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Stuff You Should Know

Short Stuff: Third Man Syndrome

Published November 12, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

Josh and Chuck discuss "third man syndrome," a phenomenon where people in extreme, often life-threatening situations report sensing a distinct, guiding presence that feels like another person with them. They explore classic accounts from Ernest Shackleton's Antarctic expedition, mountaineers like Frank Smythe and Joe Simpson, and survivors of the 9/11 attacks, then consider possible explanations ranging from an innate survival mechanism to the bicameral mind hypothesis. The conversation stays grounded in reported experiences while acknowledging that science has no definitive explanation yet.

Topics Covered

Near-death experiences Consciousness Philosophy of mind Trauma Resilience Adventure travel Perspective shift Religion and spirituality Science communication

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Quick Takeaways

  • Third man syndrome describes the vivid sensation of an unseen companion who appears to guide and comfort people in extreme, life-threatening situations.
  • Ernest Shackleton and two of his men independently reported feeling a "fourth" presence with them during a brutal crossing on South Georgia Island after their Antarctic shipwreck.
  • Many accounts involve mountaineers in cold, high-risk environments, but similar experiences have been reported by 9/11 survivors and cave divers.
  • The perceived presence can feel so real that people speak to it or try to share food with it, and sometimes it takes the form of a known deceased loved one.
  • Scientists suspect it may be an innate, hardwired survival response, but it's nearly impossible to study directly because it only appears in extreme, rare circumstances.
  • The bicameral mind hypothesis offers another angle, suggesting the phenomenon might be a vestigial form of an older mental organization where inner voices were experienced as external gods or agents.

Podcast Notes

Introduction and framing of Third Man Syndrome

Opening banter and sensing extra "people" in the studio

Josh introduces the Short Stuff episode and the hosts[1:09]
• Josh welcomes listeners and identifies himself and Chuck as the hosts
Joking reference to a "third and fourth man" being present[1:12]
• Josh says they have a third and fourth man with them in the form of Jerry and Dave
• Chuck and Josh say they sense Jerry and Dave's presence and feel they are guiding them to finish the Short Stuff
Transition from joke to topic introduction[1:39]
• Josh notes that they just "demonstrated" a weird phenomenon they're about to discuss
• They identify the phenomenon as the "third man syndrome"

Naming and description of Third Man Syndrome

John Geiger and the terminology "factor" vs. "syndrome"[1:44]
• Josh mentions an author named John Geiger who changed the term from "third man syndrome" to "third man factor" in his work
• Josh describes the phenomenon as typically known as third man syndrome despite Geiger's change
Clarifying that it is unrelated to the film "The Third Man"[2:09]
• Chuck explicitly says it has nothing to do with the movie "The Third Man"
• He calls the movie great and notes he initially assumed there might be a connection because of the title
Why the name is misleading ("man" and "third")[2:31]
• Chuck says it does not have to be a man and suggests it should really be called "the third person syndrome"
• Josh and Chuck point out that if the experiencer is alone, the additional presence would technically be a second person, not a third

Core definition of Third Man Syndrome

Typical scenario: people in dire straits[2:12]
• Chuck explains it has been talked about for hundreds of years by many people
• He says it usually involves someone in dire straits, often a mountaineer or someone lost in the wilderness struggling to survive
• Chuck notes it does not always involve wilderness or mountaineering, and they will give other examples later
Nature of the sensed presence[3:13]
• Chuck describes that at the person's lowest point, they get a sense that someone else is there, urging them on
• Josh emphasizes that the sensation is not a faint or vague thought but a very serious, tangible feeling of another presence
• Josh likens it to the same sense you have when someone is actually sitting next to you

