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Planet Money

A new experiment in remote work ... from the inside

with Darlene George, Susan Sharon, Preston Thorpe, Glauber Costa, Randall Liberty

Published November 7, 2025
View Show Notes

About This Episode

Planet Money examines Maine's experiment with allowing incarcerated people to hold remote jobs for market-rate wages, focusing on the stories of grants coordinator Darlene George and software engineer Preston Thorpe. Reporter Susan Sharon and Corrections Commissioner Randall Liberty explain how prison education led to remote work opportunities, how earnings are handled and prioritized for restitution and fees, and the ethical debates and incentive problems that arise when prisons collect a share of those wages. The episode contrasts Maine's guarded approach with Alabama's far more extractive system, and explores what this could mean for recidivism, victims, and the future of prison labor.

Topics Covered

Prison system Remote work Prison labor Education system Victim restitution Recidivism Workplace dynamics Criminal justice reform Room and board fees Software engineering

Disclaimer: We provide independent summaries of podcasts and are not affiliated with or endorsed in any way by any podcast or creator. All podcast names and content are the property of their respective owners. The views and opinions expressed within the podcasts belong solely to the original hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or positions of Summapod.

Quick Takeaways

  • Maine allows a small number of incarcerated people to work fully remote, market-wage jobs from prison cells, an outgrowth of earlier efforts to provide online college education.
  • Grants coordinator Darlene George and senior software engineer Preston Thorpe both work for outside employers while serving long sentences, earning far more than typical prison jobs.
  • All wages are deposited into Department of Corrections accounts and are automatically allocated first to victim restitution, then court fees, child support, taxes, room and board, and savings.
  • Commissioner Randall Liberty supports remote work as a way to reduce recidivism, help victims get paid, and enable prisoners to support families, but he faces criticism from those who see prison as primarily punitive.
  • Maine currently takes 10% of remote workers' pay for room and board and is adding a monthly technology fee for laptop access, raising concerns about fee creep and perverse incentives.
  • Alabama's system, where the state takes 40% of incarcerated workers' wages and earns about $450 million a year, is cited as a cautionary example of how prison labor can become exploitative.
  • Some incarcerated workers have used their earnings to materially improve post-release prospects, such as Preston buying a manufactured home across from his parents' house while still in prison.
  • The program remains small-27 remote workers at the time of recording-and skewed toward people with degrees or specialized skills, though officials imagine possible expansion to jobs like call-center work.

Podcast Notes

Introduction through Darlene George's unusual work situation

Setting up Darlene's story and context

Host introduces question about "who is this Darlene George"[0:03]
• Host plays tape of local reporter asking about Darlene and how she made things happen
Darlene describes herself[0:13]
• She calls herself a regular young lady from Brooklyn, New York

Introduction of reporter Susan Sharon

Susan is a local public radio reporter at Maine Public Radio[0:23]
• She recently interviewed Darlene
Light moment about Darlene's age[0:39]
• Susan asks Darlene her age and Darlene says she'll share it off the record

Darlene's job and working conditions from prison

Description of Darlene's role as a grants program coordinator

Darlene outlines her job responsibilities[0:44]
• She monitors, scouts, and looks for grants for a local health center in Maine
• She ensures the center stays within regulations and guidelines of each grant
Her working hours and approach to workload[1:10]
• She is salaried and generally tries to work about 7 a.m. to 5 p.m.
• She says if she is needed before or after those hours, she is there
• If a project requires working Saturday or Sunday, she does it, saying "that's my job"

Revealing that Darlene works from prison

Question about distractions and "the outside"[1:29]
• Asked whether noise and distractions make her job hard, Darlene pivots to feeling supported
• She says she could not be more supported if she were on the outside
Clarifying that "outside" means outside prison[2:32]
• Darlene notes that by September it will be two years of working completely full-time from her room
• She corrects "cell" to "room," saying they do not have slamming doors
Darlene's incarceration details[1:53]
• She works remotely from the Maine Correctional Center
• She is serving a 40-year sentence and has been incarcerated for 16 years
• She believes her earliest release date is 2040 and with good time it may be reduced
• She states she is serving 40 years for murder

Distinguishing her job from typical prison labor

Her job is not a traditional prison job[2:28]
• It is not like working in the prison library, though she has done that too
• She works for a company on the outside, a regular non-prison company
Coworkers' awareness of her incarceration[2:37]
• She says her colleagues 100% know that she is incarcerated

How Darlene physically does her remote job from prison

Her workspace and interaction with guards[2:53]
• Darlene says she works literally from her room and has all her equipment there
• She hangs a sign outside to show when she is on Zoom or in meetings and asks people not to knock
• Guards doing checks can see what she is doing through the door, and she can see them

