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Stuff You Should Know

Selects: Rockettes: Still Kicking After All These Years

Published November 22, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

Hosts Josh Clark and Charles W. "Chuck" Bryant explore the history and inner workings of the Rockettes, from their origins as the Missouri Rockets inspired by the British Tiller Girls to their long residence at Radio City Music Hall. They cover how precision dance works, the troupe's role in saving Radio City, the grueling but coveted life of a modern Rockette, and controversies around representation and political performances. The episode also touches on updates to the show under director Linda Haberman and ends with a listener story about participating as a mock victim in a search-and-rescue dog exercise.

Topics Covered

Rockettes Precision dance Showmanship Parade logistics and event management Television history Work ethic Workplace dynamics Urban design and culture Radio City Music Hall Women in STEM

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • The Rockettes originated in St. Louis in 1925 as the Missouri Rockets, inspired by British precision dancers the Tiller Girls, before moving to New York and becoming synonymous with Radio City Music Hall.
  • Precision dance turns a line of highly trained dancers into a single, unified visual element, with strict requirements on height and exact synchronization to create the illusion of uniformity.
  • For decades, the Rockettes performed multiple shows a day as openers for movies at Radio City, changing entire routines whenever a film changed, sometimes learning new choreography overnight.
  • In the 1970s, the Rockettes helped save Radio City Music Hall from demolition by campaigning for landmark status and raising public awareness of the building's cultural value.
  • Modern Rockettes endure a grueling seasonal schedule-rehearsing six days a week and sometimes performing up to four 90‑minute shows a day-but still describe the job as an honor and a tight-knit sisterhood.
  • All Rockettes are paid the same union wage regardless of seniority, reflecting the troupe's philosophy that the line, not individuals, is the star.
  • The organization was slow to integrate; its first woman of color, a Japanese dancer, joined in 1985, followed by its first Black Rockette in 1988.
  • Under director Linda Haberman, the Christmas Spectacular was updated with more modern themes, effects, and a more humanized, less objectified presentation of the dancers.
  • The troupe has been involved in major national events like the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, Super Bowl halftime shows, and presidential inaugurations, including a contentious debate over performing at Donald Trump's inauguration.
  • A listener mail segment describes how a trained search-and-rescue dog effortlessly tracked a volunteer "victim" through complex maneuvers, underlining the dogs' remarkable capabilities.

Podcast Notes

Selects introduction and episode framing

Chuck introduces the Saturday "Selects" rerun

Chuck notes this is a Saturday "Select" episode of Stuff You Should Know[1:29]
He introduces the title as "Rockettes: still kicking after all these years" and says it originally came out January 1, 2019[1:36]
He describes the Rockettes as an organization and dance troupe with a storied history and says this is the right time of year to talk about them[1:41]

Hosts' opening banter and setup

Show intro and joke about Rockette height

Josh opens with "Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio" and introduces himself and co-host Charles W. "Chuck" Bryant, plus producer Jerry[2:09]
They wish listeners a Happy New Year, placing the original recording at the start of a new year[2:11]
Chuck jokes Josh is too tall to be a Rockette, while Jerry and Chuck could qualify[2:17]

Banter about legs, body types, and "gams"

Josh says it's a shame he can't be a Rockette because he "has the gams" and claims to have pretty decent legs, especially his calves[2:28]
He describes his thighs as too "tree-trunky" and likens his build around the hips to a "fertility idol" due to squats[2:33]
Chuck describes his own legs as shapely and jokes that if you only saw his arms and legs, you'd think he weighed 160 pounds, but the rest of his body contradicts that[3:04]
They joke about having a nice "fanny" and note that the word has different meanings in the U.S. and U.K., poking fun at British usage[3:16]

Overview of the Rockettes and origins of precision dance

Rockettes as a legendary dance troupe

Josh calls the Rockettes about as legendary as a dance troupe can be[3:45]
They clarify that the Rockettes known from Radio City Music Hall in New York City did not originate in New York[4:08]
Chuck says he had no idea they were not from New York and gives a shout-out to St. Louis[4:14]