Ernest Shackleton and the classic Third Man account

Introduction to Shackleton's documented experience

Shackleton as first to document, not first to experience[3:14]
• Chuck notes Ernest Shackleton was the first to really document the phenomenon in writing
• He clarifies that Shackleton surely was not the first to experience it, just the first to write about it
Context: Antarctic expedition of 1914-15[3:32]
• Josh recalls they have talked about Shackleton before on the show
• He describes a British expedition to Antarctica in 1914-15, Shackleton's third try, attempting to reach the South Pole and establish a base
• Josh explains the ship was trapped in sea ice; they initially tried to ride it out
• He notes the ice eventually came together and crushed the boat, illustrating how forceful creeping ice can be
• The crew abandoned ship, set up camp on the ice, and lived there for about four months

Escape to Elephant Island

Waiting for the ice to break and rowing to the nearest island[4:05]
• Chuck says they waited for the ice to break up enough to try to make an attempt by whaling boat to Elephant Island, the closest island
• He notes they rowed for six days before reaching Elephant Island
• Chuck points out that while they were no longer on the ice, they were now on a deserted island, which he assumes was very cold
Lack of communication and distance to help[4:29]
• Josh emphasizes this was 1914, so they could not simply call for rescue with modern communication tools
• He explains the closest place with other people and a chance to request rescue was a whaling station on South Georgia Island, 800 miles away

800-mile journey to South Georgia Island

Rowing voyage and arrival[4:54]
• Josh says Shackleton decided they had to keep going and reduced the group to five or six men
• They rowed 800 miles from Antarctica to South Georgia Island
• Josh notes they arrived 16 days later but landed on the wrong side of the island because winds had blown them off course

Final 18-mile trek on foot and the sensed presence

Crossing the island interior[5:08]
• Chuck says Shackleton, still undaunted, took two men with him to cross the rest of the way on foot
• He notes the distance was about 18 miles (30 kilometers) through treacherous conditions, taking about 36 hours
• Chuck explains they eventually reached the station and that everyone was rescued, which he calls the good news
Shackleton and his men experience the "fourth" person[5:39]
• Chuck says Shackleton felt the presence of an additional person urging them on during that last push
• Josh adds that they had reached the limit of their endurance yet continued on
• Josh explains Shackleton sensed the extra presence but did not talk about it publicly until his book "South" was published in 1919
• Josh mentions Shackleton did raise it with the two others: Captain Worsley and Crean, who both said they had the same feeling
• All three men agreed they sensed another person-a fourth person-comforting and accompanying them

T.S. Eliot and the naming of Third Man Syndrome

Connection to T.S. Eliot's "The Waste Land"

Attribution of the term "third man"[6:27]
• Josh says T.S. Eliot is frequently cited as the person who coined the term "third man syndrome"
• He notes that, as far as he can tell, no one knows who exactly took Eliot's poem and turned it into the formal term "third man syndrome"
• Josh points out that the association indisputably comes from a passage in Eliot's 1922 poem "The Waste Land"
Math mismatch between three and four[6:59]
• Chuck notes that Eliot's poem could have been titled "The Fourth Man" given the Shackleton story, but the numbers do not perfectly align
• He says T.S. Eliot admitted he could not remember which expedition inspired the passage when asked why the number was three instead of four

Josh reads the "third who walks always beside you" passage

Poetic description of the mysterious companion[7:06]
• Josh reads the excerpt beginning, "Who is the third who walks always beside you?"
• The passage describes seeing only two people when counted, but always noticing a third gliding figure wrapped in a brown mantle, hooded, whose gender is unknown
• The narrator asks, "But who is that on the other side of you? Answer me," capturing the unsettling but insistent nature of the presence
Brief reaction and break[7:40]
• Chuck compliments Josh's reading and suggests taking a break so listeners can absorb it in stunned silence

Additional Third Man cases collected by John Geiger

Overview of Geiger's book "The Third Man Factor"

Scope of Geiger's collection[10:04]
• Chuck recaps Shackleton's version and notes that the phenomenon has happened many times
• He references John Geiger's 2008 book "The Third Man Factor," in which Geiger dug up many such stories
• Josh calls it quite a feat that Geiger assembled these accounts because they are relatively few and far between

