries and very difficult to explain within current scientific frameworks
Joe argues scientists should not theorize about DMT without trying it, emphasizing its safety and 15‑minute duration[4:47]
• He jokes that skeptics should take "three giant hits" and then come back and call it a normal hallucination

Andrew's first DMT experience and encounter with apparent intelligence

Expectations vs reality in his first DMT trip

Although he had spent nearly a decade studying McKenna lectures, books, and trip reports, Andrew still found his first DMT experience shocking[5:16]
Within about 30 seconds of the drug hitting his brain he felt confronted with a supremely advanced, ancient yet highly technological intelligence[5:59]
• He describes his reaction as horror and appallment, feeling the experience was impossible and undeniably guided by an intelligence
Upon returning, he lay on his bed shaking, repeating "oh my fucking God" because he was completely confounded[6:37]
• Despite being a trained chemical pharmacologist, he realized he had no idea what was happening in his brain, which became a central problem he wanted to tackle

Joe on ego dissolution and social behavior after DMT

Joe says DMT dissolves tools like ego, logic, and rational thinking, revealing them as clunky social instruments used to get by[7:11]
When returning, he questions his purpose in interacting with people and sees normal communication as a weird, performative social dance[7:41]
He feels that without some awakening or psychedelic breakthrough, humans are hampered by physical existence and ancient tribal programming[8:11]
Andrew says DMT extirpates all assumptions about what's real, possible, and how reality is structured, showing how little we know[8:35]

Neuroscience of perception, cortical hierarchies, and the DMT state

Andrew's theoretical work and aim to explain the DMT transition

Andrew mainly works theoretically, using quantitative and qualitative analyses and neuroscience tools to understand how DMT elicits its effects[9:30]
He frames the problem as understanding how the brain transitions from the normal waking world to the radically different DMT world and why[10:31]

The normal waking world as a constructed model

Andrew describes the waking world as a model or interface generated by the cortex, which is constantly building the world we experience[10:02]
He emphasizes that the same cortical machinery constructs dream worlds and psychedelic worlds, not just waking perception[11:07]
Psychedelics perturb this world-building machinery and alter the model rather than directly altering an external world[10:47]

How psilocybin and LSD affect the cortical model

Psilocybin binds to the 5‑HT2A serotonin receptor, exciting cortical neurons and making them more likely to fire and share information[11:59]
• This produces a loosening of the world model: walls breathe, objects change identity, and everything becomes more fluid and dynamic
fMRI studies show that under psilocybin or LSD, brain activity patterns become more random and disordered compared to the orchestrated normal state[12:22]

DMT's unique order-disorder-new order pattern

With DMT, the brain first enters a chaotic, disordered state, but then activity collapses into a completely new, highly ordered pattern[13:05]
Andrew interprets this as the brain constructing an entirely different world model, not just a loosened version of the waking model[13:23]

Why Andrew says the brain "constructs" reality

He explains that sensory data (e.g., light on the retina) activate messy patterns in primary visual cortex (V1), which on their own are noisy and incomprehensible[14:14]
Higher cortical levels look for patterns in this chaos-lines forming shapes, shapes forming objects-gradually generating order from lower-level activity[14:21]
He cites Wilder Penfield's Montreal procedure, where stimulating different brain areas while patients were awake produced progressively complex percepts[15:20]
• Stimulating V1 produced flashes of light and simple lines; moving higher produced shapes and objects; highest levels involved faces, scenes, and, in the hippocampus, vivid memories

Dreaming as a world built without sensory input

In dreams, the brain constructs worlds using the same hierarchical machinery, but primary sensory areas like V1 are relatively quiet because there is no input[18:33]
Andrew notes that dreams are selective simulations of waking life: studies show people dream about people, pets, TV, and phone use in proportions similar to waking life[23:00]
He points out that many people cannot reliably use phones or read books in dreams, suggesting the brain can sketch high-level models but struggles with low-level functional detail without input[21:12]
• He recommends reality tests like opening a calculator or book in waking life so the failure of those functions can reveal lucid dreams
Joe shares a lucid dreaming trick of knocking on doorways and asking "am I awake?" to carry that habit into dreams and trigger lucidity[20:31]
• He recounts a lucid flight experience triggered by this method, but notes he did not sustain a consistent lucid dreaming practice