Comparison of Darlene's pay to typical prison wages

Host contrasts her pay with standard prison labor rates[3:29]
• Typical prison cook jobs can pay around 63 cents per hour
• Incarcerated people fighting active fires in California get around $7 an hour
• In seven states, prisoners work for free
Darlene's salary confidentiality inside prison[3:37]
• She is paid enough that she prefers other people in the unit not know the exact amount

Introduction of other remote workers and Preston's six-figure salary

Preston Thorpe as another example of a remote worker

Preston introduces himself and his pay level is discussed[4:14]
• Preston prefers to keep his salary private but says it matches what you'd expect for a senior-level software engineer in the U.S.
• He confirms he makes into the six figures and is okay with that being reported

Host formally introduces Planet Money episode focus

Sarah Gonzalez frames the story[4:45]
• She welcomes listeners to Planet Money and says the show will feature reporting from Maine Public Radio's Susan Sharon
• The story is about a new experiment in prisons: remote jobs paying fair wages
• Maine was the first state to do this and three other states have followed
Key questions the episode will explore[5:09]
• How a seemingly standard thing like having a job and paycheck works in a restricted place like prison
• What this arrangement is like for the incarcerated workers
• What it is like for employers who choose to hire incarcerated workers
• How the prison system is handling the new prison economy that has emerged

Origins of remote work in Maine prisons and connection to education

Sarah's conversation with reporter Susan Sharon

Sarah thanks Susan and praises her reporting approach[6:07]
• Sarah notes that Susan did what Planet Money loves: following the full thread of the story
Susan explains how remote work in prison started[6:31]
• She says growth of remote work came as a result of COVID
• Some people in prison were taking college classes and those classes moved online during the pandemic
• This shift sparked the idea that incarcerated students could take laptops into their cells to do online classes
From online education to remote jobs[7:09]
• The idea arose that if prisoners could have laptops for homework, they might also use them for real outside-world jobs
• Susan describes remote work as an outgrowth of prison education
• In Maine prisons, some incarcerated people have earned bachelor's degrees, master's degrees, and there are several PhD candidates
• Officials began asking what to do next with people serving several years who had gained higher education credentials
• The answer was to explore better work opportunities, including remote jobs

Scale and rarity of remote jobs in Maine prisons

Number of participants to date[7:18]
• Since the program started, only 45 people in Maine prisons have gotten remote jobs
Difficulty of getting a job with a record[8:15]
• Susan notes that typically you would not get a job because you are incarcerated

Preston Thorpe's path to a high-paying remote software job

Preston's background and offenses

Preston's self-description and sense of purpose[8:13]
• Preston is 33 years old and has always been a computer guy, a self-described computer nerd since age 13
• He says having this job gives his life purpose and that there is no situation that would make him risk losing his job or computer
How his computer skills contributed to his crimes[8:34]
• He bought drugs on the dark web and sold them
• On his second conviction he possessed a powerful synthetic opioid, much more deadly than fentanyl and capable of killing many people
Sentence and transfer to Maine[9:09]
• Preston is about nine years into a roughly 20-year sentence
• He had been in a different prison in another state where he got into a lot of trouble
• The prior facility decided they needed him out of their custody and he was transferred to Maine

Preston's turnaround in Maine and first remote job

New opportunities in the Maine prison system[9:28]
• Once in Maine, Preston began seeing possibilities such as school and picking up coding again
• He did very well and remained discipline-free
First remote employment[9:24]
• Preston eventually secured a remote job as a lead principal engineer for a nonprofit advocating for education in prisons

Contribution to open-source project and discovery by Turso

Preston's contributions to SQLite rewrite[9:43]
• Having a laptop in his cell all day and night for approved uses, Preston began contributing to a major open-source coding project
• The project involved a company attempting to rewrite the SQLite database in Preston's favorite programming language
• SQLite is described as the most prevalent database on the web, present on every cell phone and computer
• Anyone could contribute to the project, and Preston became a top contributor repeatedly
Turso CEO Glauber Costa notices Preston[10:20]
• Glauber says Preston was among four or five people who did very high-quality work and stuck with the project
• He was struck by Preston's contributions and looked him up on GitHub
• Glauber discovered from Preston's profile that he was in prison and found it hard to believe at first
Initial contact and hesitation to hire[11:13]
• Two weeks after discovering Preston's profile, Glauber sent him a message
• Glauber assumed communication would be impossible but learned Preston could do video calls and was in a program that allowed him to work a job from prison
• Glauber did not immediately offer a job, likening it to not wanting to date a friend for fear of harming the friendship
Decision to hire Preston at Turso[11:13]
• Over time, Turso engineers kept saying they needed to hire Preston
• Glauber realized the only barrier was Preston being in prison and decided, "Why wait? Let's just do it now."
• He actually opened a position specifically for Preston

