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The Joe Rogan Experience

#2392 - John Kiriakou

with John Kiriakou

Published October 10, 2025
Visit Podcast Website

About This Episode

Former CIA officer and whistleblower John Kiriakou describes his career in U.S. intelligence, including counterterrorism work, the capture of Abu Zubaydah, and his refusal to participate in the CIA's post‑9/11 torture program. He explains how he went public about torture, the subsequent federal investigation and prosecution that led to his imprisonment, and his experiences inside federal prison and reentering society. The conversation broadens into critiques of the "deep state," FBI entrapment tactics, propaganda laws, U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East and Ukraine, and the influence of Israel and AIPAC on American politics.

Topics Covered

CIA covert operations Government corruption Media trust and propaganda Prison system War and empire U.S. politics and elections Whistleblowers Israel-Palestine conflict Iran U.S.-China competition

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Quick Takeaways

  • John Kiriakou refused CIA training in "enhanced interrogation techniques," which he and some senior officials internally described as torture, and later became the only person imprisoned in connection with the CIA torture program-for speaking about it publicly.
  • He details specific techniques used by the CIA, including waterboarding, the "cold cell," and extreme sleep deprivation, and says multiple detainees were killed by these methods despite Justice Department authorizations not permitting death.
  • Kiriakou argues that traditional FBI rapport‑based interrogations were far more effective than torture in gaining actionable intelligence from high‑value detainees like Abu Zubaydah.
  • After an ABC News interview where he confirmed that torture was official U.S. policy approved by the president, the CIA filed a crimes report, and the Obama administration eventually charged him under espionage‑related statutes, driving him into bankruptcy before securing a plea deal.
  • He describes the federal bureaucracy and intelligence leadership as a de facto "deep state" that can outlast presidents, slow‑roll policies they dislike, and retaliate against internal dissenters.
  • Kiriakou recounts his time in a low‑medium security federal prison, including gang dynamics, attempted setups involving other inmates, and his protection by Italian organized crime prisoners.
  • Post‑release, he struggled to find even low‑wage work due to his felony record and turned to writing, advocacy, consulting, and academic teaching, including helping draft a European Union whistleblower protection law.
  • He criticizes the use of the Espionage Act against media sources, FBI sting operations and informant‑driven plots, and the NDAA provision that legalized U.S. government propaganda aimed at Americans.
  • The discussion touches on January 6th, Russiagate, and AIPAC, with Kiriakou asserting that law enforcement and intelligence agencies have been politicized and used against political opponents.
  • In foreign policy analysis, he expresses concern about Israel's leadership, possible escalation with Iran, and Chinese long‑term strategy, while predicting a negotiated outcome in the Russia‑Ukraine war.

Podcast Notes

Introduction and CIA background

Replacing Mike Baker in Athens and early CIA work

Joe notes that John replaced former guest Mike Baker in Athens[0:09]
• John says Mike Baker was a great guy, a good officer, and "the real deal" but doesn't talk much about his work
Security situation in Athens in the 1980s-90s[0:34]
• John says the American government spent more money on security in Athens than anywhere else, including Beirut
• Two dangerous indigenous Greek terrorist groups: Revolutionary Organization 17 November and Popular Revolutionary Struggle
• 17 November had killed the CIA station chief and the U.S. defense attaché
• Athens also hosted foreign groups like Abu Nidal, Libyans, PFLP, PFLP-GC, DFLP
• John describes an informal arrangement: as long as terrorists did not kill Greeks, the Greek government under Andreas Papandreou would largely leave them alone; Americans were not protected by that understanding

Post-9/11 counterterrorism and capture of Abu Zubaydah

John's role in Pakistan after 9/11

Tenure and responsibilities[1:55]
• By the time he got to Pakistan as head of counterterrorism operations after 9/11, John had been in the CIA almost 13 years
• He was responsible for all counterterrorism operations in Pakistan as Al-Qaeda fled from Afghanistan under U.S. bombing
Initial mission for captured Al-Qaeda members[2:20]
• His job was to find and grab Al-Qaeda members and then either hold them or send them to trial; initial planning focused on capturing big names like bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri
• They had already killed Mohammed Atif (Al-Qaeda military affairs chief) at Tora Bora
• Targets included Abu Zubaydah and an unknown figure later identified as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, plus those behind the African embassy bombings and the USS Cole bombing

Tracking and capturing Abu Zubaydah

Six-week operation and near misses[3:22]
• In February 2002 they got a lead on Abu Zubaydah and took six weeks to track him down
• John recalls raids where they were a day or two behind: finding half-eaten food and still-burning cigarettes
Turning him over and compartmentalization[3:39]
• After capture, headquarters told John to "hang on to him" until a plane arrived to take the prisoner; John was not cleared to know the destination
• On the plane, personnel with black hoods did not know who the prisoner was or why they were moving him; it was strictly "need to know"
• A hooded man recognized John and turned out to be a former boss; each jokingly told the other they lacked "need to know" about identity and destination
• John emphasizes the assembly-line nature of operations: his job was to catch and hand prisoners to the next person without knowing what came next