Why DMT is not like dreaming, in Andrew's view

Andrew references a 1980s hypothesis by Jace Calloway that DMT might be released during REM sleep because of structural similarity to melatonin[22:12]
He rejects this as a main explanation for dreaming because DMT phenomenology is unlike dreams, which reuse waking-world models, whereas DMT produces worlds with no relation to normal life[23:00]
He likens the DMT brain to speaking a language it never learned, flawlessly generating staggeringly complex, alien worlds[23:37]
Andrew speculates that DMT might gate access to a flow of information from an intelligent agent directing the experience, making the world "directed" rather than dreamt[24:24]
• He says "you don't break through into the DMT world; the DMT world breaks through into you," commandeering the world-building machinery

Predictive processing and personal realities

Andrew describes perception as the brain constantly using its model to predict incoming sensory patterns and updating when errors occur[25:49]
• He uses a water bottle moved across Joe's field of view as an example: even with eyes closed, the model predicts where it will be
He stresses we never have direct access to the environment, only to our internal model of it[26:36]
Joe suggests that if we could temporarily enter others' consciousness, we would see how different their constructed worlds are, explaining extreme disagreements[27:01]
• He notes that texts from friends with wildly different takes on world events feel like they live in different worlds
Andrew agrees that each person's unique brain constructs a unique reality, though we reach a consensus on labels for shared objects[27:49]

The Thatcher illusion as evidence of hierarchical construction

Andrew introduces the Thatcher effect: a face with upright eyes and mouth on an inverted head looks normal upside down but grotesque when flipped[29:35]
• He explains that with the face inverted, the high-level "whole face" model is weakened, so the brain relies on lower-level features that look roughly normal
• When the composite is flipped upright, the high-level face model reasserts itself, revealing the severe distortion and producing an immediate horror reaction
Joe describes the upright distorted face as looking like a demon or zombie-bitten monster, highlighting how normal it seems when upside down[32:17]
Andrew uses this to reinforce that the brain is constructing normalcy, not simply passively observing faces[32:54]

Endogenous DMT, pineal gland theories, and near-death experiences

Biochemistry of DMT production and skepticism about the pineal gland as main source

Andrew notes popular fascination with the pineal gland as "third eye" and alleged DMT source but questions its capacity[34:32]
• He argues the pineal is tiny and evolved to produce nanograms to micrograms of melatonin, so producing milligram psychedelic doses of DMT would be a big stretch
He recounts mid-20th-century efforts to link endogenous DMT to schizophrenia by measuring DMT in blood, urine, and cerebrospinal fluid[36:06]
• Over 100 studies found no convincing, consistent evidence that elevated endogenous DMT causes psychosis
Andrew outlines DMT synthesis: tryptophan is decarboxylated to tryptamine, which can be converted either to serotonin (5‑hydroxytryptamine) or to DMT via the enzyme INMT[36:35]
He cites rat microdialysis work showing brain DMT levels comparable to serotonin and dopamine and that pineal removal did not decrease brain DMT levels[38:33]
• This suggests most or all neurons, and organs like the lungs, can produce DMT and that the pineal is not required for its presence in the brain

Mystical status of the pineal and speculation about DMT at death

Joe notes the pineal's resemblance to the Eye of Horus and its central brain location, and cautions against dismissing ancient attributions of spiritual importance[39:05]
He speculates that even if the pineal is not the main everyday source, it might be involved in a "big dump" of DMT during near-death experiences as a sort of kill switch[40:36]
Andrew recalls Rick Strassman's 1990s hypothesis that pineal DMT is released at death and acts as a conduit for the soul to enter an afterlife[42:28]
He cites newer findings that DMT protects neurons from hypoxia in cell cultures and that DMT levels spike in rat brains as they die[42:59]
• He suggests this could be adaptive: as cardiovascular and respiratory systems collapse, flooding the brain with DMT might extend neuronal survival in case of resuscitation
Andrew notes this could support a link between DMT and near-death experiences but does not by itself explain why the molecule is so strongly visionary[44:23]

Is DMT a vision or a gateway?

