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TED Talks Daily

Sunday Pick: Tech Solutions (#3): How one of China's biggest tech companies is tackling carbon removal (with Xu Hao)

with Xu Hao

Published November 30, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

Host Sherelle Dorsey talks with Dr. Xu Hao, Vice President of Sustainable Social Value at Tencent, about how the company is investing in and accelerating carbon removal and decarbonization technologies, particularly in hard-to-abate sectors like steel, cement, and chemicals. They examine the cost and scaling challenges these technologies face, the role of digital tools such as AI, data, and virtual power plants in improving efficiency and cutting emissions, and Tencent's own path toward carbon neutrality and net zero. The conversation also covers Tencent's use of video games for climate education and the need to pursue multiple climate solutions in the face of uncertainty about which technologies will ultimately dominate.

Topics Covered

Climate change Renewable energy and decarbonization Climate finance Artificial intelligence Data centers Sustainability Video game industry Manufacturing in China Entrepreneurship Carbon removal technologies

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Quick Takeaways

  • High costs remain the primary barrier preventing many carbon removal and decarbonization technologies from scaling from lab prototypes to industrial impact.
  • Tencent's CarbonX initiative is backing startups that convert captured CO2 into competitive products like cement, chemicals, and sustainable aviation fuel, even without strong carbon pricing.
  • Digital technologies, including AI, data, and cloud computing, can make industrial operations more granular and efficient, cutting resource use and emissions.
  • Concepts like virtual power plants use software and real-time optimization to match electricity generation and consumption, reducing the need for expensive physical storage.
  • Tencent has committed to carbon neutrality by 2030 and to pursue net zero beyond that, tying its own growth in digital energy use to new renewable capacity.
  • Dr. Xu argues that solving major sustainability problems will ultimately create business value, even if the payoff horizon is longer than typical tech investments.
  • Tencent is experimenting with embedding real climate challenges and ecosystem protection into its video games, engaging tens of millions of young players in climate action.
  • Hard-to-abate sectors such as steel, cement, and chemicals are beginning to see more viable low-carbon options, which may produce the next generation of climate tech "unicorns".
  • Because no one knows which technologies will win-from hydrogen to CCUS to potential fusion-Dr. Xu believes society must push multiple climate solutions forward simultaneously.

Podcast Notes

Episode introduction and climate tech miniseries context

Elise Hu introduces the Sunday Pick episode from the TED Audio Collective

Elise frames this as a special episode of another podcast within the TED Audio Collective, selected for TED Talks Daily listeners[2:02]
She explains that the episode comes from the TED Tech miniseries focusing on how technology can generate a greener and more equitable future[2:11]

Overview of the conversation topic and guests

Elise notes that the episode explores what video games and climate tech have in common[2:18]
She says host Sherelle Dorsey speaks with Xu Hao, who runs sustainability initiatives at Tencent[2:24]
• Tencent is described as one of China's largest technological companies, behind WeChat and the world's largest video game vendor, and now an emerging force in carbon removal
Elise previews that they will discuss the role mega corporations can play in the climate movement, where carbon technology currently stands, and how Tencent's video games are becoming a source of climate education[2:39]

Description of the TED Tech podcast

TED Tech is described as a show featuring talks and conversations exploring how technology impacts society in many ways[2:56]
Listeners are invited to listen to TED Tech for more insights and to learn about the TED Audio Collective[3:03]

Sherelle Dorsey sets the stage for climate solutions discussion

Host introduction and miniseries framing

Sherelle Dorsey introduces herself as the host and welcomes listeners to TED Tech, a podcast from TED[3:21]
She explains that this episode continues a special mini-series about climate solutions and technology for a greener, more equitable future[3:31]

TED Countdown Climate Summit context

Sherelle says the four-episode series brings conversations from TED's Countdown Climate Summit in Nairobi, Kenya[3:37]
She notes that the summit features some of the world's greatest visionaries sharing cutting-edge solutions to the climate crisis, which she calls the defining challenge of our time[3:43]

Framing the need for carbon removal and introducing Dr. Xu Hao

Why carbon removal is necessary

Sherelle shares a "sobering fact": even if the world halted all emissions today, existing atmospheric carbon would continue warming the planet for decades[3:59]
She explains that this is why attention is increasingly turning to carbon removal[4:12]

