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TED Talks Daily

The hidden cost of buying gold | Claudia Vega

with Claudia Vega

Published October 10, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

Rainforest toxicologist and TED Fellow Claudia Vega explains how artisanal gold mining in the Peruvian Amazon releases large amounts of mercury, causing severe environmental damage and public health risks locally and globally. She describes the mining process, mercury's toxic effects, and the massive deforestation in Madre de Dios, as well as her work establishing the first mercury lab in the Peruvian Amazon to generate local data for communities, policymakers, and international agreements. In conversation with TED Fellows Program Director Lily James Olds, she discusses working with indigenous communities, changing mining practices, the limits of "green" gold, the need for consumer awareness and traceability, and her fears about fake news and hope in small but real changes.

Topics Covered

Pollution Environmental justice Environmental restoration Sustainability Wildlife conservation Climate change Marine biology Misinformation and disinformation Gold investing Indigenous knowledge

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Quick Takeaways

  • Artisanal gold mining, which produces about 20% of the world's gold, is the largest human-caused source of mercury pollution and has devastated large areas of the Amazon rainforest.
  • Mercury used to extract gold is a persistent neurotoxin that travels through air and water, accumulates in fish, and poses serious health risks, especially to pregnant people and children.
  • In Madre de Dios alone, around 130,000 hectares of rainforest have been deforested by mining, leaving behind desert-like landscapes and contaminated ponds.
  • Claudia Vega helped establish the first mercury lab in the Peruvian Amazon to generate local data that informs communities, miners, and policymakers, and feeds into global efforts like the Minamata Convention.
  • Working directly with indigenous communities, her team shares test results, explains which fish are safer to eat, and is beginning to train local people to collect and interpret data themselves.
  • Changing mining practices requires not just new technology but behavior change, incentives, and peer examples, as mercury is seen by miners as a simple, efficient method.
  • Traceability of gold is extremely weak; once gold from different sources is melted together, it becomes nearly impossible to know whether it was produced legally or with mercury.
  • Claudia argues that "green" gold does not exist-only more or less responsible mining-and stresses that forests provide irreplaceable services like air and water that are more valuable than gold.
  • She worries that fake news slows environmental and health progress by distorting facts, but finds hope in the concrete life changes that accurate information can inspire in individuals and communities.

Podcast Notes

Introduction to episode and guest

Framing the global issue of mercury and gold

TED Fellows program introduces Claudia Vega[2:38]
• She is described as a rainforest toxicologist and TED Fellow working in the Peruvian Amazon rainforest
Connecting penguins, the Amazon, and gold[2:41]
• The introduction asks what penguins, the Amazon rainforest, and the gold in a listener's watch have in common, answering that the link is mercury
Overview of Claudia's work[3:40]
• Claudia runs a world-class lab in the middle of the Peruvian Amazon to study mercury pollution from illegal artisanal gold mining
• Her work is presented as highlighting an urgent environmental and public health problem with far-reaching impacts beyond the Amazon
Episode structure[2:58]
• Listeners are told they will first hear from Claudia and then a conversation between her and TED Fellows Program Director Lily James Olds

Claudia's monologue: love of nature and overview of mercury in artisanal gold mining

Personal connection to the forest

Childhood love of nature[3:32]
• Claudia says that since she was little she has always loved nature and the feeling of being in a forest
Forest value versus gold[3:38]
• She states that for her the forest is more valuable than gold

Claudia's role and region of work

Professional focus[3:38]
• She introduces herself as working in the Peruvian Amazon and studying mercury contamination due to artisanal gold mining in Madre de Dios
Hidden link between consumer gold and rainforest poisoning[3:51]
• Claudia believes people are often unaware that the gold they buy may be poisoning the Amazon rainforest or other tropical areas

Scale and nature of artisanal gold mining

Share of global gold production[3:58]
• She notes that about 20% of the gold produced in the world comes from artisanal gold mining, emphasizing that it is "not that small"
Meaning of "artisanal"[4:08]
• Claudia clarifies that "artisanal" in this context does not mean natural but refers to not using fancy equipment and relying on very rustic methods
Historical continuity of mercury use[4:24]
• She explains that people have used mercury for gold extraction since the Gold Rush in California and that the technique has not advanced much since then

Technical process of mercury-based gold extraction

Formation and burning of amalgam[4:41]
• Miners work with gold in sandy form in river sediments, add mercury, which binds with gold, forming an amalgam of gold and mercury
• They then burn the amalgam so that mercury evaporates into the air, leaving the gold behind
Mercury release into water and air[4:55]
• During mixing, some mercury goes directly into the river
• Mercury is easy to evaporate and can go into the air without needing to be heated, traveling long distances