Birth of the CIA "enhanced interrogation" / torture program

First offer to be trained in enhanced interrogation techniques

Cafeteria conversation and moral objection[5:11]
• Back at CIA headquarters in May 2002, a senior Counterterrorism Center official casually asked John in the cafeteria if he wanted certification in "enhanced interrogation techniques"-a term John had never heard before
• The colleague described 10 techniques and said they would "start getting rough"; John replied that it sounded like a torture program
• The colleague insisted it was not torture, stating that the Justice Department had cleared it and the president had signed it
• John asked for an hour to think, then went to a very senior officer on the executive floor for advice
Senior officer confirms it is torture and predicts abuses[6:02]
• The senior officer bluntly called it a "torture program" and warned that torture is a slippery slope
• He predicted that someone would go "cowboy," kill a prisoner, and trigger congressional and Justice Department investigations and prison time for someone
• He asked John, "Do you want to go to prison?" and John answered no; later, John notes he was the only person who actually did go to prison
Refusal and career consequences[6:46]
• John returned downstairs and told the colleague he had moral and ethical problems, believed it was illegal, and did not want any part of it
• Despite having just captured Abu Zubaydah, whom they believed was number three in Al-Qaeda, John was passed over for promotion
• The Counterterrorism Center chief said in his promotion panel that John displayed a "shocking lack of commitment to counterterrorism" by turning down the training
• The senior officer who had advised him saw that he was not on the promotion list and promoted him "out of cycle," signaling internal division

Being labeled the "human rights guy" inside CIA

Psychiatrist's warning and internal resentment[7:37]
• A CIA psychiatrist who was also an army brigadier general and fellow church member told John that people called him "the hero" and "the human rights guy" behind his back and that it was not meant as a compliment
• John responded that colleagues were wrong and he was right, and that he was comfortable with his decision; he later realized how much his refusal angered others

Techniques and history of torture and drug experiments

Lack of formal CIA interrogation training and early improvisation

CIA vs FBI interrogation training[10:45]
• John notes that at that time the CIA had no formal interrogation classes, unlike the FBI whose classes could last years
• When they began capturing prisoners in Pakistan in January 2002, he had to cable headquarters asking what to ask; the response was, "You'll figure it out. Just go with it."
Good cop/bad cop with Pakistani intelligence[11:21]
• John arranged with the Pakistani intelligence service for him to play good cop and them bad cop during interrogations, with slaps and threats used by the Pakistanis to get basic information like names

Range of enhanced interrogation techniques

Non-torture vs torture in his view[12:04]
• He differentiates between less severe actions like grabbing someone by their lapels or a "belly slap" intended to make a loud sound and leave a handprint, which he does not consider torture
• He contrasts those with more extreme techniques such as waterboarding and other methods he considers worse than waterboarding
Cold cell and sleep deprivation[12:38]
• In the "cold cell," detainees were stripped naked, chained to an eye bolt in the ceiling so they could not sit or lie down, with the cell chilled to 50°F and a bucket of ice water thrown on them every hour
• John states that detainees were killed using the cold cell technique and that the Justice Department never authorized killing prisoners
• He says in later periods a doctor was always on scene; for example, Abu Zubaydah's heart stopped during waterboarding and a doctor revived him so he could be tortured more
• He compares such practices unfavorably to what "the Germans" did historically, implying war-crime-level behavior

MKUltra and drug experimentation legacy

Truth serums and lost documentation[13:46]
• John says that later the CIA experimented with drugs like truth serum and relaxation drugs such as gabapentin to get detainees to open up
• He recounts how the CIA got into major trouble in 1975-76 with congressional investigations (Church and Pike Committees) over MKUltra
• After Senator Church ordered that MKUltra documents not be destroyed, the CIA director went back and ordered destruction of everything; John says only about 20% of MKUltra documents still exist
• He notes that because of lost documentation, they do not really know what worked or failed in MKUltra, mentioning stories about dosing fog in San Francisco or bread in a French village
Operation Midnight Climax and Haight-Ashbury Free Clinic[16:01]
• He describes Operation Midnight Climax: CIA safe houses in San Francisco where sex workers brought men who were then dosed with LSD and interrogated without consent
• He criticizes dosing unwitting American citizens with LSD, saying "you can't just take people off the streets and force LSD down their throats"
• Joe mentions that the Haight-Ashbury Free Clinic was run by the CIA and connected to Charles Manson; John agrees, saying Manson was part of it and that connections were discovered through a document stash