Frank Smythe's Everest attempt in 1933

Solo climb and near-first summit[10:27]
• Josh describes Frank Smythe as a climber who made a solo attempt to summit Everest in 1933
• He notes Smythe would have been the first to summit if successful, but he got close and had to turn back
Intensity of the perceived companion[10:29]
• Josh says Smythe's second man was so real to him that he turned to offer them food at one point
• Smythe only realized there was no one actually there after attempting to share food, underscoring how tangible the presence felt
• Josh calls this a "tangible, intangible presence" to highlight the paradox

Cultural echoes: similar scenes in movies

Chuck's observation about film portrayals[10:52]
• Chuck says he has seen similar scenes in movies where a character interacts with an unseen person who then disappears
• He notes these scenes are not usually labeled as third man syndrome in films
• He clarifies that in the examples he's thinking of, the vibe is comforting rather than horror-style, explicitly contrasting it with a Nicole Kidman horror film he chooses not to spoil

Joe Simpson's Peruvian Andes accident

Accident and book "Touching the Void"[11:27]
• Chuck describes climber Joe Simpson in 1985, climbing in the Peruvian Andes when he broke his leg
• He notes Simpson was in very bad shape and later wrote a book titled "Touching the Void"
Guiding voice and following its directions[11:27]
• Chuck says Simpson wrote about obeying a voice that guided him, not just encouraging him but actually directing which way to go
• Chuck concludes that, based on these accounts, if you ever find yourself in such a situation, it is wise to go in whatever direction your invisible person tells you
• Josh reinforces this by summarizing the lesson as "obey the voice"

Beyond the cold: non-mountain examples, including 9/11

Question of whether cold is a factor[11:57]
• Josh notes that so many cases involve mountaineers that he wondered if cold might play a role
• He points out, however, that similar experiences occur in very different environments, not just cold, mountainous ones
Ron DeFrancesco's escape from the South Tower[12:10]
• Josh explains that after the 9/11 attacks, at least two survivors reported third man-type experiences
• One was Ron DeFrancesco, described as the last person out of the South Tower before it collapsed
• Josh says DeFrancesco was led down while others were going up and actually went through three stories of fire to get to safety, driven by the urging presence
Janelle Guzman-McMillan's guardian angel "Paul"[12:27]
• Josh introduces Janelle Guzman McMillan as another 9/11 survivor who was trapped in the rubble of the North Tower
• He says she reported a similar experience and considered the presence a guardian angel named Paul

Case of the cave diver and her deceased husband

Lost guideline and limited air[12:54]
• Chuck describes a geologist on a cave dive who lost her guideline with only 20 minutes of air left
Appearance of her husband Rob[12:58]
• Chuck notes that she felt the presence of her husband Rob
• He adds that Rob had died in a diving accident just a few weeks prior, making this an example where the third man is a known, deceased individual

Known vs. unknown identities of the presence

Variety in how people interpret the companion[12:02]
• Chuck remarks that sometimes the presence appears as a known individual, like the diver's deceased husband
• Josh recounts that Janelle Guzman McMillan did not think her presence was a family member, but she saw it as a guardian angel and gave it the name Paul
• Josh notes that these presences sometimes get names even if the experiencer does not recognize them as specific people
Hosts' light-hearted naming aside[13:17]
• Josh muses that he would name his own third man, feeling it would be disrespectful to just say "hey, you"
• Chuck suggests that if you cannot come up with a name, you should just go with "Tim"

Speculative explanations for Third Man Syndrome

Innate hardwired instinct hypothesis

Limits of scientific study[13:37]
• Chuck says that from a scientific standpoint, no one really knows what is happening
• He explains it may be some hardwired, innate instinct that kicks in under extreme conditions
• Chuck emphasizes you cannot really study something like this in a controlled way, both because of ethical and practical constraints
Rarity of the phenomenon[13:51]
• Chuck notes that if it is hardwired, many or all people might possess this capacity but most are never in situations that trigger it
• Josh points out that to report the experience, you must both reach an extreme, life-or-death threshold and survive to tell the story
• He infers that this makes the population of people with such experiences very small
• Josh notes the small number of cases aligns with how few stories Geiger was able to collect despite his extensive efforts