Introducing Dr. Xu Hao and Tencent's climate roles

Sherelle introduces Dr. Xu Hao as Vice President of Sustainable Social Value at Tencent[4:25]
• She describes Tencent as one of the world's leading companies and one of the world's largest technology firms, and the company behind WeChat with over a billion active users
In his role, Dr. Xu leads Tencent's carbon neutrality lab and directs CarbonX, the company's platform investing in breakthrough carbon removal and decarbonization technologies[4:35]
• She notes CarbonX focuses particularly on hard-to-abate sectors like cement, steel, and chemicals
Sherelle emphasizes that Tencent is not only working on reducing its own operational emissions but is also funding and accelerating early-stage, high-risk climate solutions[5:04]
• She describes Tencent's efforts as spanning lab, accelerator, and infrastructure tracks to move ideas from concept to commercialization

Key questions guiding the conversation

Sherelle says they will explore what it takes to push carbon removal technologies from promising prototypes to real-world impact[5:20]
She poses the question of why a company like Tencent, better known for social platforms and gaming than heavy industry, is so invested in carbon removal[5:31]
She asks more broadly what role tech giants have to play in the global climate movement[5:38]

Main interview: Cost and scale challenges for carbon removal

Opening exchange and focus on hard-to-abate industries

Sherelle welcomes Dr. Xu and thanks him for joining the conversation[7:56]
She notes that CarbonX specifically focuses on hard-to-abate industries and technologies like Carbon Capture Utilization Storage (CCUS)[7:58]

Biggest challenge for carbon removal technologies

Sherelle asks what single biggest misconception or challenge needs to be overcome for carbon removal technologies to achieve widespread adoption and significantly impact global emissions[8:21]
Dr. Xu says the main challenge is that these technologies are too costly today[8:28]
• He argues that pushing the technology forward is necessary so costs can be reduced and solutions can scale, allowing them to play a big role in decarbonization

From lab-scale research to industrial impact

Dr. Xu observes that many technologies are moving out of research institutes and labs into startups or being integrated into existing hard-to-abate sectors[8:51]
He contrasts lab work, which might deal with kilograms or tens of kilograms, with industrial operations that handle thousands, tens of thousands, or millions of tons[9:06]
He says that when technologies operate at those industrial scales, they can make a material impact on industry decarbonization[8:55]

Avoiding technology lock-in in heavy industry

Dr. Xu stresses the importance of having decarbonization options available so that industries can choose lower-carbon pathways[9:31]
He warns of a "technology locked-in" effect where, if companies choose a higher-carbon technological pathway and build plants, those plants remain for 15 to 30 years[9:33]
• He notes that in such cases, the emissions associated with those plants are essentially locked in for their lifetimes

CarbonX initiative and carbon utilization startups

Findings from the first CarbonX cohort

Sherelle asks for examples from one of CarbonX's winning cohorts that embody "tech for good" and scalable innovation[10:00]
Dr. Xu says that when they launched the first round of CarbonX, they found that most winning startups in China focused on carbon utilization[10:13]

Why carbon utilization is prominent in China

Dr. Xu explains that one reason is the lack of comprehensive carbon pricing across the Chinese economy[10:13]
• He notes that China has a carbon market, but it currently covers only part of the economy, although it is expanding
He identifies another challenge: carbon utilization has complicated MRV (measurement, reporting, and verification) issues[10:55]
• He gives the example that calculating how much carbon abatement results from using one ton of CO2 from a chimney is technically complex

Competing without carbon pricing support

Because of limited carbon pricing, Dr. Xu says these startups must compete head-to-head with fossil fuel alternatives[11:11]
• He lists applications such as making plastics, calcium carbonate, and building materials like cement, where carbon-utilization products must match or beat fossil-based products on cost
Despite this tough environment, he says more startups than expected can already compete with fossil fuel alternatives on cost[11:26]

