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TED Talks Daily

How we took on an oil giant - and won | Melinda Janki

with Melinda Janke

Published September 22, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

Climate justice litigator Melinda Janke explains how she uses existing environmental and liability laws in Guyana to challenge ExxonMobil's massive offshore oil projects. She details several landmark legal victories that restricted permit durations, forced inclusion of global "scope three" emissions in impact assessments, and imposed unlimited liability backed by a parent company guarantee. The talk emphasizes that law is a powerful tool ordinary people can use to hold fossil fuel companies accountable and that the oil industry is more vulnerable than it appears.

Topics Covered

Climate change Climate change activism Environmental justice Lawsuits Pollution Renewable energy and decarbonization Oil industry ExxonMobil Guyana Climate finance

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Quick Takeaways

  • Melinda Janke left a corporate legal career in a major oil company to return to Guyana and use the law to defend people, nature, and indigenous land rights.
  • She drafted environmental laws that later became the basis for successful court challenges against ExxonMobil's offshore oil operations in Guyana.
  • In 2020, her team forced a reduction of ExxonMobil Guyana's environmental permits from 20 years to five by enforcing an overlooked rule in existing regulations.
  • A 2025 court decision, based on a legal provision she authored, requires environmental impact assessments to include global scope three emissions from burning Guyanese oil.
  • Another landmark ruling held ExxonMobil Guyana Limited unlimitedly liable for cleanup, environmental restoration, and compensation, requiring an unlimited parent company guarantee.
  • Following that guarantee ruling, ExxonMobil Corporation's share price declined by 12% over two weeks, illustrating the financial impact of legal accountability.
  • Courts have required ExxonMobil Guyana to comply with international law, provide insurance and a $2 billion guarantee, and have restricted co-venturers from using their production license.
  • Even in a case they technically lost, her team secured a precedent that people who go to court to protect the environment should not have to pay the other side's costs if they lose.
  • Janke argues that the oil industry's business model depends on dangerous greenhouse gas pollution and that, despite its image, it is weak and destined to collapse.
  • She urges people not to succumb to despair, insisting that with courage and intelligent use of existing laws, citizens can defeat powerful oil companies.

Podcast Notes

Podcast introduction and framing of the talk

TED Talks Daily host introduction

Host describes the purpose of TED Talks Daily[2:31]
• The show brings listeners new ideas every day to spark curiosity.
Host identifies herself[2:40]
• The host says, "I'm your host, Elise Hu."

Framing the climate context and the speaker

Need for bold strategies on climate change[2:43]
• Elise Hu says there is no sugarcoating that huge, bold strategies are needed to stop climate change damages.
Existing laws as a tool for climate action[2:54]
• She notes that big ideas for climate action do not have to be new; they can lie within laws that already exist.
Introduction of Melinda Janke and her work[2:51]
• Elise Hu introduces climate justice litigator Melinda Janke and says she will share a bold approach to climate action using existing laws.
• The host says Janke will use legal victories against ExxonMobil in her home country of Guyana as an example.
• She emphasizes that while oil companies may seem invincible, they are more vulnerable than people might think.

Melinda Janke's background and connection to nature

Early career in the oil industry and decision to leave

Corporate legal work inside a major oil company[3:18]
• Janke explains that when she was younger she worked in the oil industry as a corporate lawyer.
• She specifies that she worked inside one of the biggest oil companies in the world.
Turning point during a major transaction[3:27]
• During the middle of organizing a massive deal, a colleague remarked, "this is so sexy."
• That comment made her realize she had to leave the oil industry.
Return to Guyana[3:43]
• After deciding to leave, she returned to her home country, Guyana, in South America.

Description of Guyana and her legal work there

Environmental significance of Guyana[3:46]
• Janke describes Guyana as a very special place and says it is a carbon sink.
• She notes that Guyana is part of the Amazon rainforest.
Shift to defending people and nature[3:54]
• After returning, she began working to defend people and nature.
Drafting laws to protect environment and indigenous rights[3:58]
• She drafted new laws to protect the environment in Guyana.
• She also drafted laws to protect indigenous land rights.
Empowering indigenous community to protect forest[4:03]
• She used those new laws to empower an indigenous community.
• The empowered community was able to protect 2,300 square miles of tropical forest.