Deep state, bureaucracy, and internal dissent on torture

Longevity of CIA officials and deep state concept

Unelected power centers that outlast presidents[17:02]
• John recalls meeting officials who had been at CIA for 40+ years, including a national intelligence officer for warning who needed an age waiver to keep working
• He says such long-timers openly believed they could outwait almost any president and would slow-roll directives they disliked until a president left office
• He affirms that there is a "deep state"-or at least a permanent federal bureaucracy-that is unelected and largely unaccountable and can ignore presidential wishes by waiting them out

Reading cables from black sites and other staff reacting

Executive assistant role and black site reports[18:58]
• After his promotion, John became executive assistant to the CIA Deputy Director for Operations, with access to everything the CIA was doing worldwide
• He read cables from secret sites where officers wrote things like "I didn't sign up for this" and "nobody said we're going to torture people; I quit"
• He mentions a secretary who fainted after witnessing torture of Abu Zubaydah and then "curtailed" her assignment-an act he calls career-ending
• Seeing others object convinced him he wasn't alone in thinking the program was illegal, yet no one spoke out publicly

Specific harms and ineffectiveness of torture vs FBI methods

Sleep deprivation and deaths

Rumsfeld's comments and medical data[21:17]
• John recounts that Donald Rumsfeld publicly claimed "there is no such thing as sleep deprivation" and compared it to his own long work hours
• He cites American Psychological Association information that people begin to lose their minds at day 7 without sleep and organs begin to fail at day 9, while CIA authorization allowed 12 days without sleep
• He says sleep deprivation, enforced with chaining to the ceiling, bright lights, and loud death metal music, caused prisoner deaths such as heart failure
Disposal of dead detainees[22:07]
• John describes dead prisoners being buried in unreported graves next to interrogation buildings, without reports back to headquarters
• In one case, headquarters responded to a death by telling officers to "put him on ice" until they decided what to do; after the body began to turn, they buried him

Claim that torture did not produce useful intelligence

Complimenting FBI interrogation expertise[22:36]
• John asserts that none of the CIA torture techniques were effective and calls it painful to have to compliment the FBI, which he says has been good at interrogations since Nuremberg

FBI's successful rapport-based interrogation of Abu Zubaydah

Ali Soufan's approach and early intelligence gains[24:05]
• Because 9/11 was still an open criminal investigation, the FBI initially had primacy over Abu Zubaydah at the secret site, which angered CIA leadership
• FBI agent Ali Soufan used standard techniques: repeated visits, offering coffee, fruit, or letting Abu Zubaydah write to his mother, eventually breaking weeks of silence
• Abu Zubaydah then provided detailed intelligence on Al-Qaeda cell structure, which John says saved lives-for example, identifying operatives in Düsseldorf with weapons and explosives access, leading to German arrests
• He also revealed that "Muhtar"-a key planner behind the thwarted 1996 Bojinka plot to bomb up to 14 Boeing 747s-was actually Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the first time that name surfaced in CIA files

Shift of primacy back to CIA and onset of torture

Tenet's request and FBI withdrawal[27:53]
• On August 1, 2002, George Tenet asked the president to give CIA primacy over Abu Zubaydah, for reasons John says have never been made clear
• FBI Director Robert Mueller, anticipating torture, not only withdrew FBI personnel from the black site but even from the host country
• Within 12 hours of FBI departure, CIA began torturing Abu Zubaydah, who then went completely silent
On-off pattern of FBI success and CIA torture[28:23]
• John describes a cycle: FBI methods produce intelligence, CIA torture shuts him down, FBI regains access and rebuilds rapport over months to get more intelligence, then CIA resumes torture and "screws it all up" again
• He cites torture episodes including putting Abu Zubaydah in a coffin, exploiting an irrational fear of bugs by pouring cockroaches on him, and long periods confined in the coffin with only intermittent diaper changes and food

Mitchell, Jessen, and the business of torture

SEER program reverse engineering and huge contract[30:12]
• John says CIA entered an October 2001 contract with psychologists James Mitchell and Bruce Jessen, who claimed to have reverse‑engineered the military's SERE program into harsh interrogation techniques
• Mitchell and Jessen were paid $108 million to design and oversee these methods, and John suggests sunk cost and desire for revenge helped drive adoption of torture despite lack of efficacy

Whistleblowing, media exposure, and federal retaliation

Leaving CIA and waiting for others to speak

Family reasons for departure[30:51]
• John left the CIA in part because of divorce and wanting to be closer to his young sons who moved to Ohio with his ex‑wife, hoping to see them on weekends via private sector work
• He says he waited for someone else to speak out about torture but nobody did