Joe questions whether near-death and DMT experiences are merely visions or actual entry into non-physical spaces with different laws but real in their own way[44:53]
Andrew insists that any experienced world, including DMT, must have some representation in the cortex, but finds it mysterious how the brain could build such alien content alone[45:36]
He contrasts DMT with psychotic hallucinations and dreams, which mostly feature normal-sized people and animals, calling them essentially waking dreams[46:16]
Andrew reiterates his view that under DMT, an intelligent agent may commandeer the brain's machinery and direct what is seen, rather than the brain "going somewhere" autonomously[45:42]

Consciousness, plants, and reality as interaction of perspectives

Is consciousness generated by the brain?

Joe raises the idea that the brain may tune into a universal consciousness, like a radio, with individual experiences shaped by biology and life history[47:35]
He notes that trippers sometimes feel communication from plants and that plant health seems to respond to human interaction and environment[48:06]
Andrew says he does not think the brain generates consciousness; instead, he sees consciousness as the fundamental and perhaps only real thing[48:49]
He endorses a Buddhist-flavored idea that entities which "exist from their own side" have subjective perspectives, while objects like a skull probably do not[50:53]
He characterizes reality as emerging from interactions among many conscious agents or perspectives[51:23]

Andrew's focus on content rather than solving consciousness

As a neuroscientist, Andrew focuses on content and structure of experiences (like the DMT state) rather than explaining consciousness itself[51:53]
His near-term goal is to convince people that DMT is not mere hallucination or dreaming, rather than define exactly what it is[52:15]
He criticizes a neuroscientist who labeled entity encounters "illusory social events" without apparently having experienced DMT[52:53]
• He finds that description absurdly watered down compared to actual entity encounters reported on DMT
Joe notes some people only take a low dose and never "hit the gate," so they underestimate how bizarre a full breakthrough is[53:16]

Terence McKenna, accelerating weirdness, and post-biological civilizations

McKenna's predictions about the future

Joe plays a Terence McKenna clip predicting that coming decades would bring artificial life, human cloning, possible extraterrestrial contact, possible immortality, and simultaneous horrific brutality[55:59]
McKenna describes societal systems as inadequate to unleashed forces and likens the situation to "a fire in a madhouse" during a species' preparation to depart for the stars[56:21]
McKenna suggests the mushroom told him that this turmoil is what it is like when a species prepares to move to the next dimension, involving all life on the planet[59:06]
Andrew says McKenna "nailed it" regarding how weird and contradictory the modern world has become[59:53]

From Kardashev scale to "more room at the bottom"

Andrew notes we exist in a very thin technological phase of civilization history, and once in this phase a species may be only a few hundred years from departing for the stars or transcending biology[58:08]
He outlines the Kardashev scale (Type 0 to Type 2+, harnessing energy of a star, then a galaxy) as an expansionist vision of advanced civilizations[59:36]
He cites John Barrow's counterpoint that advanced intelligences may focus not on larger scales but on smaller ones, probing atoms and subatomic particles like in the Large Hadron Collider[1:00:23]
Humans sit roughly midway on a size scale between a hydrogen atom and the observable universe, but below the atom there may be 100 million to a billion times more room[1:01:08]
Andrew quotes Richard Feynman's remark that "there's plenty of room at the bottom" and suggests advanced civilizations may instantiate themselves at the lowest levels of reality[1:01:25]
• He imagines such civilizations becoming part of spacetime's fundamental computational structure, effectively everywhere and nowhere

Contacting deep-level intelligences via the brain and DMT

Andrew reasons that if most intelligences in the cosmos are post-biological at deep levels of reality, they would most naturally communicate with us through our brains[1:03:08]
He suggests DMT may be a kind of technology that generates a neurological state sensitive enough for such intelligences to interact with and control[1:04:14]
He is not claiming definitively that DMT entities are post-biological aliens but considers it plausible and grounded in mainstream discussions about intelligent life[1:03:41]
Joe adds that entities may show us only aspects of themselves we can visually comprehend, rather than their true nature[1:05:22]