Background checks and compliance challenges

Compliance concerns around hiring someone in prison[11:53]
• Turso is a tech company dealing with confidential data, with strict data security compliance rules
• Preston had to pass a background check, which Glauber expected to be the hardest part
• Glauber told security consultants he was about to hire someone in prison, surprising them
Outcome of the background check[12:22]
• The background check only covered the last seven years, and Preston had been in prison for nine
• As a result, Preston's record appeared completely clean, with no parking tickets, and Glauber jokes that it was cleaner than his own

Working conditions, pay, and motivation at Turso

Preston's role and pay at Turso[12:32]
• Preston is now a senior-level software engineer at Turso
• Glauber emphasizes that Preston is paid market rates and that the job was opened specifically for him, not taken from another worker
Criticism and concerns about exploiting prison labor[12:58]
• Glauber has received pushback from people who argue a job like Preston's should have gone to someone else in America
• Others have accused him of exploiting prison labor, assuming it must be cheap
• Glauber responds that Preston is paid market rates and reiterates that the position was created for him
Advantages Preston brings as an incarcerated developer[13:27]
• Glauber notes Preston has a lot of free time compared to other software developers, as he lacks other forms of entertainment
• He also highlights Preston's strong will to do better as something fantastic
Preston's self-imposed intense work schedule[13:28]
• Preston says he works constantly, but emphasizes that this schedule is self-imposed
• He promised himself he would take advantage of every hour in prison and began to view incarceration as an opportunity to make something of himself

Preston buying a house while incarcerated

Details of the home purchase[13:54]
• Preston used his earnings to buy a manufactured home while still in prison
• He notes the home is not glamorous and is a manufactured home
• The house is across the street from his parents, allowing him to plan to live near his family when released

Commissioner Randall Liberty and the economic structure of remote work in Maine prisons

Introducing Commissioner Randall Liberty

Randall's role and ironic last name[14:35]
• He identifies himself as Randall Liberty, Commissioner of the Maine Department of Corrections
• He jokes about the irony that his last name is Liberty (freedom) while he runs prisons and was also a soldier

How the first remote adjunct professor job began

Colby College request[15:01]
• A college in Maine, Colby College, asked Randall if an incarcerated person at Maine State Prison could be an adjunct professor from prison
• The individual was earning a master's degree, worked as a hospice caregiver for dying prisoners, and trained canines
• He was discipline-free, and after some consideration, Randall allowed him to teach as an adjunct professor
Seriousness of the adjunct's crime and victims' concerns[15:08]
• Randall declines to give the inmate's name because of victims and the seriousness of the crime
• He explains the man is serving a 40-year sentence for a home invasion with serious bodily injury to a young person and her parent
• The weapon used was a machete, and Randall says this is why they do not talk about the details publicly

Eligibility criteria for remote work

Openness regardless of crime severity[15:58]
• Randall has decided the opportunity to do remote work is available to anyone regardless of how serious their crime
• Requirements include having no disciplinary issues in prison and at least a GED

Randall's personal history with incarceration through his father

Impact of having an incarcerated parent[16:30]
• Before becoming a soldier, sheriff, and prison commissioner, Randall grew up with a father who was in and out of prison for burglaries, arsons, and other crimes
• He says the family suffered and grew up in a very difficult environment
Guarding his own father in jail[16:30]
• Randall later worked as a corrections officer and guarded his own father at Somerset County Jail for three months
• He was 21 years old and was in the same unit as his father
• He recalls greeting him with "Good morning, Dad" and getting "Good morning, Randy" in return
• He did not hug his father because it would not be appropriate
• Due to lack of training, he sometimes asked his father what to do, with his father telling him when it was time for count

First adjunct's earnings and spending choices

Economic outcomes for the first remote worker[17:18]
• The first adjunct professor ended up making $27,000
• He donated $1,000 to his local church as tithing
• He paid for brakes on his mother's car so it could be inspected
• He paid tuition for his nephew to go to college

How prisoners' earnings are held and disbursed

Department of Corrections control over accounts[18:03]
• Randall confirms he has access to information on how the adjunct spent his money because all monies earned go into internal accounts at the Maine Department of Corrections
• Employers direct-deposit wages not to the employee but to the Department of Corrections
• If incarcerated workers want to use their money, they submit a request to the DOC finance department indicating what they want to pay for
• A check is then issued to the outside party, and it can take about a week to release the money