Examples of viable carbon-utilization products

Dr. Xu mentions startups making cement using steel slag and CO2 at similar or lower cost than fossil-based cement[11:44]
He says others can make organic materials and chemicals from CO2 cheaper than traditional fossil-based processes[11:53]
He notes that sustainable aviation fuel is still more expensive today but that they see a viable path to reduce costs so it can become competitive[12:02]
• He suggests that once such products reach cost parity, a carbon price might not even be necessary for them to succeed

Positioning these startups as the next wave after renewables

Dr. Xu compares this emerging wave of technologies to earlier low-carbon breakthroughs like electric vehicles, lithium batteries, solar, and wind that now compete directly with fossil fuels[12:20]
He argues that waves of emerging low-carbon technologies can continually push the decarbonization agenda forward[12:38]
Sherelle responds that his enthusiasm is encouraging, especially given how distant solutions have seemed in the past[12:48]

Digital technology, AI, and virtual power plants for decarbonization

Contrasting physical and digital low-carbon technologies

Sherelle asks how Tencent can leverage its strengths in AI, data, and cloud computing to advance carbon removal and emissions reductions[13:06]
Dr. Xu says that so far they have talked a lot about physical low-carbon technologies, but as a technology company, the other half is digital technology[13:23]

Using digital tools to improve efficiency and cut emissions

Dr. Xu explains that Tencent's approach is to leverage digital technology either to help sectors become more effective and efficient or to do things that are impossible without digital tools[13:28]
• He notes that in many cases, greater efficiency aligns with lower carbon because energy is a large share of operating costs
He says digital technology improves the ability to manage operations at a very granular level and at high speed[13:50]
• For example, operators in a plant with digital capabilities can make adjustments in split seconds, and with AI and machine learning, future plants could run with very granular control
Dr. Xu describes the goal as "resource-productive operations" where plants produce the same output with much less resource input[14:34]

Virtual power plants as a case study of digital decarbonization

Dr. Xu introduces the concept of a virtual power plant as another major area of innovation[14:48]
He explains that with more renewable energy on the grid, flexibility becomes a scarce resource[14:52]
• Traditional flexibility comes from batteries or other energy storage, but these require large capital expenditures
He says virtual power plants use digital tools to more precisely match electricity generation and consumption, thereby reducing the need for physical batteries[14:48]
• He describes the "virtual" aspect as influencing users to consume less when the system needs generation and to consume more when the system has surplus, effectively acting like generation or load on demand
Dr. Xu emphasizes that virtual power plants rely on large amounts of data, optimization, and split-second reactions, making them impossible to run manually and only feasible through digital technology[15:41]

Balancing digital growth with its own energy footprint

Dr. Xu acknowledges that digital technology development leads to more data centers and higher electricity consumption[15:35]
He says the solution is already known: use more renewables to power this growth[15:21]
• He describes Tencent's policy that any additional energy used will be from renewables, and any renewable energy they secure will support additional renewable projects
• This approach aims both to advance Tencent's own decarbonization and to increase renewable capacity on the grid
Sherelle notes that this is important given concerns about emissions and energy use of data centers and their physical and social impacts[16:05]

Corporate role and business case for climate action

Why corporations like Tencent engage in the climate movement

Sherelle asks what role corporations like Tencent should have in the climate movement, regardless of their business model or products[17:08]
Dr. Xu outlines a simple logic: solutions that address large social or sustainability problems will, in the long run, generate business value[17:28]
• He notes that Tencent started as a social network, which at the time addressed a social issue by connecting people more efficiently, creating social value
He says the difference now is that efforts focus first on creating sustainability value, with business value to be captured later[17:51]
• He observes that the timescale for such initiatives may be five to ten years rather than the three to five years typical for technology companies
Dr. Xu asserts that with vision and patience, companies can both contribute to sustainability and eventually realize business value, and he notes that many of Tencent's peers are taking similar approaches[18:14]

Climate education and engagement through Tencent's video games

Connecting carbon credits and ecosystem protection to game themes

Sherelle notes Tencent's massive customer base and asks how its video games can impact climate education and advocacy[18:20]
Dr. Xu explains that Tencent began by pursuing its own decarbonization, which required addressing scope 3 emissions and using carbon credits[18:37]
• He says many carbon credit projects involve protecting ecosystems, which led Tencent to notice overlaps with themes in their games
He observes that many heroes in their games have environmental or nature-related backstories, such as being "the son of the forest" or a "guardian of the frozen world," or dealing with an apocalyptic climate-changed world[19:13]
This thematic alignment led Tencent to ask whether they could integrate real climate change knowledge and elements into their gaming worlds[19:38]