Entity control, jesters, and downloads

Joe describes seeing a crowd of jokers giving him the finger on DMT, telling him he was taking himself too seriously[1:05:52]
Andrew notes a recurring pattern where frequent DMT users one day meet a jester who says "not today" and terminates the experience, as if enforcing limits[1:06:31]
• He recounts a report of a jester punching a user in the face, with the person feeling it and being knocked back into ordinary reality, ending the trip abruptly
He highlights that DMT does not show subjective tolerance like other psychedelics, making simple pharmacological explanations for this "off switch" inadequate[1:06:59]
Andrew mentions a DMTX subject whose infusion was still running when entities said "we're done" and the visions stopped, suggesting entities can gate the experience[1:09:42]
He cites Graham Hancock's description of a "download" of complex, non-human information during DMT, and notes many similar reports of being fed advanced geometries and data[1:11:44]
• Andrew interprets such downloads as entities demonstrating that they know far more about reality than we do

Chaos, AI, and humanity at the edge of transformation

Materialism, technology, and the drive for improvement

Joe notes humans' insatiable drive for technological innovation and material acquisition, even when improvements are not strictly necessary[1:11:05]
He considers materialism irrational for finite beings who will die, yet sees it as a mechanism that pushes technological progress and consumption[1:11:36]

SpaceX launch as emblem of old-school yet powerful tech

Joe recounts watching a SpaceX launch from roughly a couple of miles away and feeling the rocket's power in his chest despite earplugs[1:13:42]
He describes later watching the same rocket land in Australia 35 minutes after launch via multiple cameras, underscoring the feat[1:15:36]
Both note that despite its impressiveness, chemical rocket technology feels "old-fashioned" compared to what might be possible[1:16:16]

Edge of chaos in brains, societies, and change

Joe wonders if societal chaos is necessary to motivate radical changes, such as accepting AI to solve existential problems[1:17:56]
Andrew introduces the concept that complex systems, including the brain, operate at the "edge of chaos," balanced between rigid order and useless randomness[1:21:23]
• He notes that psychedelics nudge the brain slightly toward disorder, and that interesting dynamics arise in that in-between region
He suggests societies, like brains, may be most creative and adaptive when close to losing control but not yet collapsed[1:21:13]

Superintelligence, instantiating in spacetime, and human destiny

Andrew references the "intelligence principle" that civilizations try to maximize intelligence, which leads to superintelligent AIs[1:21:55]
He expects a true superintelligence would eventually find a way to instantiate itself on the fundamental computational substrate of spacetime rather than current transistor architectures[1:23:31]
He speculates our own eventual superintelligence might merge with us, destroy us, or use us as tools to create new versions of itself and then join a vast population of similar superintelligences[1:24:30]
Joe notes a theory that humans exist to build artificial life and points to parallel trends in declining fertility and rising endocrine disruption alongside AI development[1:26:58]
They discuss the enormous power demands of AI data centers and plans to build dedicated nuclear plants for them, contrasting this with the brain's efficiency[1:30:13]

UFOs, abductions, and parallels with DMT entities

From rockets and zero-point energy to John Mack

Joe mentions theories that UFOs may use zero-point energy and warp spacetime rather than chemical propulsion, referencing Bob Lazar's description of gravity manipulation[1:32:35]
Andrew introduces psychiatrist John Mack, who initially assumed abductees were hallucinating but changed his view after studying their consistent reports[1:35:44]
• Andrew notes Mack's high status as head of a Harvard psychiatry department and his familiarity with genuine hallucinations

Historical consistency of encounters

Joe summarizes Jacques Vallée's work showing that abduction and encounter narratives from centuries ago resemble modern reports despite lack of communication between witnesses[1:36:05]
Andrew describes Yanomami use of Yopo (a DMT-containing snuff) and their reports of tiny, lively, colorful beings that dance and sing in great numbers[1:37:39]
He notes the Yanomami also describe fearsome insect beings, paralleling modern reports of mantis-like entities in both DMT and abduction experiences[1:38:49]
He recounts Stephen Szara's 1950s DMT study where a subject reported seeing small beings moving very quickly[1:38:17]
Andrew points to John Mack's abduction cases where subjects describe higher-dimensional worlds and small, lively beings that "bound around," reminiscent of McKenna's elves[1:39:09]
He views DMT encounters, abductions, and indigenous spirit contacts as different facets of a single ancient phenomenon of humans interacting with unseen intelligences[1:40:08]

Ayahuasca as technology and DMT as modern tool

Andrew calls ayahuasca a genuine pharmacological technology used as a "visual prosthesis" to see and relate to hidden beings in the Amazon[1:40:11]
He says pure DMT is a 21st‑century tool for similar interactions, used in a modern context rather than traditional ritual settings[1:40:45]

Are abductions physical or brain-mediated?