Global scale of mercury pollution from artisanal gold mining

Main anthropogenic source[5:06]
• Claudia states that this process happens mainly in the tropics and is the biggest anthropogenic source of mercury on the planet
Annual mercury emissions[5:11]
• She cites a figure of around 1,400 tons of mercury released annually into the environment due to artisanal gold mining
Far-reaching environmental impact[5:24]
• The issue is presented as an international concern because mercury does not only harm the place where it is used
• She notes that there are very high levels of mercury even in beluga whales in the Arctic, illustrating long-distance transport

Deforestation and landscape change in Madre de Dios

Extent of deforestation[5:38]
• In Madre de Dios, she says about 130,000 hectares have been deforested because of artisanal gold mining
Visual appearance of mined areas[5:41]
• She describes big operations where huge areas of rainforest are deforested, leaving artificial mining ponds in a desert-like landscape
• There are no trees and no animals, and the area looks like the moon, with no vegetation

Health effects of mercury exposure

Mercury as an indestructible element and neurotoxin[6:04]
• Claudia emphasizes that mercury is an element that cannot be destroyed
• She calls mercury a potent neurotoxin that can affect the nervous system
Symptoms and developmental effects[6:33]
• Reported symptoms include headaches, memory problems, and insomnia
• Exposure during pregnancy can harm children, potentially leading to learning disabilities or malformations depending on the exposure level
Mercury as a "silent toxin" and Minamata Bay example[6:31]
• Mercury is called the silent toxin because it takes a long time for effects to appear
• She recounts the Minamata Bay case in Japan, where a company released mercury into the bay starting in 1932
• It took about 25 years for human health effects to manifest; about 1,000 people died and around 10,000 people have been certified as affected
• She notes that people did not know they were being intoxicated and only later developed symptoms and died
WHO classification[6:59]
• Claudia states that the World Health Organization lists mercury among the top 10 chemicals of major public health concern

Establishing a mercury lab in the Amazon and engaging stakeholders

Creation of the first mercury lab in the Peruvian Amazon

About the Amazonian Center for Scientific Innovation[7:19]
• Claudia works with the Centro de Innovación Científica Amazónica (Amazonian Center for Scientific Innovation)
• She explains they implemented the first mercury lab in the Peruvian Amazon, located in the middle of the rainforest
Mission of the center[7:19]
• The center produces scientific data and also communicates it to non-scientists so they can make better decisions

Working with miners, indigenous people, and politicians

Education and risk communication[7:24]
• They work with miners to explain the dangers of mercury
• They also work with indigenous people, explaining how they can avoid mercury exposure
Informing policymakers[7:33]
• Claudia notes they work with politicians so that decisions can be based on science

Mercury exposure through fish consumption

Diet of indigenous communities[7:41]
• Fish is described as the main source of protein for indigenous people in the Amazon
• These communities are exposed to very high mercury levels through eating contaminated fish and currently have some of the highest levels reported
Advising on safer fish choices and communication challenges[8:06]
• Her team explains which fish are safer to eat, though she notes it is sometimes difficult because they do not always have definitive answers
• She reflects on how it can feel for indigenous people when outsiders arrive and tell them that their traditional food is poison
• Despite the difficulty, she insists that information is power and that having the right information allows people to make better decisions, so they repeat and reinforce the messages

Engagement with miners and health framing

Discussing chronic exposure with miners[8:34]
• Some miners tell her they have been using mercury for 30 years and feel fine
• She responds by asking about sleep, headaches, forgetfulness, and mentions mercury increasing cardiovascular risk and high blood pressure
• She suggests that these health issues might be related to mercury exposure even if miners do not connect them
Varied responses and economic drivers[8:32]
• Some miners start changing toward more responsible mining methods after learning about the risks
• Others may know the risks but continue because they need money and "gold is money"

Lack of incentives and traceability in the gold trade

No incentive for mercury-free gold[9:08]
• Claudia says there is no incentive to produce mercury-free gold because people just buy gold without caring about its origin
Weak traceability systems[9:14]
• She states there is no good traceability system for gold, and urges consumers and intermediaries in the gold trade to care about where their gold comes from
Everything is connected and true value of the forest[9:36]
• Claudia remarks that people often use things without knowing their global impact
• She emphasizes the concept of "one health, one planet," where environmental harm affects animals and eventually human health
• Her dream is that people recognize the forest's value in producing air and water, which she considers more valuable than gold, noting that gold cannot be eaten, breathed, or drunk