ABC News call and President Bush's denials

Accusation of torture and invitation to defend himself[32:01]
• In December 2007, ABC's Brian Ross told John he had a source claiming John tortured Abu Zubaydah; John denied it, saying he was the only person kind to Zubaydah and never laid a hand on any prisoner
• Ross invited him to come on air to defend himself; John, inexperienced with media, said he'd think about it
Bush publicly denies torture and blames potential "rogue officer"[32:48]
• John recalls President Bush responding to reports from the Red Cross, Human Rights Watch, and Amnesty International about CIA torture by insisting "we do not torture" in a press conference
• After repeated questions that week, Bush eventually said if torture existed it would be due to a "rogue CIA officer"; John concluded Brian Ross's source was at the White House and that he would be scapegoated

ABC interview and immediate CIA/FBI response

Three key public statements[34:28]
• John agreed to the ABC interview and decided to answer all questions truthfully; he then said the CIA was torturing its prisoners, that torture was official U.S. policy, and that it had been personally approved by the president
Crimes report and initial FBI investigation[34:55]
• Within 24 hours, CIA filed a "crimes report" with the FBI alleging John had revealed classified information
• The FBI investigated him from December 2007 to December 2008, then sent a declination letter saying they would not prosecute because the information was already public and torture is a crime that cannot be classified to hide it
• John and his wife went out to celebrate the declination

Obama administration, John Brennan, and renewed charges

Brennan's role and push for espionage charges[35:35]
• After Barack Obama took office, John Brennan-whom John describes as one of the "fathers of the torture program"-was first considered for CIA director then made Deputy National Security Advisor for Counterterrorism
• Brennan wrote to Attorney General Eric Holder urging espionage charges against John; Holder initially wrote back that his prosecutors did not think John had committed espionage, but Brennan replied "charge him anyway and make him defend himself"
• Ultimately John was charged with five felonies, including three counts of espionage; prosecutors later dropped the espionage counts after he went bankrupt
Perception that the system criminalizes everyone[36:54]
• John cites Harvey Silverglate's book "Three Felonies a Day," arguing that Americans are so overregulated they commit multiple felonies daily and can be targeted at will by authorities

History and personal feud with John Brennan

Brennan's career trajectory and patronage

Early career and firing by Martha Kessler[38:23]
• John sketches Brennan's rise from GS‑15 deputy group chief under respected analyst Martha Kessler to her deputy; Kessler later told Brennan he would never join the Senior Intelligence Service and fired him from her office
• Around Christmas, with few jobs available, Brennan secured a low‑ranking morning briefer slot on the President's Daily Brief (PDB) staff, briefing George Tenet, then an NSC staffer
• Brennan and Tenet bonded over cigars and socializing; when Tenet became CIA deputy director and then director, he brought Brennan back and made him Kessler's boss and eventually a top executive
Brennan's foreign postings and 9/11 visas[40:42]
• John notes Brennan had been an analyst with no operational experience before becoming station chief in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, a key post, where he approved visas for the 9/11 hijackers

Antagonistic relationship and "human rights guy" label

Daily dealings and mutual dislike[41:08]
• As executive assistant to the Deputy Director for Operations, John met with Brennan daily during the Iraq War and the post‑9/11 period; he says they did not like or respect each other
• John recalls legendary operations chief Jim Pavitt hating Brennan even more and mocking Brennan's ambition to head his own agency
• Brennan later headed a small analytic center (precursor to the National Counterterrorism Center), then joined the Obama campaign while many others joined the McCain or Clinton campaigns, which John says "saved" Brennan's career

The Japanese diplomat incident and FBI sting pivot to prosecuting John

Work on Senate Foreign Relations Committee and blocked investigations

Frustration under John Kerry[44:35]
• From 2009-2011, John served as senior investigator for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee under Senator John Kerry, who repeatedly killed investigations to avoid upsetting the White House while seeking to become Secretary of State
• Blocked topics included Afghanistan's heroin production, which John says was tied to CIA decisions, and the Dasht‑e‑Leili massacre, where about 2,000 Taliban were suffocated in containers after inadequate air holes

Attempted recruitment by Japanese diplomat and John's report

Lunch in Arabic and immediate reporting[46:03]
• A Japanese diplomat with poor English invited John to lunch; they conversed in Arabic about foreign elections and peace processes
• At the end of lunch, the diplomat suggested he would pay John for information if John stayed in government; John rebuked him and immediately reported the pitch to the Senate security officer, writing a memo that was sent to the FBI
FBI tasking John to meet the diplomat multiple times[46:33]
• FBI agents interviewed John and asked him to invite the diplomat to more lunches to clarify what information he wanted and how much he would pay, initially planning to sit nearby with an Arabic speaker but repeatedly canceling and asking for written memos instead
• John met the diplomat about five times, wrote detailed memos, and then the diplomat left for a deputy ambassador role in Cairo; John never saw him again