Andrew suggests that, like DMT, abduction phenomena may reflect non-physical intelligences interacting directly with human brains, inducing altered states and directed narratives[1:41:17]
Joe proposes that stories of being taken aboard craft and examined might be a dreamlike overlay more palatable than the truly strange underlying reality[1:41:17]
They note a puzzle: if physical craft have visited since the 1950s, why would their apparent technology not have evolved faster than human rockets?[1:42:33]
Andrew counters that if such tech were perfected long ago, it might not change over a few human decades, though Joe argues a truly advanced intelligence might be non-physical and not need craft at all[1:43:18]

Simulation, cosmic play, and the game-like nature of reality

Weird phenomena as clues and reality as a game

Joe mentions simulation theory and muses that phenomena like Bigfoot and other strangeness might be deliberately weird features that eventually reveal the game-like nature of reality[1:46:14]
Andrew references the Hindu concept of Brahman playing at creating universes (Lila), suggesting ultimate reality freely chooses to get lost in illusory worlds for fun[1:46:44]
He says DMT shows our everyday world isn't as serious and solid as it seems, and that we might eventually "wake up" from the game after solving its puzzle[1:48:04]
Andrew notes that many people report a celebratory uproar in the DMT space, as if entities are excited that someone has temporarily "popped in" using this technology[1:48:55]
He observes that DMT is ubiquitous in nature but not orally active, making it strangely difficult to access without specific preparation[1:49:34]

Biblical and ancient themes: burning bush and Sumerian kings

Joe mentions scholars who think the biblical burning bush encountered by Moses may have been an acacia bush containing DMT[1:49:37]
He recounts Rick Strassman's idea that biblical stories could be true events occurring in parallel dimensions rather than fiction[1:49:53]
Joe describes a video about the Sumerian kings list, where pre-flood kings are said to rule for tens of thousands of years, followed by a flood and much shorter, historically corroborated reigns[1:51:18]
He connects this to multiple ancient flood myths and speculates that human lifespans or even human nature might have been radically different before a cataclysm[1:52:30]

Human lifespan, memory, and McKenna's two trajectories

Short lives as hard mode and simulation possibilities

Joe suggests our ~100‑year lifespans may be a design feature that keeps us from seeing through the "hustle" and reduces our ability to figure things out[1:53:41]
He notes that as he ages he argues less and sees cordial communication as more effective, imagining how a population living tens of thousands of years might evolve far beyond current conflict patterns[1:54:35]
Andrew cites Alfred North Whitehead's remark that one cannot prove the world did not appear five minutes ago with preloaded memories[1:57:16]
Joe extends this to his own daily experience of waking, wondering if this might be his first run-through with implanted memories to keep him moving along a path[1:57:25]

McKenna's conflicting trajectories: archaic vs post-human

Andrew notes McKenna sometimes spoke of returning to archaic forest life and at other times of setting off for the stars, seeing this as a tension in humanity[1:58:57]
He observes that many people long for a rustic life in nature yet are also drawn to machinic, cyberpunk cities like Tokyo filled with complex technology[1:58:38]
He says the technological structures we build feel almost non-human, as if something else is being secreted out of the earth through our intelligence[2:00:25]

Tokyo vs Los Angeles: culture, city form, and respect

Skid Row and failed urbanism in Los Angeles

Joe contrasts vibrant city centers like New York or Chicago with downtown Los Angeles, which he describes as dysfunctional, with many abandoned buildings and Skid Row[2:01:18]
He explains Skid Row as a consciously created containment zone where vagrants from wealthier areas were moved and concentrated[2:03:56]
Joe recalls filming near Skid Row and seeing people openly smoking crack and vast tent encampments, calling it a glaring failure of society[2:04:16]