Founding as the Missouri Rockets in St. Louis

The troupe was founded in 1925 in St. Louis, Missouri, as the Missouri Rockets or St. Louis Rockets[4:30]
Chuck jokes that "St. Louis Rockets" sounds like a basketball team name[4:30]
The founder was choreographer Russell Markert, whose surname they note looks like "Market" but has an extra "r"[4:38]
Markert was inspired by a British dance troupe called the Tiller Girls, founded in 1894 by John Tiller[4:58]
After seeing the Tiller Girls, Markert decided he wanted his own high-kicking, glamorous, theatrical dance troupe and essentially "ripped off" the idea[5:07]

John Tiller and the invention of precision dance

Josh explains that John Tiller is widely acknowledged as the creator of "precision dance"[5:45]
Precision dance involves a large number of highly trained, athletic dancers moving in such perfect unison that they function visually as a single entity, capable of effects no individual dancer could achieve alone[5:36]
Tiller developed the style with four 10‑year‑old girls in the 1890s and refined techniques like having dancers put their hands around the waists of neighbors to increase unity[5:50]
Markert saw this and thought that if he could get American girls with longer legs to kick higher, it would "knock everybody's socks off"-a line Josh cites as a quote[6:12]

Emotional appeal of synchronized performance

Chuck says that the synchronicity of movement and sound-like a large choir or symphony-deeply affects him[6:23]
He notes that watching a symphony, the physical movement of the musicians is a big part of the experience, and a choral symphony can move him to tears[6:41]
He describes these as examples of a "collective voice" or collective movement where precision is what makes it so powerful[7:03]
Josh says that precision is exactly what the Rockettes trade in, although he notes the Tiller Girls still exist and might dispute that the Rockettes are the pinnacle of precision dance[7:12]

Height requirements and visual uniformity

Evolution of height requirements

Originally, the Rockettes' height requirement was between 5'2" and 5'6.5"[7:45]
Today, the range is 5'6" to 5'10.5", a substantial shift upward[7:45]
Josh and Chuck note that the change isn't meant to discriminate against very tall or short dancers but to support a specific visual effect[8:11]

Optical illusion of equal height

They explain that the tallest dancer, up to 5'10.5", is placed in the center and heights are staggered outward so that, across the line, everyone appears the same height[8:35]
Josh says he has seen multiple sources assert that this illusion works, but he doesn't fully understand how; Chuck suggests that over a 4‑inch difference across 36 dancers, variations are too subtle for most people to detect[8:37]

Early years: Missouri Rockets to Roxyettes at Radio City

From 16 dancers in St. Louis to Broadway

The original Missouri Rockets started with 16 women[9:24]
They debuted in St. Louis and then went to New York to perform in the Broadway production "Rain or Shine"[9:31]
There, they caught the attention of theater impresario S. L. "Roxy" Rothafel[9:57]

Roxy Rothafel and the move to Radio City Music Hall

Rothafel, nicknamed "Roxy," saw the troupe and decided he wanted to bring them into his orbit[9:57]
He planned to move some dancers from St. Louis to New York to perform at a new venue opening in 1932: Radio City Music Hall[10:19]
He proposed renaming them the "Roxyettes" after his nickname[10:13]
Markert agreed, provided he was paid, and he continued to be paid and work with the troupe until 1971[10:37]
Josh notes Markert worked with the Rockets/Roxyettes from their St. Louis founding in 1925 all the way through 1971-a remarkably long career with one troupe[10:55]

Opening of Radio City and movie tie-ins

The troupe was part of a 17‑act bill when Radio City Music Hall opened, and the venue became a massively hot ticket[10:59]
Radio City has a seating capacity of about 6,200, and around its opening some 100,000 people wanted tickets[10:59]
Josh says Radio City is, as far as he has seen, still the nation's largest indoor theatrical venue, clarifying that sports venues are larger but this is the largest of its type[11:25]
For many years the hall functioned primarily as a movie theater; premieres were accompanied by Rockettes performances[11:41]
At some point, management decided to have the Rockettes perform before every movie, not just premieres, which they describe as an amazing experience for filmgoers[11:55]