Personal connection to nature

Emotional and personal bond with nature[4:24]
• Janke says this work is really important to her because she feels deeply connected to nature.
• She says nature lives with her in her house and in her garden.
Examples of species she lives among[4:27]
• She lists birds, butterflies, flowers, trees, bees, bats, toads, lizards, opossums, and little snakes as part of her family.
Sense of magic in nature[4:57]
• She describes moments in the quiet stillness of an afternoon when a hummingbird shimmers a few feet away.
• In those moments, she feels there is magic on Earth.

Threat of fossil fuels and the decision to fight ExxonMobil in Guyana

Global overheating and fossil fuel industry

Magic of nature under threat[5:01]
• She states that the magic she feels in nature is threatened by global overheating.
Cause of global overheating[5:01]
• She attributes global overheating to greenhouse gas pollution from the fossil fuel industry.

ExxonMobil's discovery offshore Guyana

Return to the oil industry narrative[5:11]
• She says the story now returns to the oil industry, but as a story of fighting and winning.
2015 ExxonMobil announcement[5:21]
• In 2015, ExxonMobil announced they had found oil offshore Guyana.
• She describes this as one of the biggest oil finds in recent times.
Scale of the oil discovery and emissions[5:42]
• The find was more than 11 billion barrels of oil.
• She notes that burning that oil could release 5 billion tons of greenhouse gas pollution.
Importance of Guyana field to ExxonMobil[5:42]
• She says the Guyana field is so important to Exxon that they call it a "jewel in their crown."
Her decision to act[5:50]
• Upon learning this, she says, "I knew I had to do something."

Perception of oil industry power and her rebuttal

Common perception of oil industry[6:13]
• She anticipates that people think the oil industry is big and powerful.
• She notes people have seen how hard it is to go up against oil companies.
Oil companies' intended narrative of invincibility[6:00]
• She says oil companies want people to believe they cannot fight them.
Assertion that they can be fought and beaten[6:27]
• Janke insists that people can fight oil companies and can win.
• She says she is doing it and that others can too.

Janke's view of the oil industry's motivations

Oil industry indifference to people and planet[6:44]
• She declares that the oil industry does not care about people, human rights, the environment, or the planet.
Primary motivation: money[6:49]
• She says the oil industry cares about money and only responds to power.

Law as power and her initial isolation

Law as a tool of power[6:30]
• She frames law as power and says, "I'm a lawyer. I use law."
Starting the legal fight alone[6:57]
• When she first began this work, she says she was alone.
Skepticism and ridicule she faced[6:53]
• People laughed at her for taking on the oil industry with no money and with a pensioner as a client.

Key legal victories against ExxonMobil in Guyana

Growth of legal team and number of cases filed

Expansion of litigation[6:53]
• She states that she has filed 10 cases against the oil industry.
Emergence of broader legal movement[7:22]
• She says good, courageous lawyers have been inspired to join the fight.

2020 victory limiting permit duration

First noted win against ExxonMobil Guyana[7:07]
• She says they first beat ExxonMobil in 2020.
• They reduced ExxonMobil Guyana's permits from 20 years to five years.
Method: enforcing an overlooked rule[7:27]
• She read through 197 pages of legal rules and regulations.
• On page 191 she found a rule restricting environmental permits to five years.
• Their legal strategy was simply to enforce that existing rule.
Emphasis on using existing law, not moral arguments[7:39]
• She does not ask judges to make new laws or use moral arguments.
• She stresses that she uses existing law.
Balancing heart and head in legal work[7:47]
• She says her heart tells her what to do, but her head tells her how to do it.
• She notes that she does not confuse the two.