FBI "similar situation" call and surprise interrogation

Trip to Washington Field Office and sudden reveal[48:07]
• In January 2012, FBI called John saying they had a similar situation and needed his help; he went to the Washington Field Office for what he thought was a consultation
• Agents asked about his book clearance and something called the Sam Adams Project, then abruptly accused him of giving information to Guantanamo defense attorneys and told him they were raiding his house as they spoke
• John immediately invoked his right to counsel, which he says was the only thing preventing his arrest on the spot; he notes that Washington FBI favors Thursday arrests so defendants languish in jail over the weekend before arraignment
• He overheard Peter Strzok being told John had not really implicated himself, leading to John's release pending legal action

Plea negotiations, sentencing, and prison assignment

Facing decades and tactical pressure

Initial offer: 45 years[51:58]
• At a proffer meeting, DOJ offered John 45 years; he refused, saying he would not do "45 minutes" because he believed he had done nothing wrong
• A prosecutor told him to take the deal if he wanted to live to meet his grandchildren, which he recalls as a devastating moment that led him to contemplate suicide before his wife talked him out of it that night
Lowering offers and lawyer assessment[55:17]
• Over months, DOJ dropped its offers from 10 years to eight, then five; his lead attorney Plato Cacheris said he'd never seen prosecutors come down in time, interpreting it as evidence of a weak case
• They continued bargaining down to a "best and final" of 30 months, with an understanding John would serve 23 months

Legal context: Intelligence Identities Protection Act and lack of case law

Comparison to Sharon Scranage case[57:25]
• John was only the second American ever charged under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982; the first, CIA secretary Sharon Scranage, had revealed CIA officers and sources in Ghana during an affair, leading to executions; she received nine months in prison
• He contrasts his 45‑year exposure for exposing torture with Scranage's nine months for actions that led to deaths
Concerns about constitutionality and appeals[57:11]
• He and his wife found Harvard Law Review articles arguing the law was unconstitutional and a form of prior restraint, but absence of case law meant they could only challenge it post‑conviction after potentially decades in prison

Last-minute decision to accept the deal

Attorneys urge taking the plea[58:15]
• After a sleepless night leaning toward trial, John's attorneys arrived early; Cacheris called him a "stupid son of a bitch" and told him to take the deal, admitting his earlier optimism was to keep John's spirits up
• Other attorneys echoed the advice, saying they'd beg their own brother to take the deal and stressing that the case was about "mitigating damage," not justice, especially in the Eastern District of Virginia where juries skew toward security agencies
• With family pressure and expert jury advice that he had no chance at trial in that district, John accepted a plea for 30 months and ultimately served every day of 23 months

Prison designation change allegedly driven by Brennan

From minimum camp to low-medium FCI Loretto[1:00:15]
• At sentencing, the judge ordered John to a minimum security work camp; Bureau of Prisons paperwork instead placed him in the main low‑medium security Federal Correctional Institution at Loretto, Pennsylvania
• He later learned Brennan was allegedly so angry at the "shortness" of his sentence that he instructed officials to make John's time as difficult as possible
• Upon arrival, a guard warned him that anyone entering his cell uninvited was an act of aggression, immediately heightening his anxiety

Life inside a federal prison

Initial encounters and gang protection

Aryan approach and switch to Italians[1:01:46]
• Within 20 minutes of arriving at his unit, two heavily tattooed white inmates (one with a swastika neck tattoo, one with "fuck you" on eyelids) tested him with questions about being gay, a rat, or a child molester before inviting him to sit with Aryans in the cafeteria
• Later, a Bonanno family boss across the hall asked why he sat with "Nazi retards" and told him from that day he was with the Italians, who provided protection and camaraderie
• He credits inmate Mark Lanzalotti from Philadelphia with pre‑educating Italian inmates via a New York Times article about John's background, positioning CIA officers as distinct from "cop" FBI agents and leading Italians to welcome him

Psychological stress and breakdowns

Continuous stress and solitary confinement[1:05:36]
• John describes prison as like living in the Twilight Zone where relentless stress causes many inmates to mentally break down and end up in solitary, where they may "live or die" with minimal care

Letters from Loretto and exposure of abuses

Writing to supporters about a guard and a manufactured conflict[1:05:45]
• After six weeks he wrote "Letter from Loretto" to about 600 email subscribers, describing abusive behavior by a heavily tattooed female guard who called him "fuckface" instead of learning his name
• He also recounted an incident where officials told him that an Iraqi Kurdish inmate had been instructed by someone in Pakistan to kill him after their meeting, while telling that inmate that John had called Washington and been told to kill him-manufacturing mutual hostility
• The memo about that incident was later posted by his attorney on Huffington Post, triggering broad media coverage and interest from outlets like CNN, Time, and NPR
Confrontation with warden and backing him down[1:10:27]
• Called to the warden's office and threatened with solitary, John responded that he'd gone "nose to nose" with Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, and Iranians and would not fear the warden, adding that CNN would be waiting in the parking lot if he were punished
• He says he never spent a minute in solitary, implying the public scrutiny deterred retaliation