Pilot project in Southeast Asia linking in-game actions to real ecosystem protection

Dr. Xu describes a trial in Southeast Asia involving one of Tencent's games that was about to launch a new hero[19:44]
• The new hero is described as the son of the forest who grew up there and is friends with all the animals
They connected this storyline with real regional environmental challenges, such as threats to mangroves, peatlands, and marine biodiversity[19:59]
Tencent integrated these topics into the game and promised players that if they completed certain in-game tasks, Tencent would protect these ecosystems and forests on their behalf[20:19]
Dr. Xu says that over two or three weeks, more than 20 million players participated in this initiative[20:30]

Insights from the gaming-climate experiment

Dr. Xu says the result excited Tencent because it showed a pathway to communicate climate messages to younger generations in a way they like and that is not boring[20:46]
He says they also learned that people everywhere care about climate issues, not just in one region[20:28]
• He notes that this concern spans China, Asia, Europe, and America, indicating broad resonance of the topic
Based on the success, Tencent plans to run similar initiatives in other games and regions because climate is a topic that resonates with everyday life[21:07]

Looking toward 2030: waves of decarbonization technologies

Tencent's climate targets: carbon neutrality and net zero

Sherelle asks which specific technology might move the needle on climate change by 2030[23:18]
Dr. Xu says Tencent has committed to be carbon neutral by 2030 and will not stop there[23:26]
He explains that the company has also committed to net zero, which he describes as a more stringent version of carbon neutrality[23:29]
• Net zero, as he frames it, involves trying to reduce all possible emissions using any applicable technologies
He emphasizes that Tencent's decarbonization journey will continue after 2030 and will push major low-carbon technologies forward[23:47]

First wave: electrification and renewable energy transition

Dr. Xu identifies electricity-related technologies as already having a clear pathway[24:06]
He notes that renewables are cheaper than fossil fuels and that storage technologies enable the electrification of transportation[24:10]
He mentions new energy storage technologies that can make grids more flexible so they can accommodate more renewable energy[24:37]
He also highlights heat pumps as a way to decarbonize buildings through efficient cooling and district heating[24:33]
He concludes that the broader electrification and renewable energy transition is already underway and is expected to scale up significantly[24:37]

Second wave: decarbonizing hard-to-abate sectors

Dr. Xu says he believes the second wave of decarbonization will come from hard-to-abate sectors such as iron and steel, cement, chemicals, paper and pulp, and aluminum[24:53]
He observes that these industries are gaining more options to decarbonize their production compared to five years ago[25:08]
• He notes that previously, steelmaking options were mainly limited to using scrap, constrained by available scrap volumes, but now technologies like hydrogen and biochar are emerging
He emphasizes that many new technologies in these sectors are designed to be carbon neutral or net zero from the outset[25:33]
By 2030, he expects many of these technologies to be much cheaper and more scalable[25:41]
He predicts that first- or second-generation low-carbon technology "unicorns" could emerge from China or elsewhere in the world from this group[25:47]
• He says that such developments would give society confidence that decarbonization is achievable, even though he refuses to bet on any single technology

Uncertainty, risk, and the need to pursue multiple climate solutions

Dr. Xu's concerns about the path to climate solutions

Sherelle asks what worries Dr. Xu as he thinks about the hopeful 2030 vision and the challenges and roadblocks ahead[26:15]
Dr. Xu says a key challenge is that we do not know the right answer in terms of which technologies will prevail[26:40]
He reiterates that he does not want to bet on any single technology because he does not know who the final winner will be[26:44]

Examples of uncertain technological bets

Dr. Xu cites nuclear fusion as an example: some people argue that if fusion arrives in 20 years, society will have unlimited, emissions-free energy and will not need other solutions[26:51]
He points out the risk that fusion may not materialize as expected, raising the question of what happens then[27:06]
He notes that similar uncertainties apply to technologies like CCUS and hydrogen, which may or may not deliver at scale[27:18]