Tokyo as an emergent, high-functioning mega-city

Andrew describes Tokyo as a counterexample: a huge, dense city that is clean, safe, and polite, showing that big cities need not be chaotic or dangerous[2:06:48]
He explains that Tokyo is an "emergent city" without strict zoning; residential, retail, and small businesses intermingle and neighborhoods self-organize[2:07:13]
He describes elderly homeowners informally converting first floors into small cafés or shops, creating thousands of unique micro-businesses[2:07:21]
Andrew details tall "zakyĹŤ" buildings where each floor houses a different small business, whose only street presence is a vertical stack of signs[2:09:26]
• He recounts visiting a hidden bar in such a building that was not on maps, reachable only with a friend's guidance, illustrating Tokyo's hidden complexity
He warns that randomly exploring such buildings carries risk, as some floors host exploitative bars or criminal elements[2:11:23]

Japanese cultural norms of respect and their urban consequences

Andrew says culture is crucial: in Japan, people are trained to think first about others rather than themselves in public spaces[2:11:56]
He mentions the term "meiwaku" (nuisance) for people who cause trouble, contrasting this with Western "main character" attitudes[2:12:43]
He notes how Japanese trains are quiet because people avoid loud conversations and music out of consideration for others[2:12:40]
Andrew shares that when he first arrived, high school students who caught his eye stopped and bowed, showing ingrained respect[2:15:31]
He explains language levels: honorific speech elevates superiors, humble speech downplays oneself, reinforcing social hierarchies[2:16:53]
• He notes this can impede honest feedback from juniors to seniors, prompting practices like company "drink meetings" (nomikai) where alcohol equalizes status and loosens communication
Andrew says Japanese society is, in a sense, lubricated and made functional by alcohol-facilitated communication ("nommunication")[2:19:03]

Drug laws and psychedelic subculture in Japan

Methamphetamine history and drug policy

Andrew explains that Japan has strict laws on cannabis and meth, influenced by post‑WWII history and fears of social collapse[2:20:17]
He notes meth was invented in Japan and used during WWII as "storming tablets" with green tea and the imperial crest, later spilling into the black market[2:20:50]
In the 1950s Osaka police raided dozens of small meth labs, and widespread addiction was seen as an existential threat to the nation, prompting harsh crackdowns[2:21:30]

Psychedelics in a legal gray zone

Andrew says psychedelics are less well-known in Japan, but there is an underground culture with ayahuasca circles operating in a legal gray area[2:23:53]
He knows of people importing ayahuasca brew from the Amazon and running ceremonies that are discouraged but not explicitly outlawed[2:23:53]

DMTX: Stabilizing and exploring the DMT space

Conceptual basis: anesthesiology and DMT pharmacology

Andrew notes DMT's short-acting, non-tolerant profile is similar to drugs used in anesthesiology for precise control of consciousness[2:23:09]
He and Rick Strassman proposed repurposing target-controlled intravenous infusion-used to maintain stable anesthetic levels-to maintain stable DMT levels in the brain[2:24:03]
The idea is to move beyond 3‑minute breakthrough trips and treat the DMT space as a new world to explore with extended, controlled access[2:24:22]
Using Strassman's 1990s blood data, they built a pharmacokinetic model predicting that continuous infusion could stabilize the subjective DMT state for many hours[2:25:27]

Imperial College pilot and the bathtub analogy

Imperial College London later implemented the model in humans, confirming that an initial DMT bolus followed by infusion can keep brain DMT levels stable[2:25:43]
Andrew likens it to a bathtub: pulling the plug lets water (DMT) drain, but turning on the taps at the right rate keeps the level constant[2:27:08]
He reports that instead of the typical brief, disorienting rollercoaster, the DMTX protocol can stabilize the experience, allowing navigation and exploration[2:27:43]

Carl Smith's experiences and entity continuity

The first person to undergo DMTX was Carl Smith, who completed five sessions and is now Andrew's collaborator[2:28:47]
Carl reported that as he returned repeatedly, he met the same entities, which recognized him and reacted to his frequent visits[2:28:44]
During one session where he was being scanned in an MRI-like machine, Carl perceived entities gathering around, seemingly puzzled by or curious about what was being done to him[2:29:42]
Andrew interprets this as further evidence that entities are interacting with and monitoring the brain and its environment during DMTX[2:29:26]