Claudia's career path and motivation for applied science

Veterinary training and early work with wildlife

Studying veterinary medicine in Guatemala[13:05]
• Claudia confirms she is a veterinarian who studied in Guatemala
Preference for wildlife over pets[13:09]
• From the start of her veterinary studies, she wanted to work with wildlife rather than dogs and cats, which she saw as obligatory but not her desired focus
Work with trafficked wildlife and frustration[13:25]
• After graduating, she worked at a wildlife conservation center treating animals confiscated from trafficking
• She found it frustrating to constantly receive animals in bad shape and treat them without changing the underlying problem, as more animals kept arriving

Shift toward epidemiology and mercury research

Advice to study epidemiology[13:55]
• Another wildlife veterinarian advised her to study epidemiology to understand causes of diseases and damage
Master's in public health and environment[14:04]
• She pursued a master's in public health and environment, supervised by a marine biologist
Penguins in Rio de Janeiro and heavy metals[14:13]
• Her supervisor pointed out penguins appearing on Rio de Janeiro beaches in winter and proposed studying them
• They decided to study heavy metals-cadmium, lead, and mercury-in these penguins, which became her entry point into mercury research

Disillusionment with academic publishing and move to the Amazon

Questioning the impact of scientific papers[14:40]
• After finishing her PhD and conducting mercury studies in the Amazon, Claudia felt that publishing papers was not changing anything and considered "divorcing" science
• She began to question the purpose of science if it did not lead to change
Meeting the center's executive director and new role[14:57]
• At a mercury conference she met the executive director of the center where she now works
• He described an idea of producing scientific information tailored for decision-makers to effect real change
• They were starting the center and needed a mercury program coordinator, which led her to move to Madre de Dios in the Peruvian Amazon
Serendipitous focus on mercury[15:13]
• Claudia notes she was originally supposed to study a disease in primates for her master's but "found mercury" instead, attracted by the unexpected penguin project

Building local scientific capacity with a mercury lab in the Amazon

Why a lab in the rainforest matters

Logistical challenges before the lab existed[16:00]
• Before the lab, any sample that needed mercury analysis had to be sent to Lima or another country, which was difficult and time-consuming
• Just collecting samples already took time, and shipping them abroad complicated the process further
Benefits of local analytical capacity[17:25]
• Having analytical capacity on site where the problem occurs allows for faster answers
• Local capacity avoids the pattern of outside researchers who diagnose problems and then leave, without empowering affected communities
Empowering local communities through science[16:16]
• Claudia argues that places where problems are happening need their own capacity to produce information
• She believes that knowing how to produce information empowers people in local communities and helps create change

Impact of local research on public debate and policy

Increased local and national awareness[18:57]
• When she started, people knew little about mercury; now there is more information and people are talking about it
• She mentions that after releasing study results from the north Peruvian Amazon, their work stayed in the news for about one and a half months because people wanted to know more
Information as a prerequisite for solutions[18:17]
• Claudia stresses that if people do not know what is happening, they cannot look for solutions
Contribution to the Minamata Convention[18:45]
• She refers to the Minamata Convention, an international agreement to reduce mercury globally
• Their data are the first from places with artisanal gold mining in the region she mentions, because such data are hard to collect
• They are presenting results locally, nationally, and internationally, which she believes can drive change

Working with communities: communication, trust, and indigenous knowledge

Seeing information change individual lives

Example of a mother changing her child's diet[19:32]
• Claudia shares a case where an indigenous mother learned that her three-year-old, the child with the highest mercury level, preferred a fish species with the highest mercury content
• After being told that this fish was risky, Claudia advised her not to give it to the child even if he cried, and the mother understood and accepted the guidance
• Claudia sees such moments as potentially life-changing for individuals and as motivation to keep going despite the difficulty of the work

Building trust with communities and honoring commitments

Seeking consent and explaining studies[20:05]
• Before starting a study, her team visits a community one or two times to explain what they want to do and to ask if people are willing to participate
• They send a letter to the community leader and discuss the proposed work in person
Importance of follow-through[20:12]
• Claudia emphasizes that when she promises something-such as a date to return with results-she makes sure to do it
• Her team returns at the promised time, delivers results individually, explains them, and stays to answer questions
• Community members express gratitude and note that many outsiders come but do not bring results back