Necessity of advancing multiple technologies in parallel

Dr. Xu says society does not have time to wait until the "right answer" is known and then scale up a single solution[27:32]
He argues that this time pressure means we must push all promising possibilities forward at once[27:38]
He admits that this situation makes everyone nervous, including himself[27:41]

Closing reflections and credits

Sherelle and Dr. Xu's final thoughts

Sherelle thanks Dr. Xu for his candor and says she is excited about Tencent's goals and the vision he painted[27:53]
She underscores that achieving these goals will be challenging but that hard problems require new approaches and collective effort[28:00]
Sherelle says this challenge means all hands are on deck and everyone's talents can be put to use[28:09]
Dr. Xu responds that if everybody plays their role and takes action, society will get there[28:13]

Episode wrap-up and production credits

Sherelle reintroduces Dr. Xu as Vice President of Sustainable Social Value at Tencent and closes the interview[28:23]
She thanks listeners for checking out the special series and mentions that more interviews from the Countdown Climate Summit will be released in coming weeks on TED Tech[28:32]
She invites listeners to hear past conversations from the series on the TED Tech feed and to continue the conversation on social media at @TED and @TEDCountdown on Instagram and X[28:41]
Sherelle gives production credits, naming the producers, editor, fact-checker, and others who contributed to the show[29:05]
She encourages listeners to subscribe and leave a review so others can discover the podcast[29:19]
Sherelle signs off by saying she is Sherelle Dorsey and invites listeners to join her next week to keep exploring the future[29:23]

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

For transformative climate technologies to achieve real impact, they must move quickly from lab experiments to industrial-scale deployment while driving costs down to compete directly with fossil-based alternatives.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your own work or domain are promising ideas stuck at a 'lab scale' and need a deliberate push toward practical, larger-scale application?
  • • How could you redesign a project or product so that it becomes cost-competitive with the current default options rather than relying on subsidies or special treatment?
  • • What specific step could you take in the next month to test one of your solutions at a larger, more realistic scale and learn about its cost and performance?
2

Digital technologies like data analytics, AI, and automation can dramatically improve resource productivity by making operations more granular, responsive, and efficient, which often directly reduces emissions and costs.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In which parts of your organization or life are decisions still made with coarse, infrequent data that could benefit from more granular, real-time insight?
  • • How might applying automation or simple algorithmic rules to a recurring process reduce waste, errors, or unnecessary resource use?
  • • What is one process you manage today that you could instrument with better data or simple analytics over the next quarter to improve efficiency?
3

Creating sustainability value first and being patient about business returns can be a viable long-term strategy, especially when addressing large social and environmental problems that will inevitably reshape markets.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What important social or environmental problem overlaps with your organization's capabilities but is currently being under-served because the payoff seems too far out?
  • • How would your investment and project portfolio change if you extended your time horizon from three years to ten years for at least a few key bets?
  • • What is one initiative you could start or expand this year that primarily maximizes societal value now but has a plausible path to strong business value later?
4

Embedding serious topics like climate and sustainability into the cultural products people already love-such as games or media-can engage large audiences in ways that traditional education or messaging often cannot.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which platforms, communities, or cultural products already capture the attention of the people you most want to influence or educate?
  • • How could you weave meaningful social or environmental themes into an existing product, event, or story without making it feel preachy or boring?
  • • What small experiment could you run in the next six months to test whether a more playful or narrative-driven approach increases engagement with an important issue you care about?
5

Given deep uncertainty about which climate technologies will ultimately win, it is prudent to pursue a diversified portfolio of solutions rather than betting everything on a single 'silver bullet'.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your current strategy are you overly dependent on a single technology, supplier, or assumption being correct?
  • • How could you reframe your planning to support multiple promising options in parallel, while still setting clear milestones for learning and culling underperformers?
  • • What is one area where you could add a 'second path'-an alternative tool, partner, or approach-this year to reduce your exposure to being wrong about the future?

Episode Summary - Notes by Avery

Sunday Pick: Tech Solutions (#3): How one of China's biggest tech companies is tackling carbon removal (with Xu Hao)
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