2025 victory on scope three emissions in impact assessment

Recent court win in March 2025[7:57]
• She describes their most recent win as occurring in March 2025.
Argument to include global pollution from burned oil[8:08]
• They argued that the environmental impact assessment (EIA) for Exxon's project to extract oil from Guyana should account for all pollution anywhere in the world where that oil is burned.
• She identifies this as scope three emissions.
Legal basis: "indirect impacts" section she drafted[8:27]
• They relied on a section of the law that she had drafted.
• That section states that an environmental impact assessment must include indirect impacts.
• They argued that scope three emissions are indirect impacts.
Judge's decision and implications[8:31]
• The judge agreed with their interpretation.
• As a result, the EIA for that ExxonMobil Guyana project must now include scope three emissions.
• She says this makes it harder to justify doing oil projects.
Precedent set for future projects[8:44]
• She explains that this decision sets a precedent.
• It applies to every project by ExxonMobil Guyana.
• It also applies to every company that wants to produce oil from Guyana.

Liability, financial guarantees, and major risk to ExxonMobil

Dangers of oil production and who pays when things go wrong

Inherent risks of oil production[9:00]
• She states that oil production is a very dangerous exercise.
Question of financial responsibility after accidents[9:06]
• She notes that when things go wrong, someone has to pay.

Case arguing Guyana should not bear cleanup costs

Framing of their most significant case[9:10]
• She calls the next lawsuit their most significant case so far.
Key legal claim about liability[9:42]
• They argued that Guyana should not have to pay for harm caused by Exxon's drilling.
• They contended that Exxon's drilling operations should pay for the damage.
Judge's ruling on liability and its scope[9:42]
• The judge agreed with them.
• The judge ruled that ExxonMobil Guyana Limited is liable for all costs of cleaning up and restoring the environment and compensating people.
• The judge said that this liability is unlimited.
• She notes that unlimited liability could amount to billions of dollars.

Requirement for unlimited parent company guarantee

Finding that local subsidiary lacked funds[10:02]
• The judge found that ExxonMobil Guyana Limited did not have enough money to cover the potential liability.
Order for parent company guarantee[10:06]
• Because of this, the judge ordered an unlimited parent company guarantee.
Share price impact on ExxonMobil Corporation[10:13]
• She says that in the two weeks following this decision, ExxonMobil Corporation's share price declined by 12%.

Additional legal successes and procedural victory on court costs

Other court-ordered obligations for ExxonMobil Guyana

Requirements to comply with international law[10:27]
• She notes that the courts have said ExxonMobil Guyana Limited must comply with international law.
Insurance and financial guarantee requirements[10:30]
• Courts have required ExxonMobil Guyana Limited to provide insurance.
• They also must provide a $2 billion guarantee.
Restrictions on co-venturers' use of production license[10:45]
• Courts have said that ExxonMobil Guyana's co-venturers, Hess Guyana and CNOOC (Chinese National Offshore Oil Corporation) Guyana, are not allowed to use their petroleum production license to produce oil.

Acknowledging losses and introducing the "Rambo" case

Recognition that not all cases are won[10:49]
• She states frankly that they do not always win.
Origin of the first case she filed[10:53]
• Her first case was for someone she met after accidentally crashing into him on her bicycle.
• At that time, the man was an advisor to the president of Guyana.
Client's background and nickname[11:07]
• His reputation was so fierce that his nickname was "Rambo."
Rambo returns years later to fight ExxonMobil[11:09]
• Twenty years later, he appeared in her office as a 75-year-old pensioner.
• He was furious with ExxonMobil and determined to fight.
• She agreed to take his case.

Procedural victory on court costs despite losing the case

Outcome of the Rambo case[11:47]
• The judges did not give them the ruling they asked for in that case.
Changing the risk of cost penalties[11:39]
• She explains that in many countries, if you lose in court, you may have to pay the other side's costs, which can be very expensive.
• This financial risk can make people afraid to go to court.
New precedent protecting environmental litigants[11:53]
• Their case changed this rule in their jurisdiction.
• The judges ruled that if you come to court to protect the environment but lose, you should not have to pay the other side's costs.
• She says this makes it easier for people to go to court and fight the oil industry.
Geographic reach of the decision and hope for wider influence[12:19]
• She notes that this decision already binds five countries.
• She hopes people outside those five countries will use the judgment to persuade judges elsewhere that people should be able to fight for the planet without being penalized if they lose.