Constantly changing routines tied to films

The Rockettes developed different routines for each film run, so when a movie flopped and was pulled quickly, their entire choreographed routine for that movie was discarded[12:29]
New routines often had to be learned in a matter of hours, sometimes around midnight before the next day's performances[12:57]
Chuck wonders if routines were always tied thematically to the film; Josh says sometimes they were but often they simply changed routines so audiences seeing a different film would get a different show[12:50]

Mid-century expansion and workload: USO, dorms, and parades

USO performances and grueling 1950s schedule

In the 1940s, the Rockettes were among the first groups to sign up for the United Service Organizations (USO) to perform for troops[13:23]
By the 1950s, they were sometimes performing up to five times a day, a pace that took a serious toll[13:36]
A dormitory was built at Radio City so Rockettes could live on-site or nearby, primarily to accommodate their nearly round-the-clock rehearsals and performances[13:41]
Josh jokingly compares this arrangement to tech companies like Google that make it easy for employees never to leave the workplace[14:18]

Becoming a national icon via the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade

In 1957, the Rockettes joined the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, which Josh calls a big move in their national recognition[14:39]
Chuck notes this took them from a troupe you had to see in New York or during wartime tours to a group that appeared in viewers' living rooms via television[14:49]
He imagines the delight of watching their high-kicking line on TV during the parade[14:56]

1970s decline of New York and saving Radio City Music Hall

Context: New York's rough 1970s and threatened movie palaces

Chuck describes New York City in the 1970s and early 1980s as shockingly rough when you look at photos from that era[19:42]
Josh notes that many grand movie palaces struggled after suburbanization and the decline of big downtown theaters; some did not survive, while others, like the Fox Theatre in Atlanta and Radio City, nearly closed[20:21]
Radio City Music Hall was facing potential shutdown and demolition, with plans reportedly to turn it into a parking lot[20:42]

Advocacy efforts to save Radio City

John Belushi went on the Saturday Night Live "Weekend Update" news desk to rail against the possible demise of Radio City Music Hall[22:32]
The Rockettes themselves spoke up, emphasizing that Radio City was their home and an iconic venue, and offered to help raise awareness and funds[22:32]
Their efforts led to Radio City Music Hall being placed on the National Register of Historic Places and designated as a New York City landmark[23:11]
Josh notes that about 1,200 buildings in New York have landmark status, but only around 110 interiors do, and Radio City's interior is one of the protected ones due to its beauty[22:32]

Programming missteps and long dark periods

Radio City management insisted on exclusive bookings, wanting to be the only theater in town showing a given movie, which narrowed their pool of available films[24:09]
They also preferred G‑rated movies and had strict screening criteria, which further limited options[24:17]
As a result, they sometimes went weeks with no suitable films, leaving the venue closed and the Rockettes not performing[24:27]

Rockettes on the road: Tahoe, Vegas, and Sammy Davis Jr.

Union gains and touring rights

During the 1970s, the Rockettes felt their talent was being wasted by sitting idle when films weren't booked[24:45]
Through their union, they secured the right to take their show on the road while Radio City was dark[25:51]
They began touring to places like Lake Tahoe and Las Vegas, building their reputation beyond New York[25:07]

Sammy Davis Jr.'s admiration for the Rockettes

Sammy Davis Jr. became a huge fan, reportedly attending their shows night after night in Vegas or Tahoe[25:15]
He was fascinated enough that he once surprised the troupe by joining them on stage for a number he knew by heart from seeing the show so often[25:29]
Josh and Chuck affectionately refer to him as "little Sammy" and call him a great guy, suggesting they'd like to do an episode on him someday[25:19]

Later decades: super bowls, inaugurations, and controversy

Diversifying appearances and holiday shows

The Rockettes appeared at the Super Bowl halftime show in 1988, an example of their efforts to stay current and visible[26:05]
In the 1990s and beyond they continued to perform at various venues while maintaining their annual Christmas-related shows, such as the Radio City Christmas Spectacular and holiday specials[26:34]
They performed at the inauguration of George W. Bush and later agreed to dance at Donald Trump's inauguration, which generated significant controversy[26:38]