Learning from indigenous communities and co-production of knowledge

Emotional and ethical challenges of sharing bad news[21:35]
• Claudia recounts that when she presented worrying results, one person asked her, "So, doctor, what, now I die?"
• She reflects on how communities already face many problems, and she is adding another for them to worry about
Next step: training communities to collect data[22:29]
• She and her team are considering how to make a tangible difference by empowering communities to generate their own information
• They plan to train community members to do monitoring and create a system through which they can track and display results
Value of indigenous knowledge[22:45]
• Claudia notes that researchers often stay only about 10 days in a community and cannot observe everything, while local people know much more about their environment
• She wants science and indigenous people to work together, using indigenous knowledge and learning from each other

Alternatives to mercury and the challenge of changing mining practices

Technical alternatives: cyanide and other methods

Non-artisanal methods using cyanide[23:11]
• In non-artisanal operations, cyanide is used as an alternative to mercury, though it is also a dangerous substance
• She explains that mercury is an element that cannot be destroyed, whereas cyanide is a compound that can be broken down and its toxicity reduced
• Big companies can treat cyanide but require large amounts of water, big processing plants, and significant money and space
Mercury as the easy option for small-scale miners[24:21]
• For smaller or artisanal miners, mercury is an easy option because it does not require training
• There are other technologies such as shaking tables, but these require training and are more complex to use
• Claudia emphasizes that mercury is simple to use: you add it, form the amalgam, and burn it, echoing methods used since the California Gold Rush

Behavior change, incentives, and examples of better practice

Need to change habits and prove efficiency of alternatives[25:06]
• She acknowledges that some miners are trying alternative technologies, but stresses that technology alone is not enough; behaviors must change
• Miners believe mercury is the way they know and that it is efficient; to convince them, alternatives must be demonstrated as better and more efficient
• She notes that for miners "everything is money," so any new method must be shown to be financially worthwhile
Differences in miner organization and promising initiatives[25:38]
• In Madre de Dios, miners typically work separately
• In some other places, like Colombia, miners form small associations that can jointly own equipment such as shaking tables
• Claudia mentions a group of women miners trying to do things "the right thing" by avoiding mercury, adopting new technology, and implementing restoration after mining
Finding champions and peer influence[26:09]
• Her team looks for "champions"-miners who are trying to mine responsibly-to support and connect
• She observes that miners often say it is easier and cheaper to be illegal than legal, partly because legal status brings taxes and obligations while sale prices are similar
• Claudia believes that having miners speak to other miners about their experiences can be more persuasive than messages from outsiders like herself

Gold supply chain, consumer responsibility, and communication strategies

Roles along the gold supply chain

Producers, traders, and consumers[27:16]
• Claudia identifies different points in the chain that need attention: producers (miners), those who receive and trade gold, and final consumers
Certification and slow progress[27:24]
• She argues that traders should certify that gold is produced legally
• There are some initiatives to certify gold, but she says progress is slow
Gold flows and lack of awareness[27:44]
• Gold produced in the Amazon is mostly not consumed there; she notes that a lot of it passes through Switzerland and then to other places
• She believes consumers and intermediaries should ask where and how gold was produced
• Currently, she sees insufficient awareness and notes that some places buy gold without caring about its origin

Traceability challenges

Difficulty of tracing gold[27:52]
• Claudia says there is no effective way to trace gold at present
• If gold produced with mercury is mixed with gold produced cleanly and then melted, the resulting mix cannot be traced back to its original sources

Making distant environmental problems feel personal

Using human stories and familiar risks[28:56]
• When presenting, Claudia tries to make the problem feel like the audience's problem too
• With women audiences, she often starts with a famous picture from Minamata showing a mother holding a child with malformations due to mercury poisoning
• She explains that mercury can affect them personally, including framing that in the United States pregnant women are advised not to eat tuna because of mercury
Highlighting global connectivity of mercury pollution[29:52]
• Claudia emphasizes that mercury is present in all oceans and that everyone who eats fish can be exposed
• She warns that if mercury emissions continue, environmental levels will keep rising and could affect everyone, not just people in the Amazon

Government policy, regulation, and envisioning responsible mining

Peruvian government policies and enforcement gaps

Formalization process and its limits[29:54]
• Claudia says that currently in Peru, the government is trying to encourage artisanal gold mining through a formalization process to legalize miners
• This process started in 2001 and is still ongoing, but she considers it very ineffective at providing real oversight and supporting responsible miners
Laws versus enforcement[30:17]
• She argues that policy is not just about writing laws but about enforcing them and checking whether they are followed
• Claudia comments that in Latin America, governments like to write many laws, but these often remain on paper and are not applied
Lack of effective incentives[31:30]
• When asked about incentives that work, she answers that in Peru there are not really effective incentives to encourage better practices
Illegal mining affecting legal companies[30:54]
• She notes that illegal mining in Peru is so out of control that even legal mining companies are being affected
• These legal companies are also pushing the government to act, illustrating the depth of the problem