What incarcerated workers can buy inside prison

Permitted purchases and perks[18:33]
• Inside prison, they can use money mainly to buy better snacks and better food for their cells, plus some other perks
• They can buy a TV and a game station
• Randall says Preston would certainly have a game console, TV, and the best snacks in his room along with his laptop

Fee structure, victim restitution, and debates over incentives

Pushback that prison should be punitive

Arguments against perks and money for prisoners[19:18]
• Randall acknowledges some people say prison should be punitive and that incarcerated people should not get perks or significant money
Randall's argument emphasizing restitution and responsibility[19:12]
• He points out that people with addiction issues may commit 30 or 40 burglaries before being caught, ending up owing around $100,000 in restitution
• Remote work at fair wages allows them to pay that debt down while still incarcerated

Priority order for wage allocation

Randall's list of priorities for earnings[19:56]
• Randall created a list of priorities for how earnings are allocated
• Victim restitution is priority number one
• There are also court fees and fines, as many people leave prison around the country with bills for things like the stenographer, judge, and the arrest itself
Specific percentages taken from paychecks[20:04]
• While in prison, 25% of a worker's salary goes to victim restitution
• Once restitution is paid off, then 25% goes to court fees and fines
• If workers owe child support, that is deducted from their paycheck automatically before reaching the Department of Corrections
• State and federal taxes are also taken out
• They pay 10% of their salary for room and board
• Another 10% goes into a savings account for when they are released
• The remaining money sits in the incarcerated person's DOC account for them to use as they wish via requests

Income levels and benefits for remote workers

Total earnings and salary ranges[20:47]
• Randall says that last year, people working remote jobs behind bars earned about $400,000 in gross income
• The Department of Corrections reports full-time remote workers earned between $40,000 and more than $90,000 a year
Access to external-style benefits[21:12]
• Some incarcerated remote workers receive full benefits packages
• Benefits can include medical and dental insurance
• Randall says some workers receive healthcare for their families while they are incarcerated
• Some also have retirement plans such as 401(k), tuition reimbursement, paid sick days, and paid vacation

Room and board fees and potential for fee increases

Current room and board revenue[21:58]
• The Department of Corrections takes 10% of each worker's salary for room and board
• Last year, Maine prisons collected about $40,000 in room and board fees from remote workers
• Randall says this is a contribution, not phenomenal, but still revenue
Concerns about fee creep and perverse incentives[22:28]
• The host asks whether fees could rise to 20%, 30%, or 40% as more inmates work remotely
• Randall concedes that such increases could happen in theory

Comparison to Alabama's prison work program

How Alabama structures work-release pay[22:04]
• In Alabama, some prisoners are allowed to leave prison daily to work at places like McDonald's and Burger King
• They generally earn about $7 an hour
• The Alabama Department of Corrections takes 40% of their salary
• Alabama makes about $450 million a year from its share of prisoners' wages
Potential incentive problems in such systems[22:28]
• Some people and economists argue there is roughly a half-billion-dollar incentive to keep people in prison and a possible disincentive to grant parole
• With that context, the host questions whether Maine's model could evolve into something more exploitative

Randall's stance against exploitation and on roots of incarceration

Assurances about not balancing budgets on prisoners[22:23]
• Randall responds "Not on my watch" regarding the idea of exploitation or high percentage take
• He says his department has no interest in balancing the state budget on the backs of incarcerated people
• He notes that many in prison are there due to mental health issues, substance use disorder, poverty, neglect, trauma, and learning disabilities
• He asserts those are not the people on whose backs budgets should be balanced

New technology fee for laptops

DOC request to legislature to add a technology fee[24:33]
• The Maine DOC asked the legislature for permission to charge a fee to people in prison who want a laptop
• Randall says DOC currently has no funds for technology and argues that like people on the outside, incarcerated remote workers should help pay for tech and internet
• He characterizes the proposed fee as a small amount
Clarification of fee size[24:08]
• Pressed for specifics, Randall initially says he does not have the bill in front of him but calls it small money
• The host clarifies that the fee could be between $10 and up to $35 per month
• The host notes that even in Maine, fees are growing

Randall's limited time in office and worries about the future

Concerns about future commissioners raising fees[24:40]
• Randall is asked whether he worries that after he leaves, others could raise fees to Alabama-like levels
• He acknowledges that this is a challenge and notes he has 14 months left before a new prison commissioner is appointed
• The host reiterates concern that the next person could keep the program but increase the percentage taken so people leave with nothing
Randall's strategy: proof of concept and data[26:02]
• Randall says they aim to create programs with proof of concept supported by data
• He cites that 65% of individuals nationwide return to custody, and taxpayers need a better return on investment
• In Maine, he says the return-to-custody rate is 21%, and claims "this works"
• He says he can only set an example locally in Maine of a better way of doing corrections
• He frames their approach as consistent with treating incarcerated people with dignity and respect