Broader framing: the oil industry business model and a call to courageous action

Incompatibility of oil's business model with life on Earth

Necessity of continued legal resistance[12:29]
• She says they will continue to fight and that they do not have a choice.
Description of the oil industry business model[12:44]
• She states that the oil industry's business model depends on producing greenhouse gas pollution.
• She characterizes this pollution as a serious danger to life on Earth.
Stark framing: "them or us"[12:57]
• She summarizes the situation as "It's them or us."

Challenging the myth of an all-powerful oil industry

Oil companies' strategy of fostering despair[13:21]
• She says oil companies want people to feel despair and powerless.
• She adds that they can only produce that despair if people let them.
Claim that the oil industry is weak and doomed to collapse[13:10]
• She tells the audience not to be fooled by the big, bad image of the oil industry.
• She asserts that the oil industry is weak and powerless and is going to collapse.
• She says the only question is when that collapse will happen.

Final call to fight with courage and intelligence

Empowerment through legal courage and strategic thinking[13:34]
• She concludes that when people fight the oil industry with courage and intelligence, they beat it.

Outro and production credits

Identification of the event and year of the talk

TED Countdown Summit details[13:44]
• The host notes that the talk was given by Melinda Janke at the TED Countdown Summit in Nairobi, Kenya in 2025.

Reference to TED's curation information

Where to learn about TED's curation[13:57]
• Listeners are told they can find out more about TED's curation at TED.com/curationguidelines.

Podcast production credits and sign-off

Fact-checking and production team[14:07]
• The host says the talk was fact-checked by the TED Research Team.
• She lists members of the production and editing team: Martha Estefanos, Oliver Friedman, Brian Green, Lucy Little, and Tansika Sangmarnivong.
• She notes that the episode was mixed by Christopher Fasey-Bogan, with additional support from Emma Taubner and Daniela Balarezo.
Host's closing remarks[14:09]
• Elise Hu signs off by saying she will be back tomorrow with a fresh idea and thanks listeners for listening.

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Powerful change can come from rigorously enforcing existing rules rather than waiting for new laws or moral awakenings; careful reading and creative use of current regulations can unlock leverage against much larger opponents.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What rules, contracts, or policies in my environment might contain overlooked provisions that I could use more effectively?
  • • How could I build a habit of examining the fine print and underlying structures before assuming a situation is fixed or unchangeable?
  • • What specific issue I'm facing right now could benefit from a patient, detailed review of the existing rules that govern it?
2

Aligning emotional conviction (heart) with clear-headed strategy (head) makes activism and advocacy more effective than acting from passion or logic alone.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in my life am I acting mostly from emotion without a solid plan, or from analysis without genuine commitment?
  • • How might my impact change if I deliberately separated "why" I care about an issue from "how" I will address it before taking action?
  • • What is one cause I care deeply about, and what concrete, step-by-step strategy could I design this week to advance it more effectively?
3

Seemingly small legal or procedural precedents-like shifting who pays court costs or how impacts are counted-can open the door for many others to act, multiplying the effect of a single case.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which small structural changes in my organization or community could remove fear or friction for others to step up and participate?
  • • How could I reframe a current challenge I'm working on to focus on creating a precedent that helps many people, not just winning once?
  • • What is one rule, process, or norm I could work to change that would make it easier for others to take principled action in the future?
4

Challenging a powerful industry requires persistence and a long-term view, recognizing that not every battle will be won but that even losses can yield important strategic gains.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where have I interpreted a setback as a total failure instead of looking for the useful precedents or insights it created?
  • • How might my approach to a difficult opponent or problem change if I measured success over years and multiple attempts instead of a single outcome?
  • • What is one ongoing struggle in my work or life where I could define a "win" more broadly to include learning, visibility, or future leverage?
5

Narratives of invincibility around large institutions or industries often serve to discourage opposition; actively rejecting that narrative and focusing on specific leverage points restores agency.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which institutions, systems, or problems do I currently see as too big to influence, and why do I believe that?
  • • How could I break one of these "too big" challenges into smaller, concrete leverage points where my skills or networks actually matter?
  • • What is one area where I've been feeling powerless, and what small, targeted action could I take in the next month to test that assumption?

Episode Summary - Notes by Peyton

How we took on an oil giant - and won | Melinda Janki
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