Imagining a sustainable and responsible mining future

Acknowledging the need for mining[30:54]
• Claudia states clearly that society needs mining-not only gold but all metal mining-because everyone uses metals
Rejecting the idea of "green" gold[31:18]
• She says that, in her view, "green mine" or "green gold" does not exist; instead, the realistic concept is "responsible mining"
• She points out that mining resources are finite and questions whether future generations, such as miners' children, will have access to them
Diversifying how communities benefit from forests[31:53]
• Claudia argues for finding other ways to benefit from the forest, such as studying plants to see if they can be used for valuable purposes
Respecting no-go areas and valuing forest services[32:06]
• She insists that mining should be done responsibly and that some places should not be mined even if they contain gold
• She knows miners who refrain from mining certain plots, despite knowing they contain gold, because they understand the need for forest
• Claudia reiterates that other aspects of the forest have value beyond gold and that for her, gold is not the most valuable thing in the forest

Claudia's fears and sources of hope

Fear of fake news and its impact on change

Fake news as a barrier[32:37]
• Claudia says she is really scared of fake news because it slows change by spreading incorrect information that people use to make decisions
• She emphasizes that everyone can be a victim of fake news
Learning from fake news dissemination tactics[33:00]
• When planning strategies for communication, she suggests that they should learn how fake news spreads information so effectively
• If they can learn to disseminate accurate information with similar effectiveness, she believes they may be able to compete with misinformation

Choosing to be part of the solution

Motivation in the face of complex problems[33:13]
• Claudia acknowledges that the problems are complex, but argues that if nothing is done, they will continue or worsen
• She believes that even small changes are worthwhile and preferable to inaction
• She says she would rather be part of the solution than part of the problem, which she cites as a source of hope

Closing credits and identification of Claudia as a TED Fellow

TED Fellows identification

Claudia's status within the TED Fellows program[34:11]
• The host states that Claudia Vega is a 2025 TED Fellow

Podcast production information

Show identity[36:01]
• Listeners are told that TED Talks Daily is part of the TED Audio Collective

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Building local scientific capacity where environmental problems occur empowers communities, speeds up data collection, and makes it more likely that evidence will inform real-world decisions.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your work or community are you relying on distant experts or infrastructure that could be more effective if some capacity were built locally?
  • • How might your decisions change if the people most affected by a problem were also the ones generating and interpreting the key data?
  • • What is one concrete step you could take this month to involve local stakeholders more directly in collecting or using information that guides your decisions?
2

Changing harmful practices requires more than better technology; it demands understanding incentives, addressing economic realities, and shifting deeply ingrained behaviors.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What entrenched habit or process in your organization persists not because it's best, but because it's familiar and perceived as "good enough" or cheap?
  • • How could you reframe or demonstrate an alternative so that its benefits are obvious in terms that matter-time, money, safety, or status-to the people who must adopt it?
  • • Which influential "champions" could you support or elevate to model the behavior change you want others to follow?
3

Clear, respectful communication-especially returning with results and actionable guidance-builds trust with communities and can turn abstract risks into life-changing decisions.

Reflection Questions:

  • • When you ask others for their time, data, or cooperation, how reliably do you circle back with outcomes or feedback that matter to them?
  • • In your current projects, where might people feel like "subjects" being studied rather than partners whose lives and choices you are helping to improve?
  • • What is one specific promise you can make-and keep-in the next few weeks that would strengthen trust with a key stakeholder group?
4

Consumer choices and supply-chain transparency have real upstream consequences; without traceability and demand for responsibility, harmful practices are economically rewarded.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which products or services you regularly use have significant upstream environmental or social impacts that you rarely think about?
  • • How might you change your purchasing or investment decisions if you had clearer information on origin, labor conditions, or environmental costs?
  • • What is one category-such as food, technology, or jewelry-where you could start asking suppliers better questions about sourcing and standards this year?
5

In an age of misinformation, learning to communicate truth as effectively as fake news spreads falsehood is essential for driving progress on complex issues.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where have you seen misinformation shape opinions or decisions in your field, and what made it so compelling or easy to believe?
  • • How could you make accurate information in your domain more vivid, relatable, and shareable without sacrificing nuance?
  • • What is one story, image, or analogy you could start using to help people viscerally grasp a risk or concept that currently feels distant or abstract?

Episode Summary - Notes by Spencer

The hidden cost of buying gold | Claudia Vega
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