New York Spring Spectacular and fallout from 2016 inauguration

They had revived an Easter show under the new name "New York Spring Spectacular" the year before the 2016 election[26:59]
They took a year off from the spring show and, according to Chuck, do not seem to have returned to it after the controversy over performing at Trump's inauguration[27:01]
Josh notes that the Rockettes are often seen as "America personified," so the fierce national debate around their participation in the inauguration was a huge and unusual internal crisis for the organization and dancers[27:12]

Being a Rockette: job structure, pay, and no stars

Typical Rockette career length and equal pay model

Chuck and Josh estimate that a 10‑year Rockette is considered long‑tenured; one dancer, likely named Lindsay Howe, has reportedly been a Rockette for about 14 years[32:30]
Despite differences in tenure, a veteran Rockette like Lindsay Howe earns the same amount as a first-year Rockette[33:07]
All Rockettes do the same work, same hours, and receive the same pay; a few are designated as faces of the brand and are allowed more media exposure, but their compensation remains the same[33:01]
The philosophy is that the troupe, not individuals, is the star-there are meant to be no standouts, only a unified line[33:52]

Unionization and seasonal income

The Rockettes are unionized dancers and make most of their annual income during the holiday season[34:03]
For two months of seasonal work, they walk away with around $40,000, which Chuck notes is not bad for that period but reflects a very intense workload[34:09]
Their union contract provides year-round benefits even though they are seasonal contract workers[36:21]
Josh compares their per-show pay-about $135 per show-to standard union wages for Broadway dancers and actors, noting the overtime from multiple daily shows is what makes the total income higher[40:53]

Rockette Summer Intensive dance program

Prospective dancers can attend the Rockette Summer Intensive, a program where attendees spend about six hours a day over roughly a week learning choreography, conditioning methods, injury prevention, and business aspects[34:24]
Participation in the intensive is not required to audition, but it helps; Chuck says they "place a lot" of Rockettes from it[34:47]
Josh cites a statistic that out of about 1,000 people who have taken the program, 60 have gone on to become Rockettes, illustrating how competitive it is[34:56]

Workload, schedule, and physical demands

Daily show schedules and multiple casts

There are 36 Rockettes on stage in a performance but 80 certified Rockettes overall[35:59]
They use a morning cast and an afternoon cast, with four swings (understudies) for each, to cover injuries and absences[36:03]
The Rockettes perform six days a week; casts alternate to give each other days off, but this still results in days with up to four performances for individual dancers[35:54]
On some days, a Rockette performs four 90‑minute shows, leading to about 1,200 high kicks per day during peak periods[36:59]

High-kick counts, costume changes, and toll on the body

Rockettes are expected to be fit enough to execute the iconic high kicks up to 1,200 times a day when shows are stacked[35:12]
They face numerous costume changes, including one particularly intense change between the "Parade of the Wooden Soldiers" and a New York Christmas number that must be completed in 78 seconds[35:29]
The wooden soldier costumes are described as especially complex, making the 78‑second costume change extremely challenging[35:44]
A New York Times article they reference describes how even ultra‑fit Rockettes say there is no way to fully prepare your body for the demands of the season[37:19]
One dancer said that at the end of a long day, even taking off her stockings is laborious due to exhaustion[37:36]
Depending on commute and schedule, some dancers are awake, commuting, rehearsing, or performing for up to 20 hours in a day during the season[37:45]

Camaraderie, lifestyle, and seasonal rhythm

Why dancers still love the job

Despite the grueling schedule and physical strain, Rockettes interviewed in the article all say it's the only job they want[37:56]
They describe the troupe as a great sorority and sisterhood and express pride in being among roughly 3,000 women who have ever been Rockettes[38:01]
Josh notes that being a Rockette is a particularly good gig for dancers who do not sing, since many other high-level dance jobs require singing ability as well[38:38]