Alleged setups involving Taliban and terror inmates

Taliban spokesman encounter[1:12:27]
• An Afghan-American inmate told John the Taliban spokesman (from a New Jersey case) wanted to meet him; John declined, recalling a warning that authorities would try to add years by setting him up
• Later, the bearded spokesman approached John in the yard as a guard photographed them from the woods with a long camera lens; John refused to shake hands, threatened to knock him unconscious if touched, and the man was transferred four days later

Post-prison reentry, finances, and whistleblower advocacy

Anger, difficulty reentering life, and employment barriers

Unacknowledged trauma and job rejections[1:15:06]
• John says he emerged from prison very angry without fully realizing it; people suggested therapy or medication, but he initially saw himself as ready to fight politically
• He assumed he could step back into his life but found that impossible; despite advanced degrees and completed PhD coursework, he was rejected by employers including McDonald's, Safeway, Target, and Uber due to his felony record

Strategy to keep telling his story and eventual vindication

Advice from his then-wife and Senate torture report[1:17:49]
• His then‑wife advised him to keep sharing his side of the story, predicting that authorities would move on to other targets and his narrative would become the record
• Six weeks before his release, she called to say the Senate torture report had been released and proved everything he said was true; John McCain publicly stated that without John, Americans would not have known what CIA was doing in their name

Pension fight and failed legislative fix

McCain's attempt to restore his pension[1:19:20]
• John says the Obama administration confiscated his CIA pension after driving him into bankruptcy
• McCain worked with John's attorney on a tailored amendment to the 2016 National Defense Authorization Act specifying that anyone convicted under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act during October 1-31, 2012 would have their pension reinstated-a description unique to John
• McCain planned to slip it into the huge bill and shepherd it through conference, but illness and a brain tumor kept him off the conference committee, and the language was pulled; John says a presidential pardon is now the only way to fully rectify his situation

Making a living through writing, speaking, and consulting

Think tank stint and transition to self-employment[1:21:57]
• A small think tank (Institute for Policy Studies) gave him an office but required him to raise his own salary; he netted only about $20,000 in a year and concluded it was unsustainable
• He leaned into self‑employment: his first book hit #5 on the New York Times list; his second, written longhand in prison, won the PEN First Amendment Award and Forward Reviews Memoir of the Year
• He began writing a syndicated column, doing consulting, giving paid talks, and teaching as an adjunct professor at several universities
Greek citizenship and EU whistleblower law[1:23:41]
• As a Greek American, he received a call from the Greek ambassador immediately after his arrest asking how they could help; he requested and quickly obtained Greek citizenship
• After prison, the Greek government hired him to help draft a new whistleblower protection law, which passed parliament and was later adopted by the European Union after he testified in Brussels
• He says he still has nothing saved for retirement and expects to work until he dies because all his money went to attorneys

Political realignment, January 6, and FBI entrapment

Leaving the Democratic Party and aligning with populists

New alliances across ideological lines[1:25:39]
• John says he was a third-generation Democrat but left the party long ago, with Brennan's and Obama's actions confirming his decision
• He has found common cause with populist Republicans and some progressives on civil liberties, citing friendships with Tucker Carlson, Judge Napolitano, and agreement on some issues with Marjorie Taylor Greene, Thomas Massie, and Bernie Sanders

Critique of DOJ, FBI incentives, and overcriminalization

Career incentives to prosecute and harshly sentence[1:28:17]
• He argues FBI agents advance careers by making arrests, and assistant U.S. attorneys by prosecuting and seeking long sentences; thus, they have incentives to "make" cases, not decline them
• He references DOJ spending $6 million to put him in a low‑security prison for 23 months and questions whether society benefited from that expenditure

Entrapment-style plots: bridge plot, Whitmer, and January 6

Bridge bombing sting and informant-driven schemes[1:39:20]
• John describes the Route 82 bridge case near Cleveland: three drunk men were drawn into a plot by an FBI informant with explosives, resulting in long sentences for a plan he says originated with the government, not them
• They also discuss a case of a mentally challenged 19‑year‑old radicalized and given a fake bomb and phone, and the Michigan Governor Whitmer kidnapping plot where most participants were informants or assets
January 6 and agents provocateurs[1:40:20]
• Joe and John discuss January 6th, noting reports that many people on the Capitol grounds were working with or for federal agencies and that paid agents encouraged others to enter the Capitol
• John argues that some January 6 defendants deserve only minor penalties like fines for unauthorized entry, not decades in prison, and questions whether society benefits from long sentences that also deepen political division
• They criticize repeated media claims that January 6 rioters murdered police officers, noting that one officer died later of a heart attack and that the narrative persists despite lack of direct killing