Bicameral mind hypothesis as an explanatory model

Recap of Julian Jaynes' bicameral mind theory[14:26]
• Josh asks if Chuck saw the bicameral mind theory connection and then recalls their prior episode on Julian Jaynes' idea
• He summarizes Jaynes' hypothesis that until the Bronze Age, people were not conscious in the modern sense
• Josh explains that what we now understand as inner dialogue was, for them, experienced as external voices of the gods instructing and guiding them
Third man as a vestigial bicameral experience[14:52]
• Josh conveys the idea that third man syndrome might be a vestigial bicameral experience in which part of the mind appears to act as an external helper
• He describes it as something that seems to be outside the mind, helping, urging, and guiding, but is actually another part of the mind that activates under stress
• Chuck says he loves this explanation and notes it aligns well with the earlier hardwired instinct theory rather than contradicting it
• Josh explicitly states that there is no canceling between these theories; they can coexist

Closing reflections and wishes for listeners

Hoping the instinct exists but never needs to be used

Final personal sentiment from the hosts[15:08]
• Josh says he hopes this instinct is present in all of us, because he would want a pal urging him on "in the end"
• Chuck agrees but adds that he hopes no one listening ever has to experience it, because reaching that point sounds very rough
• Chuck signs off by saying "Short Stuff is out"

Production credit

Identification of the show and network[15:47]
• The episode closes with the statement that Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio and directs listeners to the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or other platforms

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Under extreme stress, your mind may generate a vivid, guiding presence that feels external but functions as an internal survival mechanism, offering direction and comfort when rational planning begins to fail.

Reflection Questions:

  • • When you've been under intense pressure in the past, what forms has your inner guidance or self-talk taken, and did it feel internal or external to you?
  • • How could you better recognize the difference between panicked thoughts and a calmer, guiding voice the next time you face a crisis or high-stakes situation?
  • • What is one current challenge where you could intentionally pause, listen inwardly, and treat your most grounded inner voice as a trusted guide for your next step?
2

Stories of third man experiences suggest that in life-or-death situations, obeying clear, insistent inner signals-especially when they provide specific, actionable directions-can be a rational survival strategy.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In what areas of your life do you routinely ignore strong gut feelings or persistent inner nudges, and what has that cost you?
  • • How might your decision-making change if you treated repeated, calm internal signals as data points to be tested rather than dismissed?
  • • What is one decision you're wrestling with right now where you could experiment with following your clearest inner guidance and then carefully observing the outcome?
3

Human beings appear to have deep, hard-to-study capacities that only emerge under extreme conditions, reminding us that our everyday self is not the full extent of our mental and emotional resources.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your life do you tend to underestimate your own resilience or capacity to handle difficulty?
  • • How could acknowledging that you likely have untapped emergency resources change the way you approach ambitious goals or feared obstacles?
  • • What modest but uncomfortable challenge could you deliberately take on this month to safely explore and expand your sense of your own capabilities?
4

Different interpretive frameworks (like a hardwired survival instinct and the bicameral mind hypothesis) can both illuminate a phenomenon from complementary angles, showing the value of holding multiple explanations in mind at once.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where are you currently insisting on a single explanation for something complex in your life or work, and how might that be limiting your understanding?
  • • How could entertaining two or three plausible models for a situation improve the quality of your decisions and reduce your overconfidence?
  • • What is one problem you're facing where you could deliberately map out at least two different explanatory stories and see what each suggests you should do next?
5

Meaning-making-such as naming a guiding presence or framing it as a guardian angel-can provide psychological strength in desperate circumstances, even if the underlying mechanism is purely internal.

Reflection Questions:

  • • How do the stories you tell yourself about past hardships shape your current sense of strength or vulnerability?
  • • In what ways could you consciously reframe a difficult ongoing situation to emphasize guidance, growth, or support rather than isolation or doom?
  • • What new, more empowering narrative could you begin using this week to describe a challenge you're in the middle of right now?

Episode Summary - Notes by Reese

Short Stuff: Third Man Syndrome
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