Seasonal residence and off-season work

Many Rockettes do not live in New York year-round; instead, they move there seasonally, living in the city from around September through the end of December[39:02]
After the season, they return home, where $40,000 earned in a couple of months may go further than in New York, unless home is somewhere expensive like San Francisco[39:13]
Off-season, many work as Pilates instructors, nutritionists, fitness instructors, or dance teachers while waiting for the next Rockette season[36:15]
Rockettes are increasingly asked to work more months of the year, acting as ambassadors, creating YouTube content, and participating in promotional activities tied to the brand[40:18]

Auditions, rehearsals, and yearly cycle

Even long-tenured Rockettes must audition each April alongside newcomers; being invited back does not exempt them from the audition process[39:48]
Once cast, they spend the months leading up to the season getting into peak condition[40:04]
Formal rehearsals start around September and run six hours a day, six days a week for about six weeks before the show opens[40:01]
Performances for the Christmas Spectacular typically run from mid‑November through at least December 31st; Josh notes he also saw tickets listed for January 1st[40:13]

Modernizing the Rockettes under Linda Haberman

Shift in tone, feminist framing, and behind-the-scenes visibility

Director/choreographer Linda Haberman took over the show in the mid‑2000s (Josh cites around 2008) and significantly updated its style[43:03]
She aimed to make the Rockettes more pro‑feminist and "you go, girl" in tone, emphasizing their work ethic and individuality rather than just their appearance[42:26]
The public began seeing them rehearsing in practice gear instead of only in full costume, which humanized them and presented them more as working professionals[43:29]
Josh notes long‑standing criticism that the Rockettes had been portrayed as nothing but "teeth and legs," an uber‑woman created by combining identical-looking dancers[43:42]
Haberman intentionally tried to unravel that objectifying image and reframe the Rockettes as individual people within a precision ensemble[44:09]

Updating the Christmas Spectacular's content and effects

The Christmas Spectacular, which some see as kitschy or old-fashioned Americana, was updated with more visual effects, including 3D elements in recent years[44:30]
Josh describes a modern storyline involving a girl who wants a violent video game and a mom who uses the show's narrative to highlight why that might not be ideal[44:52]
Chuck says he's glad they refreshed the production, arguing that a beloved American tradition can be updated while keeping its core appeal[45:22]
He adds that you can highlight dancers as humans and individuals while still preserving the desired uniformity and precision onstage[45:26]

Representation, diversity, and earlier homogeneity

Late integration of women of color

It was not until 1985 that the Rockettes had their first woman of color, a Japanese dancer named Setsuko Maruhashi[46:06]
In 1988, their first African-American Rockette, Jennifer Jones, joined the troupe[46:22]

Markert's rationale for visual sameness

According to Josh, founder Russell Markert argued that including dancers of different skin colors would disrupt the visual unity of the line[46:38]
He was reportedly so fixated on homogeneity that dancers could even get in trouble for having a son, suggesting he wanted to control many aspects of their lives[46:52]
Josh notes that late-20th-century values and Markert's passing led to increased inclusion of women of color, demonstrating that diversity did not damage the precision or visual appeal of the line[47:02]

Personal interest in seeing the show and technical tidbits

Desire to attend the Christmas Spectacular

Neither Josh nor Chuck has seen the Rockettes' Christmas Spectacular live in person[47:26]
They say they want to go someday and mention specific segments they look forward to, such as the live nativity with a real camel and donkeys and the "Parade of the Wooden Soldiers" domino-fall routine[48:13]

Microphones in shoes and tap sound

Chuck shares that Rockettes have microphones embedded in the heels of their shoes to amplify their tap sounds[47:45]
Josh says they previously used recordings of tap sounds but later figured out how to broadcast the dancers' actual tapping[47:59]

Listener mail: search and rescue dog training story

Setup: volunteer as a SAR "victim"

Chuck reads an email from listener Ryan whose father is on a search-and-rescue (SAR) team in Michigan's Upper Peninsula[48:32]
The team needed someone to play the "victim" for a training exercise, and Ryan volunteered[48:51]