Propaganda, NDAA, and AI/bot manipulation

Legalization of domestic propaganda via NDAA

Radio/TV Marti and FARA[1:58:00]
• John recounts that an Obama‑era NDAA change legalized U.S. government propaganda targeting Americans, stemming from a desire to avoid technical violations when Radio/TV Martí broadcasts to Cuba could be picked up in part of Florida
• He contrasts this with his own need to register as a foreign agent (FARA) for a small op‑ed contract with the Abu Dhabi Chamber of Commerce, arguing that organizations like AIPAC do similar or larger work without having to register

Social media, bots, and training AI models

Chinese and Israeli information operations[2:04:26]
• John and Joe discuss how China encourages online arguments and societal divisions, with John saying the Chinese have "perfected" such operations more than Russia, though Russia also engages in them
• John mentions a Reason Magazine story that Brad Parscale won a $6 million contract to train ChatGPT to be more pro‑Israel
False outputs from ChatGPT and potential targeting[2:10:01]
• John says that early versions of ChatGPT falsely stated he graduated from the University of Maryland and a peace studies program in Bruges, which he never attended, and contradicted him when he tried to correct it
• He also used ChatGPT to request scholarly terrorism articles for his University of Salamanca syllabus and found that every link it produced was fake, leading him to question its reliability and whether someone might be manipulating outputs related to him

Foreign policy analysis: Israel, Iran, China, Russia-Ukraine

Israel-Gaza war and Netanyahu's incentives

Ceasefire implications and weakening of Netanyahu[1:58:17]
• John comments on a newly announced ceasefire (relative to recording date), saying it strengthens Donald Trump politically and weakens Benjamin Netanyahu, whose decision to bomb Gaza he calls "too much"
• He notes huge Israeli protests against Netanyahu before October 7 and explains that Netanyahu has never won more than 27% of the vote, surviving via coalition politics
Corruption cases and desire to prolong war[2:03:11]
• Netanyahu is under indictment for corruption; John says Netanyahu has an interest in prolonging war because he can argue he is too busy prosecuting it to stand trial
• He says the Israeli system's proliferation of small parties makes stable majority government almost impossible, contrasting it with Greek reforms that give a seat bonus to the largest party
Greater Israel vision and West Bank settlements[2:05:17]
• John argues that some Israelis genuinely believe in "greater Israel" including the West Bank, Gaza, southern Lebanon, a strip of Syria, and, per a Netanyahu UN map, even the Sinai Peninsula
• He describes New Jersey and Toronto synagogues hosting real estate seminars where people sign up to claim houses in West Bank villages after Palestinians are displaced, citing a recent case of a Christian village cleared by settlers

Iran and potential Trump diplomacy

Analogy to Nixon and China[1:59:12]
• John notes that Richard Nixon, once very anti‑China, ultimately opened relations; he suggests similarly that Donald Trump might be the figure to make peace with Iran, possibly via a summit in Riyadh brokered by Mohammed bin Salman

China's patient strategy vs U.S. global posture

Outlasting U.S. and focusing on infrastructure[1:58:57]
• John cites a satirical Onion headline about China waiting for the U.S. to self‑destruct, using it to illustrate his view that China invests in high‑speed trains, infrastructure, and schools while the U.S. spends on 190 bases in 144 countries

Russia-Ukraine conflict and expected outcome

Letting the war "burn out" and role of diplomacy[2:28:13]
• Based on conversations with Russia specialists, John says Russians are winning and Ukrainians losing, and that Putin faces pressure from his military leadership to keep pushing
• He predicts the conflict will eventually lead to Ukraine ceding territory while gaining fast‑track EU membership and a U.S. designation as a major non‑NATO ally, similar to Australia or Japan

CIA domestic spying, JFK files, and conspiracies

Angleton-era domestic files and legal violations

Wall of files on Americans[1:51:07]
• John relays a story from an early boss who, while working under counterintelligence chief James Angleton, saw an entire wall of folders that turned out to be files on American citizens, despite laws forbidding CIA spying on Americans

JFK assassination secrecy

Lack of transparency decades later[1:49:55]
• They note it has been 62 years since the JFK assassination and the government is still withholding information, including from an administration that promised full CIA file release

Ongoing pardon efforts and current stance

Building support for a presidential pardon

Letters and endorsements[1:33:40]
• John is seeking a pardon and says Ronald Reagan's former deputy attorney general wrote a letter supporting it, signed by figures including Tucker Carlson, Judge Napolitano, Doug Deason, Sid Miller, and a former U.S. attorney from Utah
• A second letter includes signatories like Dr. Phil and Trump transition head Ken Higgian; former CIA Director John Ratcliffe told him CIA would not object to a pardon, and Tulsi Gabbard has issued a supportive statement
Risk of speaking out vs hope for justice[1:35:35]
• Asked if public criticism might hurt his pardon chances, John says he's told his detractors are dead or retired; he recounts an internal CIA slide labeling him "the insider threat" but says colleagues booed and called him a whistleblower, after which his image was removed in later trainings
• He concludes he "won" and Brennan lost, in the sense that his narrative has been largely vindicated while architects of torture are remembered for that role