Current scale of remote work and possible future expansion

Number and profile of remote workers in Maine

Current participation[26:58]
• At the time of the episode, there are 27 people in Maine prisons with remote jobs
• Participants tend to be people with degrees like Darlene or unique skills like Preston
Why Maine may not scale like Alabama[27:06]
• Some say Maine will never resemble Alabama, where thousands of prisoners generate large revenue, because not everyone has the requisite skills
• Not every employer will choose to hire people who are incarcerated

Envisioned future roles such as call center work

Potential expansion beyond highly skilled roles[27:28]
• Randall can imagine a future where incarcerated people without special skills have access to good-paying remote jobs
• He suggests call-center work as an example of such potential jobs

Closing remarks and credits

Pointers to related Planet Money content

Suggestions for further listening[27:28]
• Sarah notes there are other Planet Money episodes about the cost of incarceration and the economics of prisons linked in the show notes

Listener reviews and production credits

Encouragement to leave reviews[27:54]
• Sarah encourages fans to leave ratings and reviews on podcast apps, saying they help others find the show
Example listener review[27:58]
• She reads a review from listener Traven Adventure, who thanks NPR for hosting the podcast and calls it enlightening and entertaining
Staff credits[28:06]
• The episode was produced by Sam Yellow Horse Kessler with reporting help from Vito Emanuel
• It was edited by Jess Jang, fact-checked by Sierra Juarez, and engineered by Robert Rodriguez with help from Patrick Murray
• Executive producer is Alex Goldmark
• Special thanks are given to Mara Sanchez at Alliance for Higher Education in Prison and to Susan Sharon for sharing her reporting
• Sarah signs off as being from NPR and thanks listeners for listening

Lessons Learned

Actionable insights and wisdom you can apply to your business, career, and personal life.

1

Creating meaningful work opportunities for incarcerated people can transform idle time into a powerful tool for rehabilitation, skill-building, and future stability while still honoring obligations to victims.

Reflection Questions:

  • • What constructive ways could you use otherwise idle or unstructured time in your own life to build skills or improve your future options?
  • • How might you design your current work or side projects so that they not only benefit you but also repair or give back to others you may have impacted?
  • • What is one concrete habit you could adopt this month to turn "dead time" in your schedule into deliberate practice or learning time?
2

The way financial incentives are structured around any program-including prison labor-can create powerful, sometimes perverse, motivations, so systems should be designed with clear priorities and safeguards.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your work or organization might existing incentive structures be unintentionally encouraging the wrong behaviors or outcomes?
  • • How could you redesign one policy, metric, or compensation scheme you influence so that it better aligns with your real goals and values?
  • • When you evaluate a program or opportunity, how often do you stop to ask who financially benefits and what long-term incentives that creates?
3

Second-chance hiring and focusing on demonstrated behavior and skills-rather than solely on past mistakes-can unlock exceptional talent that others overlook.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Are there candidates, collaborators, or colleagues you currently discount because of their history rather than their present behavior and capabilities?
  • • How might expanding your criteria for trust and opportunity (while still managing risk) widen your access to high-potential people?
  • • What guardrails or vetting processes could you put in place that would let you safely give more "second chance" opportunities in your professional or personal life?
4

Transparency and clear allocation of shared resources (like wages subject to deductions) help maintain trust in a system, even when participants must contribute to multiple obligations.

Reflection Questions:

  • • In areas where you control or share money or resources, how transparent are you about how those resources are allocated and why?
  • • What is one process in your team, family, or organization where clearer rules or priority lists could reduce resentment or confusion?
  • • If you had to explain your current financial obligations and priorities to someone affected by them, what would you change to make them feel more fair and understandable?
5

Investing in education and structured responsibility for people in difficult circumstances can significantly reduce harmful cycles, such as recidivism, and yield better returns for society.

Reflection Questions:

  • • Where in your community, workplace, or family could investment in education or structured responsibility make the biggest long-term difference?
  • • How might you apply the idea of "earning responsibility"-through demonstrated behavior and learning-to roles you assign or promotions you support?
  • • What concrete step could you take this year to support an educational or training opportunity for someone who is currently marginalized or constrained?

Episode Summary - Notes by Parker

A new experiment in remote work ... from the inside
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