Ryan's attempts to fool the SAR dog

Ryan set off into heavily wooded terrain and tried various tricks to confuse the tracking dog and handler[48:59]
• He ran in circles and doubled back over his own trail
• He threw off his hat along the way
• He found some garbage and rolled around in it to try to mask his scent
Once satisfied with his efforts, he hid in a bush on a hill where he could watch the dog and handler track him[49:16]

Dog's performance and outcome

After Ryan phoned the handler to say he was in position, the dog quickly retraced his trail almost step by step[49:38]
• The dog followed all his circles and tracked to where he had thrown his hat
• The dog even went into the garbage pile where Ryan had rolled to disguise his scent
The dog found him in short order, to the surprise of Ryan and the onlookers who had thought his evasive tactics were clever[49:57]
Ryan emphasizes he was never in real danger, so the experience was enjoyable, unlike real SAR incidents[50:03]
He thanks the hosts for keeping him company on overnight shifts and asks for a shout-out to his girlfriend Taryn, which Chuck delivers[50:15]

Hosts' reaction and appreciation of SAR dogs

Josh and Chuck praise Ryan's enthusiasm in trying to fool the dog and laugh at how easily the dog outperformed him[50:33]
They thank Ryan, Taryn, and the SAR dog (which Josh jokingly names Scruffy) for listening and for their work[50:39]

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Extreme precision and teamwork can create outcomes that no single individual could achieve, as seen in the Rockettes' transformation of dozens of dancers into a visually unified "one" onstage.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your work or personal life could tighter coordination with others produce results that you could never reach alone?
  • • How might you change your preparation or communication habits to support more precise, reliable collaboration with a team you're part of now?
  • • What is one concrete step you can take this week to clarify roles and timing with collaborators so your collective output feels more seamless?
2

Traditions stay alive by evolving-updating content, technology, and representation can renew something beloved without losing its core identity.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What long-standing process or tradition in your life or organization feels outdated but still worth preserving at its core?
  • • How could you introduce one modern element-whether in tools, storytelling, or inclusivity-that would make that tradition feel relevant to today's audience or participants?
  • • Which stakeholders do you need to involve or get buy-in from before making an evolution to a cherished ritual or product?
3

Clear labor structures and collective bargaining can protect people doing demanding, glamorous-sounding work from being exploited and help make intense bursts of effort sustainable.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In your current role, where are expectations or workloads high but protections, boundaries, or compensation unclear?
  • • How could you and your peers more effectively advocate-formally or informally-for fairer terms when work is especially grueling or time-bound?
  • • What specific policy, agreement, or norm could you propose in the next month that would make your team's workload more sustainable?
4

Camaraderie and shared purpose can make extremely hard work not only bearable but deeply meaningful, as many Rockettes describe the troupe as a cherished sisterhood despite punishing schedules.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Which groups or teams in your life give you that sense of belonging and shared purpose, and which ones feel purely transactional?
  • • How might you intentionally build more connection-through rituals, shared challenges, or support-within one important team you're part of?
  • • What is one action you can take this week to recognize or support a colleague in a way that strengthens your sense of being "in it together"?
5

Public advocacy and storytelling can play a crucial role in preserving cultural and civic assets, as the Rockettes and their allies did when they helped save Radio City Music Hall from demolition.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What cultural, community, or institutional asset in your world feels worth protecting but potentially vulnerable to neglect or short-term thinking?
  • • How could you use your skills-whether in communication, organizing, or relationship-building-to raise awareness or support for something you value?
  • • What is one small advocacy step you could take in the next month (writing, speaking, volunteering, or donating) to help preserve something important to your community?
6

Superficial uniformity often hides deep individuality; systems that acknowledge both-like featuring individual Rockettes while maintaining a precision line-tend to be more resilient and relatable.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where are you currently expected to "blend in" at the expense of your individuality, and where is that necessary versus unnecessarily limiting?
  • • How could you highlight your unique strengths or story in a way that still supports your team's shared goals and brand?
  • • What adjustments could be made in your organization to give people more room to be seen as individuals without sacrificing necessary standards or consistency?

Episode Summary - Notes by Blake

Selects: Rockettes: Still Kicking After All These Years
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