Closing reflections on patriotism, intelligence work, and corruption

Need for non-corrupt intelligence agencies

Support for CIA's mission but opposition to politicization[2:17:38]
• John and Joe agree that intelligence agencies like the CIA are important for national security and should not be dismantled, but they stress the need to prevent corruption and politicization
• John distinguishes between a CIA focused on foreign threats and one used to influence domestic politics or retaliate against whistleblowers

Populism, leaks, and free speech under Trump vs Obama

Espionage Act prosecutions under Obama[2:20:33]
• John says the Espionage Act was written in 1970 and that between then and 2009 only three Americans were charged with espionage for speaking to the media, while Barack Obama charged eight such people
Feeling freer to speak under Trump-era politics[2:21:21]
• He says Donald Trump's election in an odd way freed him to speak more openly because the Obama/Biden administrations were more inclined to label unwelcome speech as prosecutable, whereas under Trump much more is openly discussed

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Refusing to participate in unethical or illegal practices may carry severe personal costs, but it preserves your integrity and can ultimately shape how history views both you and the system you resisted.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your own work or life do you feel subtle pressure to go along with something that violates your ethics or common sense?
  • • How would your future self look back on a decision you're wrestling with today if you chose principle over short-term safety or gain?
  • • What concrete step could you take this week to set a clear boundary around something you know is wrong, even if it risks backlash?
2

Large institutions often prioritize self-preservation over truth, using their power and legal tools to punish dissenters and protect reputations, so you must anticipate institutional retaliation when challenging them.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What powerful organizations or systems influence your life, and how might they react if you openly challenged their mistakes or abuses?
  • • How can you document, prepare, and build support in advance if you foresee needing to stand up to an institution?
  • • Who in your network could provide legal, financial, or emotional backing if you ever had to blow the whistle or push back against authority?
3

Effective questioning and negotiation rely more on rapport, patience, and respect than on coercion or force, even in high-stakes situations like interrogations.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In your current relationships or negotiations, where do you default to pressure instead of investing time in building trust?
  • • How might your outcomes change if you deliberately shifted from a confrontational style to a curiosity-and-respect-based approach in one key conversation?
  • • What is one specific technique (e.g., small consistent gestures, active listening, non-threatening questions) you could practice in your next difficult interaction?
4

Bureaucratic incentives-promotions, headlines, and metrics-can quietly distort justice, encouraging people to "make" cases, exaggerate threats, or accept entrapment rather than walk away from weak or unfair prosecutions.

Reflection Questions:

  • • How do the incentive structures in your organization subtly reward behavior that may not align with fairness or long-term value?
  • • Where have you seen colleagues chase metrics or wins at the expense of ethics or accuracy, and what did that teach you?
  • • What changes to goals, reviews, or rewards could you advocate for that would better align incentives with justice and integrity?
5

Narratives created by governments, media, and lobbying groups can be highly selective or misleading, so maintaining a skeptical, evidence-driven mindset is essential when evaluating any politically charged event.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What major current events have you mostly understood through headlines and soundbites, and how might that limited view be shaping your beliefs?
  • • How could you systematically seek out primary sources, dissenting experts, or original documents before forming a firm opinion on a controversial topic?
  • • Which one news story this month will you deliberately research in depth, comparing at least three different perspectives before you decide what you think?
6

If traditional career paths and institutions close their doors to you, you can still rebuild by leveraging your unique experience into writing, teaching, consulting, or other forms of self-employment.

Reflection Questions:

  • • If you lost your current job and field tomorrow, what skills, experiences, or stories could you turn into value for others on your own terms?
  • • How might diversifying your income streams now (through writing, teaching, or side projects) give you more resilience against institutional backlash later?
  • • What is one concrete experiment in self-employment or independent work you could start in the next 30 days to test your ability to generate value outside traditional employers?
7

Populist and establishment labels can obscure the real fault line, which often runs between those who believe power should answer to the public and those who believe the public should quietly trust "wise" elites.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Do your political loyalties align more with party labels or with deeper principles about accountability, transparency, and civil liberties?
  • • When have you found unexpected common ground with people you assumed were on the "other side," and what does that suggest about your real values?
  • • What issue could you choose to evaluate strictly on principle-ignoring party cues and media narratives-to practice independent judgment?

Episode Summary - Notes by Dakota

#2392 - John Kiriakou
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