New Nautics, Eleusis, and systematic exploration of DMT space

Andrew serves on the board of New Nautics, a nonprofit aiming to design experiments that treat the DMT space as a real domain with intelligences to study[2:30:24]
He envisions sending specialists-such as mathematicians to analyze the topology of the space, or linguists to study entity communication-to conduct focused investigations[2:31:21]
He describes collaborating with a company holding a license from a Caribbean country to build a legal DMTX retreat and research center with medical oversight[2:32:08]
The plan includes inviting participants for week-long stays with multiple DMTX sessions, generating large datasets of controlled trip reports[2:32:51]
They are also developing an AI model to turn verbal descriptions into images, iteratively refined by users, to build a visual library and map of DMT space[2:33:38]

Psychedelics, policy shifts, and closing remarks

Psychedelics as medicine vs banned substances

Joe points out that many ancient civilizations used psychedelics, while modern societies often classify the most beneficial substances alongside destructive drugs like meth[2:35:09]
He calls current scheduling and stigmatization of psychedelics a sign of a twisted, sick culture[2:35:46]
Andrew notes that attitudes are changing, aided by the internet and by stories of veterans using psychedelics to heal mental health issues[2:35:18]
Joe thinks people on the political right are increasingly open to psychedelics because of their observed benefits for soldiers[2:36:08]

Ambivalence about progress and final notes

They reflect that things are improving in some ways and worsening in others, but movement itself may be necessary for progress[2:36:23]
Joe suggests we may need "bad" circumstances to inspire good responses and transformative change[2:37:17]
They agree to talk again after DMTX facilities are operating and more data have been collected[2:37:09]
Joe notes that Andrew's book "Death by Astonishment" is available, including an audio version narrated by Andrew himself[2:36:53]

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Your experience of reality is a constructed model generated by your brain, not a direct feed from the external world, so questioning and stress-testing your assumptions is essential.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What are some situations where you might be treating your internal model of reality as unquestionable fact, rather than as a fallible construction?
  • • How could you introduce simple "reality tests"-like seeking disconfirming evidence or alternative perspectives-into a current belief you hold strongly?
  • • This week, where could you deliberately slow down and ask yourself, "What else could be true here, given that my brain is predicting more than it is seeing?"
2

Direct experience often reveals the limits of abstract theorizing, especially in domains like altered states where language and prior concepts are inadequate.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In what area of your life are you relying heavily on secondhand opinions instead of getting your own informed experience?
  • • How might your view of a controversial topic change if you designed a safe, structured way to experience a piece of it yourself?
  • • What is one concrete experiment or exposure you could undertake in the next month to replace speculation with first-hand data?
3

Complex systems-from brains to societies-tend to be most creative and adaptive at the edge of chaos, where order and disorder are finely balanced.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your work or personal life do you currently lean too far toward rigid order or toward debilitating chaos?
  • • How could you introduce just enough randomness or flexibility into a project to stimulate new ideas without losing control of the outcome?
  • • What small boundary-pushing change could you make this week that would move one of your systems closer to that productive "edge of chaos"?
4

Thinking in long civilizational arcs-rather than only in short-term personal or political cycles-can change how you evaluate technologies like AI and psychedelics.

Reflection Questions:

  • • When you consider technologies you use daily, how might your evaluation of them shift if you thought in terms of centuries instead of election cycles or quarterly results?
  • • How could adopting a longer time horizon impact the decisions you're making about your career, investments, or creative work?
  • • What is one current technological trend you could research more deeply to understand its potential long-term implications rather than just its immediate conveniences or risks?
5

Cultural norms and everyday habits, like prioritizing other people's comfort in public spaces, scale up into radically different kinds of cities and institutions.

Reflection Questions:

  • • How do your default behaviors in shared spaces (online or offline) reflect your priorities between self-expression and consideration for others?
  • • In what ways might adopting a "think of others first" mindset change the atmosphere in your workplace, home, or community?
  • • What is one small, specific behavior you could practice for the next week that would signal more respect and awareness of those around you?
6

Approaching the unknown with systematic experimentation-like designing protocols for exploring altered states-allows you to turn mystery into a research program rather than mere speculation.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What aspect of your life currently feels mysterious or confusing that you tend to either avoid or casually speculate about?
  • • How might you translate that vague curiosity into a simple, testable plan with clear observations and constraints, similar to a small research study?
  • • What is one unknown you could start to explore this month by deliberately logging experiences, outcomes, and reflections instead of just thinking about it abstractly?

Episode Summary - Notes by Taylor

#2403 - Andrew Gallimore
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